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Thread: Time to lose this loser Top Four Mentality

  1. #11
    Yes some really good points there and enjoyed reading the different views. I would just like to pick up the winning mentality one because I feel this is a good one. If you look at our most recent successful period which was early 2000 under Houllier it all stated with winning the League Cup against Birmingham we then went on to win a treble which in turn provided us with the platform to go on and qualify for top four. If you ask Liverpool fans under the age of 30 which is the greatest tune then apart from Istanbul they will nearly all say the treble season nobody will say finishing top four season 2007 or 2009 etc.
    I just think people have got it unbelievably wrong by thinking that finishing top four will give us all thosre things posters have said, I think what they said is what should happen but it won't with these owners we have, they are not here to bring success but to make profit so any money we receive for qualifying will be going into there business portfolio and only a limited amount on players just enough to keep fans engaged and ticking over.
    I don't know why fans think by qualifying for champions league we will suddenly be ale to compete with City, Chelsea and United, why is that when a club like Arsenal with bigger stadium, financial clout, fanbase and recent history can't compete either.

    I don't know about people being taken in by fake news but there's certainly Liverpool fans thinking top four and everything will be ok...

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insidious View Post
    Thank you miller.

    I'll be copy pasting my post from another thread yesterday as it's relevant to this one - once I'm at my PC.

    Just look at the Rafa years. Yes, we were content with settling for a top four spot in the seasons we didn't win things in the sense that the vast majority of us wouldn't have said "if we finish outside the top four, he goes" (most of us were gutted when he left) but we had no plan to "settle" for that for years on end - we wanted to compete, which we did - Champion's League quarter-finals and semi-finals were the norm for us and we were never "thumped" on aggregate - losses were always relatively narrow - plus we had a League challenge, an FA Cup and a Europa League semi-final.

    For me, in terms of "where we want to be" it's about becoming a trophy vacuum like 70's and 80's Liverpool or 90's and 00's United - matching the sort of consistency we had under Benitez would be a marvellous step in that direction and we simply don't get there without first getting the baby step of actually finishing 4th out of the way to start with.

    We can't magically become England's Bayern overnight - nor do I think any side could - though we may sadly see Chelsea and City create a duopoly akin to Spain's League. If that is to be the case, we can hopefully become the equivalent of Atletico.

    Belittling the first step on the path to greatness won't exactly get us motivated and out the front bloody door, so why do it?
    I don't generally agree with Mourinho, but I kind of agree with what he said recently, in that the top 6 in the Premier League are all so rich and powerful that it is very unlikely there will be a single team (or two teams) to constantly win the competition. Yes, Chelsea and City are extremely rich, more so than us. But we still have a turnover of over 300mil, making us the 9th richest club in the world (if I recall correctly). That's huge. We can't complain about lack of money. And it does give us the platform to build a solid team to fight for the Premier League or any other trophy.

    The monopoly or duopoly in Spain and Germany are as a result of Real, Barca and Bayern having turnovers of around 500mil, and the next clubs having less than 100mil, and the smaller clubs having 20-30mil turnover.

    As such, I think the most important thing is to have a good manager (and if necessary a sporting director) who will know exactly who to spend that money on and how to use the respective players.
    YNWA

  3. #13
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    Copy+paste from another thread as I said I would, addressing the thread title/OP;

    The issue is cyclical and symbiotic.

    Top four = Champion's League.
    Champion's League = attractive club to better players and money for fees/wages.
    Money+better players = further attractiveness to more of the better players.
    Better players+tp manager = trophies.
    Trophies = winning mentality + attractiveness to the better players.
    Enough of the better players+top manager = juggling trophy competitiveness and a top four spot.
    Top four spot, season-in, season-out, + top manager = maintenance of status quo to ensure your place at the Champion's League dining table to the detriment of rivals.

    It's an endless struggle of survival and power plays. If we compare to chess, attaining Champion's League football is the equivalent of a good opening move. Nobody thinks it is the "be all and end all" but given that there is a limited amount of chess boards and those in control didn't let us play for a long time, we're damn excited to be at the table again, contemplating our opening move, as opposed to observing others from a distance.

    Real success without Champion's League football is very rare. Sod winning a solitary battle like Leicester - I want us to win the War. We saw the early stages of Dynasty-building with Rafa - unfortunately the game was rigged there. Klopp made Dortmund a force to be reckoned with and got them fans the world over. A decent Champion's League run for ourselves is very plausible given our record against the better sides in our League. Klopp+good players+European nights at Anfield is a combination that yields enormous potential. If there are fans here who can't get excited about that, especially after our antics last season against Dortmund then I feel a bit sorry for them.

    It all starts with a top four spot. First rung on a tall ladder that can go as far as we're willing and able to climb. The opening move on the board. Without the opening move, we never have the chance to Checkmate the opposition King. I'm just delighted we might be at the table again, irrespective of our owners or other people's expectations for the club.
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbrandt View Post
    I don't generally agree with Mourinho, but I kind of agree with what he said recently, in that the top 6 in the Premier League are all so rich and powerful that it is very unlikely there will be a single team (or two teams) to constantly win the competition.
    I think it's very plausible that those two teams could dominate, though of course am hoping they don't and shrewd work from ourselves/Spurs/Arsenal/United could break up such a duopoly - but with having 6 sides fighting for 4 spots, I think it'll come down to who has a Champion's League presence the most often and City and Chelsea as a pairing are the two clubs that I think are most capable of qualifying for top four season-in, season-out, with the other 4 sides (ourselves included) likely to bounce in-and-out a bit, letting the two Oil clubs gradually increase the gap.

    Of course I hope I'm wrong
    Your hobbies are rollerblading and you're also a bit of a rat-hound? Steel Wool
    Sid knows he's crazy and he likes it. Balinkay

  5. #15
    Yes some good points made, for me there are three massive Clubs in United, Chelsea and Manchester City, you then have a big gap to Arsenal and then a smaller gap to the likes of ourselves and Spurs.
    I personaly don't think there is a big six like Jose mentions think the situation we have a big three like a big two in Spain, big three in Holland and a big one in Scotland. The only reason a smaller club will win it is if the three big clubs all have a bad season at the sabe time which in turn will allow somebody to sneek in the very odd season like Leicester did last season. I think this is perfectly backed up with history so if u look at the last 12 seasons apart from Leicester the league title has always gone to the big three no coincidence they are the richest and no coincidence that no matter how good your manager is it's still not enough to overcome money. If you look at the history of the Premier League the biggest or second biggest has always won it with only Leicester City and Blackburn rovers the only clubs to win it outside of the big three and Arsenal who haven't won it for about 11 years, this proves Jose is talking rubbish and why no matter how good your manager is you can't compete with the big clubs.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spangles View Post
    Yes some good points made, for me there are three massive Clubs in United, Chelsea and Manchester City, you then have a big gap to Arsenal and then a smaller gap to the likes of ourselves and Spurs.
    I personaly don't think there is a big six like Jose mentions think the situation we have a big three like a big two in Spain, big three in Holland and a big one in Scotland. The only reason a smaller club will win it is if the three big clubs all have a bad season at the sabe time which in turn will allow somebody to sneek in the very odd season like Leicester did last season. I think this is perfectly backed up with history so if u look at the last 12 seasons apart from Leicester the league title has always gone to the big three no coincidence they are the richest and no coincidence that no matter how good your manager is it's still not enough to overcome money. If you look at the history of the Premier League the biggest or second biggest has always won it with only Leicester City and Blackburn rovers the only clubs to win it outside of the big three and Arsenal who haven't won it for about 11 years, this proves Jose is talking rubbish and why no matter how good your manager is you can't compete with the big clubs.
    By that logic, why aren't the richest clubs finishing in the top 3?
    If football was meant to be played in the air, god would have put grass in the sky.

  7. #17
    Think a smaller Club can sneak in every blue moon like a Leicester, Liverpool, Spurs or an Everton but think it's gone harder than ever last few years. I think back in early 2000 for a smaller club to get in we needed United and Arsenal to have a bad season and somebody like us to have our own house in order and have a really good season to exploit the slip up. I think we then moved on a few years to about 2005 onwards and another super Club emerged in Chelsea to go with the other two so we were then relying on three Clubs all to have a bad season at the same time then we fast forward to 2012 and Arsenal started to drop off a bit but were replaced with Manchester City who became the richest most powerful club in the world.
    The point I am making is that it's hard enough getting yourself in order without the fact that even if you do you still need 3 super Clubs in United, Chelsea and City all to be poor or in transition at the same time, closest this came for us was under Rodgers when five out of the six clubs who finished ahead of us all changed manager and were in transition also Leicester had a window last season. I think it will be extremely hard now as the big three have quite possibly the best three managers in the world managing them and all have got there first season of transition under there belts so it will be virtually impossible to exploit next season...

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spangles View Post
    Think a smaller Club can sneak in every blue moon like a Leicester, Liverpool, Spurs or an Everton but think it's gone harder than ever last few years. I think back in early 2000 for a smaller club to get in we needed United and Arsenal to have a bad season and somebody like us to have our own house in order and have a really good season to exploit the slip up. I think we then moved on a few years to about 2005 onwards and another super Club emerged in Chelsea to go with the other two so we were then relying on three Clubs all to have a bad season at the same time then we fast forward to 2012 and Arsenal started to drop off a bit but were replaced with Manchester City who became the richest most powerful club in the world.
    The point I am making is that it's hard enough getting yourself in order without the fact that even if you do you still need 3 super Clubs in United, Chelsea and City all to be poor or in transition at the same time, closest this came for us was under Rodgers when five out of the six clubs who finished ahead of us all changed manager and were in transition also Leicester had a window last season. I think it will be extremely hard now as the big three have quite possibly the best three managers in the world managing them and all have got there first season of transition under there belts so it will be virtually impossible to exploit next season...
    How would you feel if FSG gave Klopp serious money to reinforce the squad, like the 200 million recently suggested in The Echo? Would it change your opinion, and if not, why not?

    I find your views interesting, although slightly skewed by your apparent conviction that some or many fans would be happy with only top four forever. We all want the same thing: the title. I think the owners would.be very happy with the title , too.

  9. #19
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    Strive for perfection, settle for excellence.

  10. #20
    Yes Liverpool fans probably do want the title, Bournemouth and Stoke City too and I definitely know from the Evertonians I know they crave it aswell. I have mentioned in an earlier thread I really don't think FSG want the title...I really don't that's not to say they wouldn't take it if it offered itself like under Rodgers a few seasons ago. I did mention what you need to actually win the title which is going toe to toe financial wise with City, Chelsea and United this means a transfer budget of at least 200 million pounds and even then the big three could just increase there's to 300 million which is a problem. The main reason FSG don't want the title is simple...they are a business unlike City and Chelsea who both have another agenda, from day one FSG have told us they will run a tight ship and after a short time make us self sufficient which 1 million per cent means no 200 million pound transfer war chest which is what you need, the other thing why it will be impossible to win the League for us Clubs run like a business is that you only receive about 100 million pound for winning the league so do the maths, you have to basically invest 250 - 350 million pounds to win 100 million pounds not a very sound risk in any bodies book unless your a oil rich Arab or rich Russian tycoon who can afford to write it off if you don't win it.
    The FSG business strategy is an easy one, qualify for the champions league each season and turn over a tidy little profit, in order to do this you target the fourth place where you are competing with Arsenal, Spurs, Everton, West Brom and Stokes etc who don't spend obscene amounts on transfers maybe 60 million pound a season get about 80 million alone for finishing fourth then Champions League appearance and television money that's where you make a healthy profit and at the same time not risking as much of your own capital and Lessing the risk....it's a win..win situation for FSG however the only bad side about this is the part I don't agree with...FSG and Klopp to safeguard the 4th place don't compete in the domestic cups because extra games and the risk of players being injured or tired risk the chance of a top four place so this is why Klopp fields weak teams and cheats the fans.
    Like I say the only people to benefit from a top four place is John Henry and FSG and Klopp and the players because of bonuses for qualifying, there is absolutely no benefit for us fans whatsoever, our benefit comes in the shape of happiness as in winning trophies and going to days out for finals which FSG and Klopp have taken away through not competing for domestic cups which realistically are the only things a club like ours can win now...

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