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Thread: Prison sentences too lenient?

  1. #11
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    "If Everton were playing at the bottom of my garden, i'd close the curtains”

  2. #12
    Extending the idea that a country is simply made up of millions of homes, and if each home is well governed then it leads to a well run country... It baffles me that so many people vote Tory when most people in this country come from homes, from families, that are run along the lines of "contribute according to your ability and receive according to your needs" - People believe in that within their own homes but beyond that...

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevie harkness View Post
    Extending the idea that a country is simply made up of millions of homes, and if each home is well governed then it leads to a well run country... It baffles me that so many people vote Tory when most people in this country come from homes, from families, that are run along the lines of "contribute according to your ability and receive according to your needs" - People believe in that within their own homes but beyond that...
    It's not baffling why people vote Tory, a lot of it has to do with their homes, the UK desperately needs council houses and affordable housing, it's a huge part of what's gone wrong with a once Great Britain and a huge reason so many successive governments haven't addressed the issue (the Tories deliberately haven't because as existing home owners see their house values rise it strengthens their position) is that for a hell of a lot of people who own their homes don't want the much needed council and affordable homes built, because it will affect the values of their properties.

    One of THE most common planning application objections against affordable housing projects (never mind council houses) for several years has been that it will adversely affect the value of existing homes, it's funny that so many people throw that objection in because it's not a valid one anyway, but it shows exactly how people think and it's all the product of the baby boomers selling us down the river and continually voting in a Tory government who sold thousands of council homes for votes without replacing them and then removed housing prices from the inflation register.

    The Tory Reganomics have over a long period of time created a UK of utterly selfish twats who like the majority of Mp's have no interest in voting for what's best for the country but are only interested in their own interests and ironically pretty much everything that's wrong with the UK and all the other problems they moan about can be traced back to the great Tory housing scam
    "If Everton were playing at the bottom of my garden, i'd close the curtains”

  4. #14
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    The equation is simple

    (A) Removal of/lack of social housing means more people having to rent privately escalating house prices

    (B) Escalating house prices means a large demographic of people can't afford to buy them, especially when they have escalated massively as a result of (A) and have their escalation in price has been removed from inflation meaning that year on year that large demographic of people have been effectively taking a massive pay cut and the prices are rising further and further beyond their reach

    (C) Because of (A) and (B) Landlord's unchecked and unrestricted have been able to continually hike rental prices well above inflation (inflation well below actual inflation after the removal of house prices) and use the profits to continue to buy more houses and can afford to pay more for them as an investment ahead of would be first time buyers, further escalating the problems

    (D) (A) (B) and (C) contribute massively to people who own their own homes or portfolios of houses they rent/are attempting to build their mini empire from strongly opposing any building of council or affordable housing that might affect the sale or rental value of their homes and that greatly influences their decision making when voting

    In some areas all of the above has played a huge part in destroying local business and industry, especially fishing, because of the above Reganomics many working class people of the large demographic were unable to buy or afford homes that became available in their local area, those homes instead being bought for rent or as second homes escalating the issue further and creating a new issue that many people who bought those homes as second homes started to buy boats which they kept in the area for when they holidayed at their second home which hugely escalated the cost of moorings, another massive blow for local, already struggling fishing industries
    "If Everton were playing at the bottom of my garden, i'd close the curtains”

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevie harkness View Post
    Prison sentencing is a farce, and unjust, but prison doesn't work anyway. And we've run out of islands for penal colonies, and outer space isn't an option.

    Where does the concept of punishment come from anyway? I suspect it's so ingrained in us from before we can remember that we don't even question it. Our society was founded on old testament religion and it still hasn't recovered from that yet. Of course there is punishment in the animal kingdom, sometimes to the death, but humans seem more vindictive and use it as a form of revenge. They feel hurt so they want the criminal hurt too. What's best for society?

    Lao Tzu said that every country is just made up of homes so if we govern each home correctly then the country is sorted. But we've got it the other way round. Community and family is the key to so much crime prevention, a fact that is lost on recent governments.
    These are complex areas and heres my take.

    Punishment is entirely natural. It's part of the developmental learning in life and essentially innate. Nature is punishing and offers chances to thrive.

    Those who get death penalties have a 0% rate of reoffending. Those who get temporary release or serve their time are capable of reoffending. Its not even unknown for chemically castrated rapists to brutally reoffend, never mind uncastrated.
    So the argument can be made for the protection of future possible or likely victims also. The counter point is the opportunity for redemption and reform.

    What's best for society is somewhat unclear. The new testament attitude if were using a religious metaphor to forgive say is linked with lower crime rates but that is somewhat contentious and malleable.

    Family, community and the wider society are important factors. But essentially it boils down to the individual and their ability to act independently from their family, community and society. Many people had far tougher lives and been victims of abuse and not acted inappropriately. While others who had it all in that sense act appallingly.

    Some media excerpts from a few pieces on the UK, death penalty and murder.
    During 1964 there were 296 murders in England and Wales, including the murder for which Evans and Allen were hanged. When the gallows were mothballed in 1965 there were 325 murders.
    It’s true that annual homicide rates then rose for the next quarter of a century, reaching a peak of more than 1,000 in 2002 (when 172 murders were attributed to Harold Shipman alone), but since then they have fallen back precipitously and homicides are now at their lowest level in about 30 years. The overall population has, of course, increased significantly in that time......
    The murder rate in England and Wales has fallen to its lowest level in 20 years, with 648 homicides recorded in 2008/09 – 136 fewer than the year before. Home Office statisticians said the drop was "not a blip". Annual crime figures published yesterday show the number of murders and manslaughters and infanticides fell to a level not seen since 1989.

    In 1965 54.35 million - 325 homicides
    In 2009 62.26 million - 648 homicides

    https://fullfact.org/news/has-murder-rate-doubled-hanging-was-abolished/
    This looks at the topic with a bit more depth and perspective, however the outcome supports the idea that since abolition the murder rate has increased significantly.
    As with the lack of clarity I proposed earlier this too is not a closed case even in this example. There are other factors at play. Though in some sense perhaps youd expect a higher survival rate in these more modern times with the advancement of medicial services.

    Murder is a high measure for violence in society.
    Increased Inequality, decreased empathy and trust good predictors of violence as i understand it. And all 3 going the wrong way.

    Now for family and community, much more controversial and sprawling long form.

  6. #16
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    Not sure if I could post that post, I posted it, but must read forum rules.
    Last edited by CCTV; 2nd July 2019 at 12:56 AM.

  7. #17
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    Have murders actually fallen or have people just got a lot better at hiding the evidence and bodies?

    I watch a fair bit of ID and CID some crazy murders on there, quite a lot that easily could have been gotten away with but for silly mistakes
    "If Everton were playing at the bottom of my garden, i'd close the curtains”

  8. #18
    Get rid of them or rehabilitate them.

    Interesting take on prison life in Norway

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-48885846

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nineteenx View Post
    Have murders actually fallen or have people just got a lot better at hiding the evidence and bodies?

    I watch a fair bit of ID and CID some crazy murders on there, quite a lot that easily could have been gotten away with but for silly mistakes
    In recent years they have fallen from a peak but on the rise again in more recent years. The full fact org brings it up to recent enough times iirc.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCTV View Post
    In recent years they have fallen from a peak but on the rise again in more recent years. The full fact org brings it up to recent enough times iirc.
    Personally I believe the health of society and the gap between rich and poor are two major factors affecting crime.
    In today's society I don't think there are the opportunities available for self-enrichment.
    The UK has had the majority of its heavy industry wiped out - mining, steel production, shipbuilding. These industries employed thousands, maybe even millions of the population. What are the biggest industries remaining in the UK, capable of employing such a large number of the population?
    The government/establishment has appeared to substantially reduce the police force and their capability to prevent and deal with crime.
    Another factor to be considered is the number of people living into old age - these people have their government pensions and/or take up hospital beds. This causes a drain on the economy and is probably the reason why tax rates are so high and people are expected to continue working to a higher age. Not forgetting the massed ranks of civil servants (including politicians?) with their huge index-linked pensions.
    There's too much confusion, I can't get no relief

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