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Thread: Brexit thread 2 Electric Boogaloo

  1. #1
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    Brexit thread 2 Electric Boogaloo

    If the media were starting this thread they might ask a question like this: "Are the collectivist fascist mobs of the eurocrats trying to lead the great nation on a painful path to Germanic vassalage or are the racist bigots pulling for a backwards anachronistic form of nationalistic isolationism?".

    I won't. Would love to hear the views of islanders about the situation some two and a half years after that faithful day.

    Discuss!
    Last edited by Balinkay; 14th March 2019 at 03:08 PM.
    Etiamsi omnes, ego non

  2. #2
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    Apologies in advance Bali for my incoherent rambling: we can take it in steps or parts, it's a hard topic to break down imo.

    Heres an interesting tedtalk (not beyond criticism themselves) on the subject of personality, liberals & conservatives with respect to moral authority from Jonathon Haidt.
    It explains nicely a lot of politics today. He speaks very nicely to his audience, cause hes a public speaker of repute and as hes stated before in this era one has to speak very carefully to speak on campus.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vs41JrnGaxc
    Given years ago the implications of such knowledge has been horribly overlooked in Brexit analysis and in the failed remain campaign and strategy.
    The economic arguments from both sides are tenuous and pretty unreliable. If you are for remain or brexit it is very likely that the economic argument had very little hold on you over your affinity with your own personality/self.

    Seen Stephen fry narrating some awful pieces on YouTube. He was surprised that those who lived in more diverse areas voted for remain and those who lived in more homogenous areas voted for Brexit. This however is to be expected in a view through lived personality.
    Similarly remainers question how could people on benefits or less well paid refuse the status quo. They are the ones who have experienced the rise of financial inequality the most, why should they support a status quo that has furthered their poverty relative to others.

    I predicted Brexit and trump elections correctly in the old thread in the off-topic based on such data and analysis.
    Despite the polls suggesting there was little chance of it happening. Those who expected remain & Clinton were shocked as they do not understand the area properly imo. Plus journalism surely we can agree is at an all time low?

    In time people will understand that remain & Clinton both lost out due to their own campaigning style and lack of understanding. Not only did they fail to convert those who didnt support them, they lost voters in their favour as a result.

    That and the decline and death of traditional liberalism are largely to blame for the results. Theres a war in academia presently between those who are mandating reality versus those who are using science correctly to discover reality.

    The attacks on little englanders are odd imo. The post ww2 era to the 1970s in terms of wealth distribution or levels of financial inequality is referred to as a golden age in the UK, this should be a liberal goal also. This is a good.

    Since the 1970s, more so the 1980s onwards inequality is increasing steadily. The rise in inequality is synonymous with the rise in displaced persons and many more negative consequences, health and societal. The un provide such statistics on displaced persons and the growth rate of displaced persons is well above the global population growth rate. The book affluenza is based on the impacts on society of increased inequality. Its intuitive, fairer and more just societies are the best.

    In little Britain a doctor was upper/elite class today 2 doctors (married couple) wouldn't qualify as elite/upper class.
    People dont mind a measure of inequality where justifiable but they despise increasing inequality beyond a reasonable limit, everyone should. If you watched that video above you'll see it is one of the 2 common moral authorities imprinted in our nature.

    It is odd that in liberal politics today freedom of speech and financial equality are contentious or controversial topics.

    Inquality grows within and between nations. This is driving migration and displacement, outside of bombing civilian. If you want less migrants you need less inequality. If you do not want to stop migration, often taken as a last resort, continue with policies that promote inequality.
    Analysis of economic policy shows that in the UK inequality has increased under every governemt in the UK over the last 4-5 decades.
    Analysis of cuts and handouts from government policy disproportionately impact the poor, young & elderly most. In recession they experience the brunt of cuts the most. In boom or recovery they get the least. Analysis of wealth distribution post the crash shows that pretty much all the economic growth has benefited the top 1%. A fraction of the top1% account for almost all of the economic recovery since the 08/09 crash.
    There is a global policy where the only difference between continents is the extent of increaes in inequality and the wealth distribution is starting to look feudal.

    I'd have voted brexit on principles. I wouldn't have voted in the USA election.
    I do think both results will bring huge progress to our western world. Liberalism might be returned to where it belongs as a consistent philosophy based on principles.

    What has Europe become?
    Since the inception of the euro which was an ideological desire and not a practical one weve seen power consolidated in Germany. Merkel's is Europe. The euro has benefited Germany the most and has a large part to play in the banking crisis. The policy of the euro has seen ardent capitalist critique the madness of allowing bank debt to be nationalised.
    In Ireland we took a hit the Greeks even more. Then the eu called Portugal Ireland Greece and Spain the pigs.

    Weve seen the eu criticise China for moving in on "its" fishing territories in Africa. They criticise China for paying the poorest more and giving them a better deal. That sums up Europe and global liberalism today imo. Europe will mandate you pay sky and bt for competition purposes, despise the Chinese for providing it in Africa.

    Europe has been far more concerned about Brexit than any violations of international law, like Tony Blair and the fabricated dossiers as concluded by the chilcot report.

    The eu is for peace and prosperity, look who they sell arms too. It's not consistent at all. War has been exported out of the region by and large.

    If Britain leaves the EU, which is not certain the eu has a great record of overturning elections which go against the institutes desires, then it will certainly be a massive loss. The big fear for the EU is that others join them.

  3. #3
    Questions

    1. Why did London, Scotland, Liverpool all vote to remain?

    2. Farage lied concerning NHS and immigration.

    3. How many uk MEPs are there, and which party has the most?

    4. What does Europe stand for?

    5. What does the UK pay for Europe , but gain from being in the European Union?

    6. How can you offer a referendum to the people on such a complex issue?

  4. #4
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    Awesome CC! This is exactly what I was looking for. I really want to see what went on how to understand this weird situation.

    Alright. That video by Heidt is ver entertaining - I've been lucky enough to have been exposed to these ideas of the possible absurdity of moral self righteousness when it comes to politics and history, but I've seldom seen someone put it as well as Heidt has here. I've not seen much of him, but what I have seen has been good. The idea that you should listen to your political adversaries and seek the common ground rather than the differences is painfully lost. Have had a few discussions with fellow students (I'm obviously quite young, probably even in comparison to you) on such matters. I also get the same feeling that the economic issues of the referendum didn't play much of a role in anyone's mind when voting, though that remains to be proven. As outside observers, I'm sure we could both benefit from the views of someone who actually voted for it. *AHEM* YOU ENGLISH SLOUCHES.

    I don't quite understand your next point about Fry - Maybe what he meant was that those in homogenous areas had no reason to fear immigration since it had not come to them in the forty years the UK's been in the EU?

    In general I'd like to hear a bit more about your views on financial inequality. I don't think financial inequality in and of itself is an issue - poverty is. I think you're kind of mixing up the two things with your family of doctors example - surely the issue isn't that there's someone 1 000 000 times richer than them but that they can't afford a decent life while (as I'm sure we'll all agree) both doing more than enough to earn it? Could you also tell me a little more about what "little England / Britain" means? I've heard the term many times, but never quite understood it. I'd also be interested to hear what you mean by "traditional liberalism". In particular I can't really understand what you mean by this paragraph:

    The attacks on little englanders are odd imo. The post ww2 era to the 1970s in terms of wealth distribution or levels of financial inequality is referred to as a golden age in the UK, this should be a liberal goal also. This is a good.
    Should even wealth distribution be a liberal goal? And why is it good?

    This might provide an interesting avenue of discussion as well:

    It is odd that in liberal politics today freedom of speech and financial equality are contentious or controversial topics.
    Are they? Also define "liberal". I think my understanding of the term might be polluted by the US's monopoly on my media intake.

    Next you talk about the growing wealth inequality (which as stated, I don't view as morally reprehensible in and of it self) around the world and the state mandated policies which are designed to keep international inequality on the rise. Could you elaborate? Isn't this just every country looking out for its national interest and trying to make its own situation as good as possible?

    The final paragraphs I frankly don't know too much about. What I will say is that if you're looking for a government that has no dirty secrets you will find none. Even the most righteous historic figures often end up having done some reprehensible things - look at the like of mother Theresa. Isn't there even a bit of a debate about Churchill's legacy going on in the UK nowadays? I'm not sure what you mean that the war has been exported out of the region?

    Furthermore, even if power is being consolidated in Germany, I wouldn't call that the worst thing in the world (without discussing the situation more concretely of course), but I am a self-confessed germanophile after all. What can I say, I like it here!

    And yes, the EU is not on stable footing. Interesting times we live in. Would be inconvenient for me if it falls apart, but hey-ho, shite happens.
    Etiamsi omnes, ego non

  5. #5
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    @dicko

    That last question interests me a lot as well. It's a moronic decision imo to give this vote to the people. From the outside it looked like a cheap power play from the prime minister who thought he'd get some political capital from it. Coincidentally I had the exact same feeling about Farage, Gove and Johnson's involvement in the whole deal. Seemed like neither of them expected or indeed wanted Brexit - they were just looking to gain political capital. Again, I don't follow UK politics too closely, so this might be complete bollocks, but that's what it looked like to me and some others here across La Manche.
    Etiamsi omnes, ego non

  6. #6
    Thorn in the Side Ltd, of which Farage is the sole director, had assets of £548,573 for the year to May 2018 – a substantial jump from assets of just over £157,000 recorded for the previous year.

    The disclosure comes as Farage was chided on Wednesday by the European parliament’s Brexit coordinator, Guy Verhofstadt, while the parliament debated the current Brexit turmoil.

    Verhofstadt claimed Farage wanted an extension to article 50 in order to keep Britain in the EU, so he can continue to have his MEP’s salary and transfer it into an offshore company.

    The irony

  7. #7
    The European union's purpose is to promote:

    peace, establish a unified economic and monetary system, promote inclusion and combat discrimination, break down barriers to trade and borders, encourage technological and scientific developments, champion environmental protection, and, among others, promote goals like a competitive global market and social progress.

    Sounds like a good idea in principle.

  8. #8
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    He's putting his money into an offshore account so he doesn't pay taxes? Is that illegal?
    Etiamsi omnes, ego non

  9. #9
    The MEP has previously admitted setting up a trust fund in an offshore tax haven that could have enabled him to cut his tax bill. Farage, who condemned tax avoiders in a speech to the European parliament, said in 2013 that he paid a tax adviser to set up the Farage Family Educational Trust 1654 in the Isle of Man.

    On leaving , MEP with 20 years 'service' will get near 170k€ pay out.

  10. #10
    Question

    1. Europe undemocratic?

    2. When are the European elections?

    3. What's the turnout %?

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