Click here for Liverpool FC personalised gift shop

Page 18 of 18 FirstFirst ... 81112131415161718
Results 171 to 179 of 179

Thread: Brexit thread 2 Electric Boogaloo

  1. #171
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    City of Self Doubt
    Posts
    13,082
    I did see that video and it was mighty impressive, but I can't really tell if it was 50k or 1000k people.

    Can you imagine what an occasion it would be if we ever win the league?
    Etiamsi omnes, ego non

  2. #172
    There will probably be a march in Manchester to protest!

  3. #173
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    City of Self Doubt
    Posts
    13,082
    Quote Originally Posted by stevie harkness View Post
    There will probably be a march in Manchester to protest!
    I'm confused. Protest agains or in support of Brexit?
    Etiamsi omnes, ego non

  4. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Balinkay View Post
    I'm confused. Protest agains or in support of Brexit?
    Against us winning the league!

  5. #175
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    City of Self Doubt
    Posts
    13,082
    Thought they'd all stay home behind their keyboards and moan how we were lucky and the refs helped…
    Etiamsi omnes, ego non

  6. #176
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    14,099
    Quote Originally Posted by Balinkay View Post
    @CCTV as I've explained in detail, once you've gone down the road of referendums, you're stuck there imo. You have to continue. The precedent has been set. That's why I don't think a third vote would be disastrous. Obviously not having one would be a better option, but considering the absurd zugzwang in which the UK finds itself, I'm just looking for the least horrible option. And I don't get the whole EU image complaint. I pay taxes to the EU. I want the EU to protect my interests first. The UK wishes to stop paying taxes to the EU. I would be somewhat annoyed if the EU were to put the interests of UK citizens before mine. Why is support for continued trade between nations not how you build peace and democracy? Trade is bedrock of modern human civilisation. Surely mutually beneficial trade agreements are good for everyone? On a more starry eyed romantic teen vain - it's only natural that Germany is pushing for more influence in Europe. They're big, rich and never got to rule the world unlike Spain, France and the UK. They feel left out!
    1) After 2 years of Brexit bashing and political incompetency the polls show that there is pretty much the same state of affairs at play. Another referendum would merely add to the division within the UK. It could well be a moot point as Europe via Germany France and Italy seems to have decided an extension is not in their interests. Its unlikely they'll permit another referendum and the inevitable one that would follow. May's deal or no deal with no peoples votes.

    2) I gather you didnt look at the video on statins etc and the abysmal state of medical science now within the eu and wider scientific community. https://www.forbes.com/sites/larryhusten/2014/01/15/medicine-or-mass-murder-guideline-based-on-discredited-research-may-have-caused-800000-deaths-in-europe-over-the-last-5-years/amp/
    "Updated)– Last summer British researchers provoked concern when they published a paper raising the possibility that by following an established guideline UK doctors may have caused as many as 10,000 deaths each year. Now they have gone a step further and published an estimate that the same guideline may have led to the deaths of as many as 800,00 people in Europe over the last five years. The finding, they write, “is so large that the only context in the last 50 years comes from the largest scale professional failures in the political sphere.” The 800,000 deaths are comparable in size to the worst cases of genocide and mass murder in recent history..... The earlier paper demonstrated the potentially large and lethal consequences of the current European Society of Cardiology guideline recommending the liberal use of beta-blockers to protect the heart during surgery for people undergoing non cardiac surgery. The guideline was flawed because it was partly based on unreliable research performed by the disgraced Poldermans (who also served as the chairman of the guideline committee). This may seem like a highly technical question but it effects many millions of people and may, as Francis and his colleagues have demonstrated, led to many thousands of unnecessary deaths. The new article, the first of two parts, makes no new scientific claims, but instead begins to consider the broader implications of the story. Cole and Francis briefly consider the dilemma of clinicians who may “feel unable to act in contravention of guideline recommendations recognized as ‘state-of-the-art’ by the European Society of Cardiology” and who may even be penalized for failing to follow guidelines....They note that more than half of the lives lost– potentially more than 400,000– may “have occurred after the research was discredited,” though some of the damage may have been mitigated if doctors changed their practice after reading about the controversy. (There was a 2 year delay after the start of the Poldermans affair until the ESC withdrew the beta-blockade recommendation.) Cole and Francis argue that much needs to be changed in the application of medical research:....In the second part of their article, to be published in two weeks, Cole and Francis will raise the possibility that the responsibility for misconduct lays not just with misguided researchers like Poldermans but also the institutions and the institutional leaders that provide uncritical support to research factories. Further, they will discuss the role of journal editors and, even, journal readers" Theres a bit more on this page and in the comments.
    https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/01/29/amp/beta-blockers-death.aspx
    "European doctors may have caused as many as 800,000 deaths in five years by following a guideline to use beta-blockers in non-cardiac surgery patients—a guideline based largely on discredited science The discredited researcher, who was fired for scientific misconduct in 2011, was also the chairman of the committee that drafted the European treatment guideline Recent research found that simply eating an apple a day might help prevent cardiovascular-related deaths in those over 50 to a similar degree as using a daily statin Even if a drug or treatment is "backed by science," this in no way guarantees it is safe or effective. Likewise, if an alternative treatment has not been published in a medical journal, it does not mean it is unsafe or ineffective.......... When flawed research is used as the basis for medical guidelines, people that shouldn't die do... All in the name of increasing profits to the drug company with reckless abandon and little to no concern for the casualties............... Most people assume that scientific integrity is somehow assured; that there are safeguards along the way, preventing fraudulent research from harming patients. Unfortunately, scientific misconduct has become a very serious and widespread problem that threatens the entire paradigm of science-based medicine—unless changes are made. Again and again, papers assessing the prevalence of scientific fraud and/or the impact this is having shows that the situation is dire and getting worse. In short, we have lost scientific integrity, and without it, "science-based medicine" is just a term without substance. Conflict of interest is another pervasive problem within the research field, and the featured article highlights a case that contains both. Beta-blockers are drugs commonly used in the treatment of high blood pressure and congestive heart failure. They work primarily by blocking the neurotransmitters norepinephrine and epinephrine (adrenaline) from binding to beta receptors, thereby dilating blood vessels, which reduces your heart rate and blood pressure. Until recently, the European Society of Cardiology (ESC) also recommended using beta-blockers in patients undergoing non-cardiac surgery. A recent article in Forbes Magazine1 highlights how medical guidelines based on questionable science may have resulted in the death of hundreds of thousands of patients in just a few years: "Last summer, British researchers provoked concern when they published a paper raising the possibility that by following an established guideline UK doctors may have caused as many as 10,000 deaths each year,2" Larry Husten, editorial director of WebMD professional news, writes. "Now, they have gone a step further and published an estimate that the same guideline may have led to the deaths of as many as 800,000 people in Europe over the last five years3... The 800,000 deaths are comparable in size to the worst cases of genocide and mass murder in recent history." Guideline Based on Discredited Research May Have Caused 800,000 Deaths The paper, originally published in the online version of the European Heart Journal,4 is a testament to the dangers of modern medicine, and why scientific rigor needs to be reestablished as the norm. As I've discussed before, scientific misconduct by medical researchers affects real people, living real lives. It could affect you. When flawed research is used as the basis for medical guidelines, people that shouldn't die do... All in the name of increasing profits to the drug company with reckless abandon and little to no concern for the casualties. The issue goes back to research done by Don Poldermans,5 a cardiovascular researcher in the Netherlands, who was fired for scientific misconduct in 2011. Some of the strongest evidence for the European Society of Cardiology's (ESC) guidelines on beta-blocker use in patients undergoing non-cardiac surgery came from Poldermans' DECREASE trial. It's well worth noting that Poldermans was also the chairman of the committee that drafted the guideline (he has since resigned from his position with the task force6). While his DECREASE trial has not as of yet been retracted, the Erasmus Medical Center in Rotterdam stated7 he was fired because he was: "…careless in collecting the data for his research. In one study, it was found that he used patient data without written permission, used fictitious data and that two reports were submitted to conferences which included knowingly unreliable data." You would think that once this was known, immediate action would result. However, it took two years before the ESC withdrew the beta-blocker recommendation once the Poldermans scandal had unraveled. This is absolutely scandalous as nearly a half of a million people died unnecessarily due to the delay. In that two-year span, many European clinicians may have felt that their hands were tied, as failing to follow guidelines can lead to being penalized—even if the doctor knows the guidelines are likely to do more harm than good. As reported by Forbes:8"
    Theres a lot more on this page^^^

    NHS costs rocket. In the mercola piece they propose from research that the over 50 population eating 1 apple a day would essentially reduce as many deaths as 17 million Brits taking 1 statin a day. The whole talk looks at this area dealing with big food and big pharma, misleading representation of statistical benefits and risks to patients, declining standards within the community....

    1) Society is struggling under rising inequality.
    2) Economies have been dying with austerity, unemployment high and access to credit notional for many in the euro.
    3) Banking oversight beyond a joke.
    4) The euro currency likewise a disaster for the EU.
    5) Medical science and research has lost its credibility. Same in other areas, VW and ecology findings a high profile case.
    6) Politics, press and police no trust in them really.
    7) Building a eu army which will offer a military threat to the USA (not a very clever move imo-remember the cold war), which no one really wants bar eu officials who believe it is the best way to compete with Russia & America (their NATO partners) - The euro bloc or the United states of Europe essentially. The cure to big blocs more bigger blocs
    8) Macron vetoing an extension unless May's deal is approved, Italy perhaps or likely to veto an extension if its approved. Following on from their dispute, some interesting points made here https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/world/france-withdraws-ambassador-to-italy-in-major-shift-to-postwar-european-politics/2019/02/07/8f9c479f-34a7-4b67-85a8-758641014e67_story.html
    The eu is destroying itself and increasing conflict between nations
    9) the oversexualisstion of children since the 1980s onwards. The answer further oversexualisation of children.
    10) the strategic underproduction of food and the wilful destruction of massive tonnage of excess foods which meet industry standards - while famine and malnourishment are common place still to this day. EU policy.
    11) the grandstanding on accepting displaced persons is appalling imo, while the underlying ideology in power is driving this rise and well above the global population growth. 1in100 persons displaced around the world today by un statistics. You can follow the rise over recent decades. Accepting migrants is a naturally empathetic response, but using this empathy to ignore the drastic increases in such people being produced is sick.
    Europe's migrant problems stem from failed states in the largely Muslim countries. Iraq - ISIS, Afghanistan- massive increase in heroin production, Libya- slave trade, Yemen- Saudis bombing fishing villages armed by USA France & Britain, Syria- Saudis trying to instill a pro-pipeline regime which will provide fuel for Europe. John Kerry who lost to Bush openly stating in Congress in recent years (maybe senate) that the Saudis will pay for the USA to do their thing in Syria, regime change. Security forces estimate 15-25% of Syrian/Islamic refugees support ISIS on some level.
    Theres not a single case of terrorism in Europe that I am aware of that has occurred in a nation which hasnt intervened in an associated territory. We see a willingness to surpress media reports on crimes whereby the justification is to prevent further retaliations. I'd say this is a grave error as the supression of such crimes when they become revealed lead to a further risk than the one purported to be prevented. It's a strategy which can only succeed by keeping stories like rotherham et al secret, we see authorities try this very tact. I think it is a sick minded strategy.
    If it was being ventured in the catholic child sex abuse scandals I think it would be more easily seen for the sickness it is, lets supress stories of priests molesting and raping minors so as to prevent a backlash against a cohort within our society.

    If this is Europe protecting your/our interests, what are our interests exactly?

  7. #177
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    14,099
    Quote Originally Posted by Balinkay View Post
    @CCTV* as I've explained in detail, once you've gone down the road of referendums, you're stuck there imo. You have to continue. The precedent has been set. That's why I don't think a third vote would be disastrous. Obviously not having one would be a better option, but considering the absurd zugzwang in which the UK finds itself, I'm just looking for the least horrible option.* And I don't get the whole EU image complaint. I pay taxes to the EU. I want the EU to protect my interests first. The UK wishes to stop paying taxes to the EU. I would be somewhat annoyed if the EU were to put the interests of UK citizens before mine.* Why is support for continued trade between nations not how you build peace and democracy? Trade is bedrock of modern human civilisation. Surely mutually beneficial trade agreements are good for everyone?** On a more starry eyed romantic teen vain - it's only natural that Germany is pushing for more influence in Europe. They're big, rich and never got to rule the world unlike Spain, France and the UK. They feel left out!
    **

    3) They are potentially, but not when they are used to manifest coercive control over independent nations to apply pressure on other nations within the eu.* Similarly you could explain why there is so much resistance to the UK having the same access to the market, without subjecting itself to political and economic rules from the eu/Germany.*Arguably the aim of control is more evident as an intent than peace. We see this same corruption in other regions.**

    4) Yes it's a rather predictable state of affairs, history repeats itself. Germany seeking to gain further economic and political control of Europe, brings Europe to the brink with two fronts now in Europe one with Britain and the other with Russia. They've brought in a lot of ethnically different displaced persons too who had a bad image. While trying to raise an eu army to antagonised the yanks. What could possibly go wrong ?***

    It amazes me how since intervening in Syria, the correct course of action even if its motives were not wholly moral Russia has become a major player in western media and politics.* It entered Syria assisting Assad and hammered ISIS. It probably did this to protect it's own interests. The Syrian conflict essentially could boil down to a pipeline and supply of gas to Europe. This has more merit imo than concerns over human rights.* John Kerry who lost to George W can be found on YouTube speaking to Congress (maybe senate) where he explicitly says the Saudi's will bankroll any American actions so long as they do their thing in Syria- regime change. Advertised as a compassionate intervention of course due to a concern over human rights, paid for by Suadi Arabia. Whie Saudis drop cluster bombs on fishing villages in Yemen declared a humanitarian crisis. Similar oil interests in Venezuela on the board too now. With elements like Twitter now reporting that Venezuela is responsible for some Russian bots.**

    Poor Russia can only influence minds to vote in elections, not change its perceived status. Now losing this slight power to Venezuela.

    https://dailystormer.name/twitter-admits-they-misidentified-russian-bots-says-theyre-actually-venezuelan-bots/
    https://dailystormer.name/twitter-admits-they-misidentified-russian-bots-says-theyre-actually-venezuelan-bots/

  8. #178
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    City of Self Doubt
    Posts
    13,082
    Hold on CC, didn't you proudly proclaim a few days ago on here that you predicted Brexit in spite of all the polls showing it wouldn't happen back then? But suddenly now polls are reliable and mean there's no need for another referendum? In all honesty I do think they're reliable in general, just asking why you had the sudden change of heart.

    I still don't get your second point. Some organisation within the EU has apparently made a horrible error (I'll take your quoted text, or the part of it I checked out at face value) and caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands. That's absolutely disgraceful! However, it in no way means that the EU is deliberately trying to act against the best interests of its people. Mistakes happen; horrible ones at that. But as you can see, when the research was discredited, the organisation acted and amended their recommended procedures. What would you have them do? At the moment a suggestion comes in that some research is wrong just immediately invalidate all the guidelines based on it without looking at it carefully? These things take years. In this case the slowness of the process caused hundreds of thousands of deaths. That does not mean the process is inherently wrong. Take vaccines for example - it takes in excess of ten years from the moment a vaccine is created to the moment the population starts receiving it. A lot of people die because of that. But there's a reason for it - you have to be supremely careful with this stuff. Obviously at some point here someone wasn't and heads need to fly. ASAP. But that in no way shows the EU is working against the interests of its citizens.

    This part really got me:

    Likewise, if an alternative treatment has not been published in a medical journal, it does not mean it is unsafe or ineffective.
    Yes. It does not. What would you have them do? Not put new treatments through their paces and just allow them to be used willy-nilly by any doctor who thinks they know best?

    To summarise - it's horrible if someone based some guideline on bad science and people died because of it. The process of admitting new guidelines must then be improved and made even more rigorous. If this was done to further some company's interests, that's deplorable. Heads must fly. However, the problem with bought research isn't one unique to the research done in the EU, it's actually horrendously widespread. How does leaving the EU fix that? Because then the righteous and incorruptible British scientists will never ever make mistakes or be forced / bought to publish papers that support someone's position?

    I understand your frustration and I wholeheartedly share it on this issue. I really do. It's, however, not obvious to me that this shows that the EU deliberately works against the interests of its people more so than any other form of government.


    As for your next points: what society is dying with inequality? Because in that TED talk you linked a few pages back countries like Germany, Belgium and Denmark were among the most equal in the world.

    I don't know enough about the Euro to comment.

    Yes, the VW (and Daimler btw, a mate of mine who works there told me they're in some deep shite) scandals are horrible. Are they a direct consequence of the existance of the EU? There have been far worse automotive scandals (non-recalls of something like 200k Chevys with fucked up breaks I think, don't quote me on that) outside of the EU in similarly developed countries. This doesn't seem like an exclusive problem, though I could be wrong.

    As I said, I'm fairly certain a lot of science is losing credibility across the globe. Ditto the press and government - just take a look at the US.

    I don't understand your views on globally displaced persons. Do you want the EU to not take in refugees at all? Or do you want the EU to somehow make people stop reproducing quite as much in certain parts of the world?

    I wholeheartedly agree about the Rotheram cover ups. Despicable. It only makes the problem worse. Was this mandated by the EU? Ditto pedo-priests?


    I think it's quite simple why the EU wants to make leaving it sting the UK. Because it's better for the EU and the countries in it this way. Why should it protect the interests of UK citizens? Obviously the EU thinks it's in a good position to get what it wants, looking more and more likely that's not the case.

    The antidote to big block is indeed more big blocks. Divided we fall and united we stand. That's one of the reasons Europe was at peace (mostly) between the Napoleonic wars and WWI. The Concert of Europe and the brilliance of the diplomats of the era. That being best epitomised by Bismarck in the latter part of the period. Build up your own strength, construct a web of alliances that ensure any war unfavourable for the aggressor, sit back and enjoy your schnapps.

    By the way, CC, thanks again for talking to be about this stuff. I really am learning a lot and getting a much better picture of the role the EU plays in my life. Don't mistake my reluctance to accept your anti-EU positions as being against them. As I've said all along, there are a lot of good reasons to not like the EU, I just want to understand more about them. Preferably without having to put too much time into it, which is where you come in. Again, thanks for that. If we ever meet each other irl, I'll buy you a beer.
    Etiamsi omnes, ego non

  9. #179
    Nearly 6million signatures.
    Generally means people are not too happy about the situation.

    People's vote.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 13th March 2019, 02:11 PM
  2. Another Firmino Thread
    By Joetan991 in forum Football Forum
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 7th March 2019, 05:33 PM
  3. Another Ramos thread !
    By philfatkid in forum Football Forum
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 26th November 2018, 05:02 PM
  4. Liverpool vs PSG (Match Thread)
    By RedNoodle in forum Football Forum
    Replies: 152
    Last Post: 20th September 2018, 11:48 PM

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •