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Thread: Captain

  1. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nineteenx View Post
    Very illuminating
    Illuminating your level of deception...

    Off transfermarkt:
    Hendo at 6
    19/20 - played 12 - 3 ppg all comps - 3 ppg pl
    18/19: Played 17 - 2.29 ppg all comps - 2.42 ppg pl
    Fabinho at 6:
    19/20 - played 28 - 2.25 ppg all comps- 2.72 ppg pl
    18/19 - played 37 - 2.41 ppg all comps- 2.51ppg pl

    Hendo in the form of his life granted, played 1 cl and 1 cwc game for his all comps this term.
    Hendo wins 19/20 and Fabinho wins 18/19


    Quote Originally Posted by Nineteenx View Post
    Also very illuminating
    Matip 18/19:
    CB - played 26 - 2.27ppg all comps - 2.53 ppg pl
    19/20:
    CB - played 12 - 2.17 ppg all comps - 2.75ppg pl

    Gomez 18/19:
    CB - Played 13 - 2.46 ppg all comps - 2.6 ppg pl
    19/20: CB played 2.63 ppg all comps- 3ppg pl

    Gomez takes all 4

    More surprisingly and why these stats aren't conclusive

    Firmino
    All appearances
    Played 226
    Ppg all comps 2.06
    Goals 76
    Assists 59
    Minutes 17,244
    Goal/min 226.9
    Goal or assist/min 127.73

    CF appearances
    Played 141
    Ppg all comps 2.06
    Goals 56
    Assists 48
    Minutes 11,228
    Goal/min 200.5
    Goal or assist/min 107.96

    Origi
    All appearances
    Played 128
    Ppg all comps 2.04
    Goals 33
    Assists 11
    Minutes 5,348
    Goal/min 162.1
    Goal or assist/min 121.55

    CF appearances
    Played 78
    Ppg all comps 2.12
    Goals 26
    Assists 8
    Minutes 3,946
    Goal/min 151.77
    Goal or assist/min 116.06

    Origi has age on his side like Gomez and Fabinho...... DROP FIRMINO !!

    He's holding us back

  2. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nineteenx View Post
    best laugh I've had since Rodgers labelled Joe Allen the Welsh Xavi

    Oh and apologies for re-posting those stats, but we all had much debate about the centre back pairing being the sole reason for our clean sheets, particularly CCTV

    I'll finish with this one and I am finished with it, I have apologised for over doing it, but (not that any of you care) My reasons were as follows:

    1. I thought it was best for the team and all our aspirations
    2. I got a lot of stick for it and bombarded with a lot of stats that didn't show the true picture of why we had been getting those clean sheets and so many back to back wins
    3. As I alluded to in another thread, I really don't like unreasonable favouritism or prejudice, it winds me up no end.
    4. Short(ish) version for once - A lot of people too many here never gave Hendo the credit he deserved at any point in his Liverpool career and many seemed to openly dislike him because he took the Captains armband when Gerrard left, which is absolutely ridiculous.

    Fabinho is a very good player, but he isn't nearly as good as many like to make out, he was massively overhyped simply because he took Henderson's spot and wasn't Henderson, that's how I see it, and it was really fucking annoying and irritating. The alleged reason from the anti Hendo brigade was we needed more creativity from No6 Hendo 2017/18 1 goal 2 assists Fabinho 2018/19 1 goal 2 assists - Then when we actually do have that greater creativity and Hendo is providing it, that's all wrong and not good enough either and isn't actually happening at all apparently

    Finished now, I will say no more on the subject, people need to grow the fuck up
    Fabinho brings a Milnerness at 6 - tactical fouls and wipeouts, plus he wins headers.
    3 advantages over Hendo imo.

    Hendo has done better and better at 6 when called upon.
    Up until his injury hes been in fantastic form after losing his spot he was a man inspired.

    Even you have conceded, when playing better sides how Fabinho at 6 and Hendo rcm is more advantageous.

    V the smaller sides imo 4231 is the way to go, 2 6s and a front 4.
    Any pair of Fabinho Hendo or Gini would do me.

    Would allow more rest/rotation for fab, hendo & gini and get some of our more attacking options minutes keita/ox/mini/origi/shaq
    Last edited by CCTV; 7th March 2020 at 02:49 AM.

  3. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCTV View Post
    Fabinho brings a Milnerness at 6 - tactical fouls and wipeouts, plus he wins headers.
    3 advantages over Hendo imo.

    Hendo has done better and better at 6 when called upon.
    Up until his injury hes been in fantastic form after losing his spot he was a man inspired.

    Even you have conceded, when playing better sides how Fabinho at 6 and Hendo rcm is more advantageous.

    V the smaller sides imo 4231 is the way to go, 2 6s and a front 4.
    Any pair of Fabinho Hendo or Gini would do me.

    Would allow more rest/rotation for fab, hendo & gini and get some of our more attacking options minutes keita/ox/mini/origi/shaq
    Entirely disagree with that and your stats are meaningless, you argued long and hard that we kept all those clean sheets solely because of the CB pairing, the stats I provided were of each centre back pairing and how they fair with Hendo at No6 and with Fabinho at No6 and it blew your argument entirely out of the water, as did the stats for Hendo at No6 compared to Fabinho at No6

    As you're listing stats makes no sense, because Hendo had developed considerably at No6 when he returned there this season, part of that was our improved movement up front giving him greater opportunity to use his superior distribution to that of Fabinho's. Why it's important is that with Hendo at No6 we had all 3 midfielders rotating positions throughout the game, something Hendo initiated, it made our press and counter press far better than it has ever been and made it incredibly difficult for teams to hit us on the counter.

    When Fabinho plays at No6 we're a lot easier to counter against and the press isn't as good because Fabinho isn't very good at it and because he isn't a natural midfielder or No6 and doesn't play right across the width of the pitch we can't have the rotation/interchanging of positions that makes the press better

    I would play Fabinho as my preferred No6 only in games against the very biggest sides who are better than us with the ball who try to dominate the ball. In those games, Fabinho's lack of awareness and when to press or not to press isn't an issue as it can be in most other games, because Hendo and Gini sit deepr than him helping their full backs and occupying the space that those teams creative midfielders like to create from, so they mop up what gets past Fabinho too, who can just be sent out to try and destroy higher up the pitch without having to worry about getting in bad positions.

    Fabinho's needs more instruction now on how to press, because he gets it badly wrong against other sides when he's supposed to be deepest and because the rotation/interchanging of the 3 can't be achieved with him in the side, if he goes high when he shouldn't and gets it wrong, there's no-one covering his arse.

    Barkley's goal for Chelsea was a perfect example of that, it was an absolutely atrocious piece of play and decision making from Fabinho. Jones was already really advanced in a very high press position relatively wide left, without the interchanging, Fabinho can't go that high too when he's supposed to be our deepest player covering the centre/centre left/centre right. It was also ridiculously obviously watching it that were Jones to lose that ball, it was never going to go the other side of Giroud, to his right as Fabinho was facing him, what the fucking hell on God's earth he was thinking going wrong side and beyond Giroud in that situation only he knows, and as he does so frequently, he left the middle which is the only area of the pitch he operates in wide open.

    Fabinho isn't like Milner, Fabinho commits fouls because he doesn't read the game well and lacks awareness and doesn't know when and where he should press and lets our press get broken far too often so ends up chasing back after players in his area who his incompetence has given a free run at our defence and frequently fouling them or fouling them before they set off when he's realised they got the ball where he shouldn't have let them, that's why he commits fouls, Millie does it very deliberately in different situations to lets them know who's boos or when he's got done for pace.

    You should have just left this, I was leaving it and not saying another word, but if you're going to go on a meaningless stat attack, and restart the debate with meaningless stats and peritnently untrue statements, then no i'm fucking not leaving it

    Hendo wins loads of headers and he rarely gives away fouls because he can read the fucking game and has better awarenees Fabinho does it because he can't do those things FFS, that is precisely WHY he does it, watch the damned game instead of looking at meaningless whoscored stats that tell you Fabinho was the best player v Atletico when he was utter shite
    "If Everton were playing at the bottom of my garden, i'd close the curtains”

  4. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCTV View Post

    Matip 18/19:
    CB - played 26 - 2.27ppg all comps - 2.53 ppg pl
    19/20:
    CB - played 12 - 2.17 ppg all comps - 2.75ppg pl

    Gomez 18/19:
    CB - Played 13 - 2.46 ppg all comps - 2.6 ppg pl
    19/20: CB played 2.63 ppg all comps- 3ppg pl

    Gomez takes all 4

    More surprisingly and why these stats aren't conclusive
    See this is what I mean with your meaningless stats in the context of the argument, I went back and looked through our fixtures and line ups which actually tells the true story rather than stats in isolation, the vast majority of the games Gomez got clean sheets in last season we played 4231 not 433, in the games your comparing that Matip played, mostly 433, entirely different thing, and the lack of clean sheets when Fabinho featured, even in the more defensive 4231 was evident in the line ups too

    The only tru accurate and fair comparison, an actual real comparison, comparing apples with apples not apples with bananas of how each CB pairing performed in the same formation and how each partnership faired with Henderson at No6 and Fabinho at No6
    "If Everton were playing at the bottom of my garden, i'd close the curtains”

  5. #275
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    We've missed Henderson at No6 since the Southampton game to be fair

    CCTV loves his stats so I have some for him:

    Henderson at No6 all competitions P13 W13 D0 L0 GF25 GA2 Clean sheets 11 Team failed to score 0 (zero)

    Draws - Zero

    Losses - Zero

    Failed to score - Zero

    Fabinho at No6 all competitions P25 W18 D3 L4 GF52 GA31 Clean sheets 3 (THREE) Team failed to score 4 (FOUR)

    Draws - The filthy away - Napoli - Shrewsbury away FA Cup

    Losses - Napoli - Atletico - Watford - Chelsea FA Cup

    Failed to score - Napoli - Atletico - Watford - Chelsea FA Cup

    I've got to say, the evidence is compelling and damning

    Then we get on to CB pairings with Fabinho at No6

    Van Dijk - Matip P10 W8 D1 L1 GF21 GA10 Clean sheets 2(Adrian in goal all games)

    Van Dijk - Lovren P8 W7 D1 L0 GF18 GA8 Clean sheets 0 (zero)

    Van Dijk - Gomez P6 W3 D0 L3 GF11 GA11 Clean sheets 1

    Very compelling

    Above are the actually meaningful stats that tell the true picture including our team press and the importance of it supporting our defence and preventing them from facing too many counters

    Your entire argument was that the sole reason for the clean sheets was the Van Dijk Gomez partnership and were arguing against is being anything whatsoever to do with Hendo at No6, the interchanging of the 3 midfielder players in those games and our team press and counter press being better than it's ever been as a result and that Fabinho was the better player at No6, those meaningful stats show your arguments were a load of nonsense.

    And I got all the stats of wins losses and draws goals conceded goals scored and who played from going through our fixtures and checking the line ups
    "If Everton were playing at the bottom of my garden, i'd close the curtains”

  6. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nineteenx View Post
    We've missed Henderson at No6 since the Southampton game to be fair

    CCTV loves his stats so I have some for him:

    Henderson at No6 all competitions P13 W13 D0 L0 GF25 GA2 Clean sheets 11 Team failed to score 0 (zero)

    Draws - Zero

    Losses - Zero

    Failed to score - Zero

    Fabinho at No6 all competitions P25 W18 D3 L4 GF52 GA31 Clean sheets 3 (THREE) Team failed to score 4 (FOUR)

    Draws - The filthy away - Napoli - Shrewsbury away FA Cup

    Losses - Napoli - Atletico - Watford - Chelsea FA Cup

    Failed to score - Napoli - Atletico - Watford - Chelsea FA Cup

    I've got to say, the evidence is compelling and damning

    Then we get on to CB pairings with Fabinho at No6

    Van Dijk - Matip P10 W8 D1 L1 GF21 GA10 Clean sheets 2(Adrian in goal all games)

    Van Dijk - Lovren P8 W7 D1 L0 GF18 GA8 Clean sheets 0 (zero)

    Van Dijk - Gomez P6 W3 D0 L3 GF11 GA11 Clean sheets 1

    Very compelling

    Above are the actually meaningful stats that tell the true picture including our team press and the importance of it supporting our defence and preventing them from facing too many counters

    Your entire argument was that the sole reason for the clean sheets was the Van Dijk Gomez partnership and were arguing against is being anything whatsoever to do with Hendo at No6, the interchanging of the 3 midfielder players in those games and our team press and counter press being better than it's ever been as a result and that Fabinho was the better player at No6, those meaningful stats show your arguments were a load of nonsense.

    And I got all the stats of wins losses and draws goals conceded goals scored and who played from going through our fixtures and checking the line ups
    Are there 2 Henderson's at the club? because the one I know gives away quite a few fouls, many near our own box, and I rarely see him win any headers. If the cleans sheets are not just about the cb pairings, then they are not just down to Henderson and where he plays either. When was the last time you saw Henderson have a bad game, was it in his first season. You need to be more balanced in your views and realise he isn't the second coming, just part of a much bigger picture like they all are.
    If you're not sure what to do with the ball, just put it in the net, and we'll talk about the other options later... Bob Paisley.

  7. #277
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    I actually think Hendersons best position is the second midfielder. ie someone who isn't a defensive midfielder but he can drop in and protect the ball and he can also get forward. with the likes of Oxlade and who ever else plays the 3rd midfielder.
    A lot of midfielders struggle to play that role.Keita for instance
    I always thought Gerrard wasn't great in that role.. Obviously the best attacking midfielder of his generation though.
    Cleaning up the Scots since the 13th century

  8. #278
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    Mind you, you could have played Gerrard any position and he would have been superb even Centre back/Right back. Right sided attacker on the left side and so on. And even Striker
    Cleaning up the Scots since the 13th century

  9. #279
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    Have to agree Fabinho was largely at fault for both Chelsea goals, on his heels and gave the ball away falling over on the edge of the area for the first and woefully out of position for the second. You could argue that Chelsea don’t score either goal if Henderson was playing in Fabinho’s position.
    Problem is, had Hendo been fit, Fab would still have played with Hendo wide right mid.

  10. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyebo View Post
    Are there 2 Henderson's at the club? because the one I know gives away quite a few fouls, many near our own box, and I rarely see him win any headers. If the cleans sheets are not just about the cb pairings, then they are not just down to Henderson and where he plays either. When was the last time you saw Henderson have a bad game, was it in his first season. You need to be more balanced in your views and realise he isn't the second coming, just part of a much bigger picture like they all are.
    You're talking about 2017-2018 Henderson, look back through the thread he wins his fair share of headers. If players didn't improve and get better we'd rate every player as they were 2 years ago and talk about them in the same terms, you need to be more balanced and accept players improve and develop and that teams work hard to try and stop us doing the things we do too and they get better at that

    I get what you're trying to say on the second point, but we defend as a team by pressing and counter pressing, when we do this to our highest levels it makes the job of our back four a lot easier, the opposition aren't able to attack or counter them in numbers as much, and it makes seeing and defending the point of any attack a lot easier, that's not opinion, that is a fact.

    So if we have a player that leads the press and counter press to function at it's highest levels,we concede less goals, because the opposition don't get to attack our defence as much, our forwards and full backs are also key to our press, but it is the midfield's experience, vision, awareness and positioning that makes it work, if that isn't there, we have issues.

    I think people need to drop their bias and be more balanced, or learn to understand better how important our press and counter press is to our playing at our best and accept that Fabinho is far too often the reason it gets broken, which makes him something of a liability in that respect
    "If Everton were playing at the bottom of my garden, i'd close the curtains”

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