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Thread: Brexit thread 2 Electric Boogaloo

  1. #291
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    As Corbyn put it himself in the clip above, vote and vote until you vote right.

  2. #292
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    I do agree that once the referendum is made, not following it's decision is a dangerous precedent. However, it's absurd to claim that referendums are only a problem when the elites don't like the result. You're completely right that none of them would be up in arms about this, had "Remain won", but that wouldn't change the fact that it was a decision that the average person can not reasonably be expected to make.

    Not to mention that "leaving the EU" encompasses about 20 different possible scenarios, while "Remain" encompassed only one. I repeat - this is not a binary issue and I don't think there were two clear alternatives presented to the people.

    Picture this - you want to switch your national flag - you have a referendum. "Keep it" vs "Switch it". You vote to switch it, just. Then they do switch it and the new flag has a penis on it. This is kind of what I see with Brexit. Ideally they'd have made you vote one more time on the different options for the new flag, no? Except in the case of Brexit the ability of the people to choose between the different flags is being limited since there's never going to be a referendum on the type of Brexit, since the government can't seem to work out a meaningful deal with the EU. So you'll likely end up with No-deal, which is perceived by many as the "Penis-flag" option, however true or untrue that might be.

    This is what you get when you call a referendum and apparently have no idea what the people are going to vote for and no plan how to implement said referendum. Honestly, what a shambles.

    As for bribery… yeah… doesn't look great, does it? Politics is a dirty business, as the British public is learning right now.
    Last edited by Balinkay; 5th September 2019 at 08:16 AM.
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  3. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balinkay View Post
    I do agree that once the referendum is made, not following it's decision is a dangerous precedent. However, it's absurd to claim that referendums are only a problem when the elites don't like the result. You're completely right that none of them would be up in arms about this, had "Remain won", but that wouldn't change the fact that it was a decision that the average person can not reasonably be expected to make.

    Not to mention that "leaving the EU" encompasses about 20 different possible scenarios, while "Remain" encompassed only one. I repeat - this is not a binary issue and I don't think there were two clear alternatives presented to the people.

    Picture this - you want to switch your national flag - you have a referendum. "Keep it" vs "Switch it". You vote to switch it, just. Then they do switch it and the new flag has a penis on it. This is kind of what I see with Brexit. Ideally they'd have made you vote one more time on the different options for the new flag, no? Except in the case of Brexit the ability of the people to choose between the different flags is being limited since there's never going to be a referendum on the type of Brexit, since the government can't seem to work out a meaningful deal with the EU. So you'll likely end up with No-deal, which is perceived by many as the "Penis-flag" option, however true or untrue that might be.

    This is what you get when you call a referendum and apparently have no idea what the people are going to vote for and no plan how to implement said referendum. Honestly, what a shambles.

    As for bribery… yeah… doesn't look great, does it? Politics is a dirty business, as the British public is learning right now.
    Voting to leave was very simple. If they leave on wto terms they'll have left the EU without a specific trade deal.
    If they get a trade deal and leave the eu that would be preferable, but that is being resisted as they try to force on other conditions.
    Iirc the UK has been the biggest contributor since it joined.

    People knew what they were voting for, to leave or remain. The argument is rather poor as otherwise we should go full eu and just stop voting entirely, or have votes where there is only one option on the ballot.

  4. #294
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    That's nonsense and you know it. People have little idea what the EU actually does, as evidenced by the fact that even economists can't seem to work out whether or not this whole shiteshow will lead to a recession or an economic boom.

    It's not normal to expect the average person to understand how a machine as complicated and as opaque as the EU functions and what benefits and drawbacks membership has for their own personal lives. I think it was poorly communicated by both sides of the debate what each outcome would cause and people were heavily misled by both Project Fear and the Big Red Bus.

    This is the whole reason representative democracies exist - so that someone else can go and study the law and you don't have to worry about it. But it seems Bojo Jojo isn't happy that the elected representatives of the people disagree with him and he wants to silence Parliament since they, how did you put it, "didn't get it right". It's such a shambles this whole thing.


    I don't know enough about the inner workings of the EU, but the "they don't actually vote" smacks of propaganda. It's shady as fuck, but to claim something like that is painful. Especially since you might be right! Take it from someone who's never experienced an unrigged election in their homeland.

    The UK was a willing member of the EU for a while. Now it wants to leave. They have been allowed to. That seems pretty democratic to me. How they can't work out what exactly it means to leave is beyond me. And how they didn't think about what would happen if the people chose to leave before commiting to the referendum is just a joke.

    It's a disgrace how this has been handled by both sides of the debate.
    Last edited by Balinkay; 5th September 2019 at 01:55 PM.
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  5. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balinkay View Post
    That's nonsense and you know it. People have little idea what the EU actually does, as evidenced by the fact that even economists can't seem to work out whether or not this whole shiteshow will lead to a recession or an economic boom.

    It's not normal to expect the average person to understand how a machine as complicated and as opaque as the EU functions and what benefits and drawbacks membership has for their own personal lives. I think it was poorly communicated by both sides of the debate what each outcome would cause and people were heavily misled by both Project Fear and the Big Red Bus.

    This is the whole reason representative democracies exist - so that someone else can go and study the law and you don't have to worry about it. But it seems Bojo Jojo isn't happy that the elected representatives of the people disagree with him and he wants to silence Parliament since they, how did you put it, "didn't get it right". It's such a shambles this whole thing.


    I don't know enough about the inner workings of the EU, but the "they don't actually vote" smacks of propaganda. It's shady as fuck, but to claim something like that is painful. Especially since you might be right! Take it from someone who's never experienced an unrigged election in their homeland.

    The UK was a willing member of the EU for a while. Now it wants to leave. They have been allowed to. That seems pretty democratic to me. How they can't work out what exactly it means to leave is beyond me. And how they didn't think about what would happen if the people chose to leave before commiting to the referendum is just a joke.
    Germany is due to head into recession as predicted by experts of that there is little doubt in economic circles. The economic forecast hitherto was wrong for the UK. Even the eu has acknowledged the euro has been a disaster yet it will not address the currency or the banking problems.

    Too big to fail, too big to leave. This thread has been about discussing Brexit and the eu. So far from those arguing for the EU it would seem the only evidence put forth for it, is its charter and not its actuality. This would the big bus pamphlet and not the actual reality of the eu. I've at least provided some data and matter of fact on the eu. Further discussion welcome.

    How is bojo jojo silencing parliament?
    Why wont the opposition call for an election ?
    Brexiteers would like to have an election to make the parliament more representative of the actual peoples will.
    Will the bill being passed become law ?

    The point being made here is that if the people are too dumb to vote on such complicated issues you can easily extend this concept to national elections. Henceforth you should therefore remove voting from the people in favour of a centralised power structure to rule over the people.
    The only one option vote on a ballot is justified whereby people propose that having voted to leave the EU they should have a second referendum with two options whereby leaving the eu is not an option. Venturing remain and a bad deal remaining as the 2 options.
    Similarly the MEPs when voting sometimes have a choice of voting for a candidate or not voting. This would be akin to asking the British people if theyd like to have an election with one voting option say bojo or abstain. You can read up on the article printed about the green UK MEP as someone whose bubble was burst on arrival.

    There are people who have thought about it.

  6. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCTV View Post
    Too big to fail, too big to leave. This thread has been about discussing Brexit and the eu. So far from those arguing for the EU it would seem the only evidence put forth for it, is its charter and not its actuality. This would the big bus pamphlet and not the actual reality of the eu. I've at least provided some data and matter of fact on the eu. Further discussion welcome.
    This is exactly why I stated your view is so depressing, because it looks like it might be true.


    Quote Originally Posted by CCTV View Post
    How is bojo jojo silencing parliament?
    Why wont the opposition call for an election ?
    Brexiteers would like to have an election to make the parliament more representative of the actual peoples will.
    Will the bill being passed become law ?
    The way I understood it he aims to prorogue them so as to not give them enough time to fight against his policies. Am I wrong? Regarding the election - yes, they do - the opposition probably does as well, but they want Boris to come up with a concrete plan for Brexit so the people can vote based on that rather than wishy washy promises. At this point it's just political maneuvering as to when it will happen, no?

    Quote Originally Posted by CCTV View Post
    The point being made here is that if the people are too dumb to vote on such complicated issues you can easily extend this concept to national elections. Henceforth you should therefore remove voting from the people in favour of a centralised power structure to rule over the people.
    You're committing a slippery slope fallacy. It is like saying "well if it is considered ok to abort a fetus (or cum in a rag, take your pick), why don't we just start shooting babies". You can't extend these points indefinitely, not in practice.

    Your way of thinking, mirrored, would pose the question "Why don't we just dissolve parliament and vote on everything ourselves". There are practical considerations to be made.

    People are demonstrably too dumb to vote on certain things, which is why they elect people to represent their interests in power. While the average person is incapable of comprehending the complex pros and cons of say nuclear power, they should at least be able to judge whether or not a given political candidate will do their best to protect their interests. That's not perfect of course, but it's better than the alternative.

    Quote Originally Posted by CCTV View Post
    The only one option vote on a ballot is justified whereby people propose that having voted to leave the EU they should have a second referendum with two options whereby leaving the eu is not an option. Venturing remain and a bad deal remaining as the 2 options.
    Similarly the MEPs when voting sometimes have a choice of voting for a candidate or not voting. This would be akin to asking the British people if theyd like to have an election with one voting option say bojo or abstain. You can read up on the article printed about the green UK MEP as someone whose bubble was burst on arrival.

    There are people who have thought about it.
    I probably should read up on that, you're right. I'm not sure I understand what you meant by the two options, apologies. I do, for the record, think that if you've done the referendum, you have to abide by its result. Otherwise we end up with the hellish situation "vote 'till you get it right", which you described. The problem would be if the referendum was in some way illegal or irregular. I doubt both.
    Last edited by Balinkay; 5th September 2019 at 02:37 PM.
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  7. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balinkay View Post
    This is exactly why I stated your view is so depressing, because it looks like it might be true.




    The way I understood it he aims to prorogue them so as to not give them enough time to fight against his policies. Am I wrong? Regarding the election - yes, they do - the opposition probably does as well, but they want Boris to come up with a concrete plan for Brexit so the people can vote based on that rather than wishy washy promises. At this point it's just political maneuvering as to when it will happen, no?



    You're committing a slippery slope fallacy. It is like saying "well if it is considered ok to abort a fetus (or cum in a rag, take your pick), why don't we just start shooting babies". You can't extend these points indefinitely, not in practice.

    Your way of thinking, mirrored, would pose the question "Why don't we just dissolve parliament and vote on everything ourselves". There are practical considerations to be made.

    People are demonstrably too dumb to vote on certain things, which is why they elect people to represent their interests in power. While the average person is incapable of comprehending the complex pros and cons of say nuclear power, they should at least be able to judge whether or not a given political candidate will do their best to protect their interests. That's not perfect of course, but it's better than the alternative.



    I probably should read up on that, you're right. I'm not sure I understand what you meant by the two options, apologies. I do, for the record, think that if you've done the referendum, you have to abide by its result. Otherwise we end up with the hellish situation "vote 'till you get it right", which you described. The problem would be if the referendum was in some way illegal or irregular. I doubt both.
    1) unsurprising depression rises over the decades, it is depressing.

    2) theres a lot of skullduggery on the go and whether things are legal, constitutional or going to be enacted is a little unclear. Too much to consider at present.
    They dont want an election as the indications at present is the remainers would lose seats and the chances of a pro-Brexit parliament are high, even though not all remainers were ousted in this latest purge. Remainers dont want to lose the house of commons.
    As said too muddy to tell just yet, let's see what happens.
    For now it seems proroguing parliament will lose them 4 or 5 days of debate. Whilst the bill ventured would send a clear message to the eu that bojo jojo would not be able to leave without a deal undermining his negotiating position and under some debate the eu could set whatever length of extension they wish. It requires the queens consent and she must act under the advice of her minister bojo so maybe he could advice her to refuse the bill, though imo that is an unlikely outcome.
    Again let's see but it would seem one is worse than the other at present.
    If it is enacted then there is no excuse for not having a general election before the October deadline. If a Brexit majority is returned then they can rescind the law I believe. There will be no or little time to renegotiate any deal though, which of course remainers will say was not occuring anyway and no deal becomes an ever more likely outcome with which the remainers will have their share of responsibilty.
    If the remainers manage to upset the current polls, possible in a volatile environment, then they will be charged with sorting out Brexit. SNP and lib dems seem set to want to remain, labour less clear but some form of a second referendum might be more likely.
    Whether they put an actual leaving the eu option on the ballot is not clear, if they do win the ge.
    Maybe some deal whilst not leaving the eu versus remain.

    3) not sure I'm the one on the slippery slope, it seems that is you, by suggesting the opinion of and on what people are qualified to vote on. You've suggested voting on the eu was too complex. I'll simply ask you to explain why these same 'dumb' people would be then qualified to vote on other issues ? Do they have the requisite understanding to comprehend and foresee the consequences of their votes elsewhere ?
    What right to vote would you afford them ?

    Not sure why you put forward an analogy about killing children or ejaculating in a rag as a comparative analogy. Typical leftist student wanking and aborting kids (joke).
    Wtf are you on about?

    4) theres more to parliament than voting, it's a place where Bill's are debated amendments made as cross party consensus is helped for. The constituents of various regions are represented and they communicate with each other and represent their local communities.
    The idea of direct democracy or having further votes for the people is not exactly totally mad. The swiss as an example do it fine and as suggested earlier this only becomes an issue when the dumb common folk vote against the interests of the supra-beings in charge of the eu central authority.

    5) people are not dumb. Peope may be not well informed but they can become better informed and later to a point to reject the original information.
    I'd like to see some IQ scores for politicians to separate them from the average IQ score, if you can oblige?
    The problem today is science has become heavily politicised and as such its quality and validity is in decline, add a decline in investigative journalism and mere normal journalism and you have a population that in general without conducting their own inquiries are either uninformed or misinformed largely. Hence the media sits lowest in the publics estimation for trust.
    As per your life, life begins at conception is a generally accepted biological fact. It holds through at a very near 100% level with biologists when answering on mammalian life. When the same biologists are asked about human life it then sits at 75% agreement as at conception. This shows the influence of politics on facts which you can add to your slippery slope

    6) it seems the only time an election is illegal or irregular in Europe is when the people vote against the eu. Thereafter they rerun the vote and force through the correct vote, or they bypass the people and get politicians to pass it through without the people.
    It'll be interesting to see if the eu can thwart Brexit in the UK.

  8. #298
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    I think it's very fair to say that the last general election tried to brush Brexit under the carpet. With everyone (labour and tories at least) iirc declaring an intention to respect the results of the referendum and deliver Brexit.

    Needless to say that since then a vast majority voted for article 50 and subsequently it was suspended. I think it's fair to say that this election will only really be about Brexit in truth.

    No respect for the result, numerous insinuations that people didnt know what they voted for and serious efforts to undermine delivering a Brexit as per the instruction to and results from the vote.

    Of note for the election the bank of England has seriously reduced its assessment of the impact of a no deal Brexit from last year.

  9. #299
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    Obviously by dumb I didn't mean "with low IQ". I meant poorly prepared to judge very complex issues. Yes, people are incredibly dumb in that regard. You are exactly on the slippery slope - there are practical considerations to be made - why do we need parialment in your world? People can just vote on everything.

    Jesus Christ, do you honestly think the average Briton did their research with regard to Brexit? Wasn't the most googled term the day after the referendum "What is the EU?" or was that just a meme.

    People don't really vote on specific issues - they vote for candidates or parties who they think will protect their interests. Specific issues and possible solutions are used in usually untruthful election campaigns to convince people you'd do the best for them.

    The cum rag joke was that, as with most issues, in practice taking a concept it to its most extreme incarnation results in absurdity. Which is what you seem to be doing - "if people are too dumb to vote for one thing, they are too dumb to vote for any thing", kind of strawmanning my position. I just mirrored that. There has to be some cut off point. Even is Switzerland.

    With Brexit I get the feeling that the citizens didn't really have a problem with the EU per se, but they faced certain issues - like too much immigration or a less then stellar NHS. They were given a way to vote for the solution, not for the issues they found difficult.

    If we get back to jokes, it's like going to the doctor and not telling them your leg hurts, but rather asking for the bonesaw, since it's your leg and you should be able to make that choice. No, you pay your taxes so that the doctor does that stuff for you. Division of labour and so on.
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  10. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balinkay View Post
    That's nonsense and you know it. People have little idea what the EU actually does, as evidenced by the fact that even economists can't seem to work out whether or not this whole shiteshow will lead to a recession or an economic boom.

    It's not normal to expect the average person to understand how a machine as complicated and as opaque as the EU functions and what benefits and drawbacks membership has for their own personal lives. I think it was poorly communicated by both sides of the debate what each outcome would cause and people were heavily misled by both Project Fear and the Big Red Bus.
    also doesn't help that politicians are liars and fail to communicate the true facts to the people who vote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Balinkay View Post
    The UK was a willing member of the EU for a while. Now it wants to leave. They have been allowed to.
    Not yet, we haven't.
    That seems pretty democratic to me. How they can't work out what exactly it means to leave is beyond me. And how they didn't think about what would happen if the people chose to leave before commiting to the referendum is just a joke.

    It's a disgrace how this has been handled by both sides of the debate.
    what a bunch of "mass debaters" comes to mind

    [QUOTE]

    People are demonstrably too dumb to vote on certain things, which is why they elect people to represent their interests in power. While the average person is incapable of comprehending the complex pros and cons of say nuclear power, they should at least be able to judge whether or not a given political candidate will do their best to protect their interests. That's not perfect of course, but it's better than the alternative. [/unquote]

    it should be the responsibility of parliament/politicians to give the populace sufficient and genuine/honest information in the case of referendums in particular. Problem is, we all know, they can't/won't because they're all dishonest.

    Quote Originally Posted by CCTV View Post

    6) it seems the only time an election is illegal or irregular in Europe is when the people vote against the eu. Thereafter they rerun the vote and force through the correct vote, or they bypass the people and get politicians to pass it through without the people.
    It'll be interesting to see if the eu can thwart Brexit in the UK.
    Far as I'm concerned, the EU moves money around Europe (the EU) and pays itself astronomical amounts to do so.

    [QUOTE=Balinkay;2586999]

    Jesus Christ, do you honestly think the average Briton did their research with regard to Brexit? Wasn't the most googled term the day after the referendum "What is the EU?" or was that just a meme.[/unquote]

    think/hope it was just a meme. Average Briton expected (heaven knows why) the politicians would for once be honest with the information they gave out.
    There's too much confusion, I can't get no relief

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