The demise of Manchester United

[Taksin]

How low can they go?

Now that we are flying so high I can't get as much pleasure from their suffering as I once did. I used to look forward to MOTD quite a bit more when they had lost a game. Couldn't give a shit these days. However, this is now a kind of deeper pain that they are encountering, one that might eventually be even a bit deeper than the misery we went through in the nineties, zeros and tens. The delusions that we once had - that we were good enough - are starting to desert them. Gary Neville said he thought Manu U would win the league before LFC last summer, an opinion some posters on here might have shared with him, but that's a different subject.

They have all these ex players as pundits talking about how they are the biggest and best team in the world as if it's their birth right to be at the top, but there is a sneaking suspicion that this might be the end of an era. And the era where they are also rans could last a very long time. I say that as someone who has been thinking we could win the league for thirty years without it happening.

They have been ploughing through the top managers to try and restore the glory days but it hasn't worked at all. It has been a mess. Is Solskjaer a decent manager or inept - can anyone tell? I think they will have to stick with him because they can now see it isn't the managers that are wrong, it's obviously starting to become clear that they have player recruitment issues, despite the usual massive spending. The more they panic, the worse it will get.

Last night the Old Trafford crowd turned nasty and it wasn't Ole they aimed their bitterness at, it was Woodward. This got me thinking again about the argument between Steveo and myself on these boards over the last year or so. Where does the success originate?

LFC had its own demise and it was the end of an era. Our owners fell behind in the race - they didn't know how to keep with the times. Man U were planning differently and started to put something successful together - at that time, talking about people buying shirts in Asia was totally foreign to most clubs, including ours. Breaking the transfer record on someone like Collymore became a symbol of how we had lost pace with our rivals. In that era after our last league title, Leeds, Blackburn, Newcastle and Manu U were all starting to run their clubs differently to historical models. Yes, Ferguson was a genius and they had luck in terms of the talent coming through the youth set up, but they kept signing the best players in the world, over and over again. Even ones you'd never heard of. That's what we have started to do. We've got six players or something in the world's top twenty. How did that happen?

Our recruitment has become cast iron solid. When we buy a player, I no longer worry about how good they are going to be. I know that the manager is convinced, the team has done its research properly, including using statistical models developed by people that don't even know about football, and we are ahead of the competition as a result. The manager, scouts and the owners agree about what is needed. It's a new era of competence.

A mate was telling me that even the Klopp appointment used these methods. He had had a bad last season at Dortmund and they looked at stats to see that his team was actually performing really well but had not had the rub of the green. They brought up specific examples in the interview and he was thrilled that they could see his team were actually playing well despite the loss.

So, my prediction is, the chaos will continue at United so long as the Owners, CEO and board pursue the current model. Doesn't matter if they appoint the best manager, build the biggest stadium or buy the biggest stars, its not enough. The whole, complex organism has to be brought into functional harmony. Even then, as with Klopp at Dortmund, success is not guaranteed. But it's guaranteed not to happen if the club hierarchy is failing.

[Joetan991]

In one word ''Mismanagement''

[teesred]

Their era has ended. Like you say theres this birth right feel from them and us as Liverpool fans know it better than anyone. That feeling of "well get it right eventually and just take over again", but it has gone now. They will get it back sometime in the future I guess the same but who knows? They might not. Who'd have thought Milan would be in the situation theyre in now? It can happen.
Ill never forget saying to my best mate in 06 after we had won the FA cup that their golden days were gone. He fully agreed. We looked like we were in a great position, on the cusp of something good. We had a great squad, Gerrard at his peak almost. But then they had Ronaldo and the rest is history.......
Now they dont have that safety net and are struggling for an identity in all areas of the club. Theyre in the unenviable position we were in for years, paying top dollar for bang average players and the cost is constantly rising.
Personally I'm loving it as I've lived through their siccess having it rammed down my throat but I am also not daft enough to forget how quickly things can change. They throw so much money at things that they can get it right if the right manager comes in but theyvde fallen so far away in every area its unreal. Under Ferguson it was a well oiled machine. They could regularly take the best players from rivals and pretty much anyone. Not now though.
Their current predicament hammers home just how well things are for LFC. We are currently the well oiled machine, pretty much the envy if everyone and theres a genuine feeling that its not a flash in the pan, a false dawn like many before.
Its a good time for us and we should thoroughly enjoy it.

[toneata]

As long as they've got bucketloads of cash to spend, they'll always be a good manager away from getting back on track. Luckily for us it seems the hierarchy at the club haven't got a clue how to recruit one.

Think they'd need to go into administration for them not to win the title for 30 years though................fingers crossed.

[jozza800]

Their era has ended. Like you say theres this birth right feel from them and us as Liverpool fans know it better than anyone. That feeling of "well get it right eventually and just take over again", but it has gone now. They will get it back sometime in the future I guess the same but who knows? They might not. Who'd have thought Milan would be in the situation theyre in now? It can happen.
Ill never forget saying to my best mate in 06 after we had won the FA cup that their golden days were gone. He fully agreed. We looked like we were in a great position, on the cusp of something good. We had a great squad, Gerrard at his peak almost. But then they had Ronaldo and the rest is history.......
Now they dont have that safety net and are struggling for an identity in all areas of the club. Theyre in the unenviable position we were in for years, paying top dollar for bang average players and the cost is constantly rising.
Personally I'm loving it as I've lived through their siccess having it rammed down my throat but I am also not daft enough to forget how quickly things can change. They throw so much money at things that they can get it right if the right manager comes in but theyvde fallen so far away in every area its unreal. Under Ferguson it was a well oiled machine. They could regularly take the best players from rivals and pretty much anyone. Not now though.
Their current predicament hammers home just how well things are for LFC. We are currently the well oiled machine, pretty much the envy if everyone and theres a genuine feeling that its not a flash in the pan, a false dawn like many before.
Its a good time for us and we should thoroughly enjoy it.

I still believe that United struck gold in the early 90s. Having that many good youngster come through at the same time was total fluke. We had our own batch of good youngsters th edifference being United added Schmiechel, Keane and Cantona to their kids, we added James, Ruddock and Collymore.

United are in a similar postion we were but the difference being, they'll probabaly have a few years of throwing money at it, to ge themselves back. Once we missed the boat we haven't been able to climb back on board (until now ).

In a way, I do wish United were still the top team as beating them to the title would be certainly sweeter than beating City. At the moment it's like kicking a dead horse.

[stevie harkness]

People are saying the demise since Fergie corresponds with the appointment of Woodward. So it is more than just Solskjaer. They have bought some dross over the years (Fergie did too to be fair)

If they replace Woodward they have to replace him with the right man, same as with appointing a manager.

Solskjaer did start his job with a remarkably long 'bounce', just lucky I guess, and they'll always have Paris.

But since Fergie they've had supposed heavyweights like van Gaal, Mourinho, and won a few trophies but have been on the slide.

Sean Dyche said last night they've been 2-0 up at Old Trafford before, last season, it's not a sudden overnight thing.

Quite funny when Rio Ferdinand is complaining "These young kids now in schools around the country, they are not going to be wearing Manchester United shirts."

Reckon they'll give Solskjaer til the end of the month to beat Tranmere/Watford and show some fight in their semi with City but then who?

[Nineteenx]

A few points:

I'm not one to cry foul unless it is, I always said that Ferguson had far too much power and influence with the FA and over match officials in particular that was worth 9-12 points to them a season in terms of decisions they got in their games and decisions made against their closest rivals in theirs. I stand by it, it wasn't bitterness, I always left that to the Evertonians there were just so many rank wrong decisions and it most certainly did not 'even itself out over the course of a season' not even close. I always said once he left and that influence had gone they'd struggle with what he left behind as quite a few of his sides wouldn't have got over the line to win the amount of domestic honours they did without his incredible influence. Indeed under all their managers since I've seen so many decisions and ref make the right call to howls of derision from their fans and thought 'that would have been given under Ferguson'

People like to pour scorn on the above, but the truly great teams have always dominated in Europe as well as domestically in their eras and the filthys rank inability to ever get close to doing so tells the story of their not having that same influence over officials that benefited them so hugely on the domestic front. In 26 years as their manager Ferguson reached just four Champions League finals and only won 2 of them, because unlike the truly great sides, they simply weren't good enough to dominate in Europe under their team's own merit without the advantages they enjoyed domestically.

A huge issue they have is that they're obsessed with LFC, last season their own fans were advocating and requesting they throw their games in their derby to try and prevent us winning the league, including Neville on Sky Sports who even went as far as to call for a statue of Vincent Kompany after his goal v Leicester. They're all complaining now, but what kind of message does that send to the players and everyone connected to their club? Bragging rights and pride in the city through winning your local derby's is very important for football clubs and football players and if your own fans are advocating you throwing those games you've got zero chance at all of returning to the top of the game if you don't even have the heart and desire in the players and the fans to win your own derby games and make sure you're at least the best club in your city first and foremost.

The lack of courage above is also a reason they're struggling so badly, have no identity and their recruitment is so desperately poor, the same lack of courage they showed in their game against us. For everything to work you need a system and philosophy of how you want to play and you need to stick to it, if that means you lose some games while you're trying to rebuild, you still stick to it and build that bravery and courage to keep going out playing how you want to moving forward, that's what all the great managers have done and what Jurgen has done at Liverpool. That way you learn very quickly which players have the right mentality, the bravery, the courage and ability to play how you want to, you know who to move on, you see where you can improve from analysing performances and identify the right players to bring in for the positions you need to improve. The filthy don't have that or anything like it and are just randomly buying highly rated players 'off the peg' without any plan whatsoever on what to use them for, like they think by just buying a group of good players it will all suddenly and magically fall into place, it won't. I remember us doing that in our poorer times, although we were never as bad as they currently are, the Collymore signing and his "I don't know any other business or industry in which they'd pay £8.5m for something and not have a plan in place for how they wanted to use it" and that can be said about almost all their signings.

There is also the element of fans and media and former players, they're used to winning, expect to win and won't tolerate anything else or show any patience or understanding and rather than support the players and manager and that other clubs, their players and managers have built up and are now better, we had our fair share of that, but their elements of that are off the scale, they're part of the problem.

I would back Chelsea and Arsenal to both be challenging more sternly again long before the filthy are, because both their managers have a plan, a way they want to play and they're going about trying to build up again in the right way, sticking to their plan, not chopping and changing formation and personnel every 5 minutes and not cowering throwing 11 men behind the ball when they come to play us

[Taksin]

I agree with 19x's thoughts on Ferguson's domestic influence and lack of European impact. We've also shown over the last two seasons, or three including City, how they were never really that dominant. We have accumulated points at a far greater rate whilst the league is generally stronger. Chelsea, Man City, Man U, Arsenal, Leicester, Tottenham and Liverpool all positioning themselves for the top four places. They never had to face that level of competition.

I also happen to know that Fergie wanted Man City to win last year, not us. Some of his nearest and dearest preferred Liverpool to win because they could appreciate that one is a real club with history and the other is bought with money that promotes essentially an evil regime. Some things in life are more important than either success or keeping ahead of your rival.

Which brings us back to the owners and management. We've just come in with a net spend over five years as number 27 in the world, below Watford, Brighton, Everton, Wolves and just above Fulham. A million miles behind City and Utd. Again, net spend guarantees nothing, except an added gaping hole in the heart of the honest man, as the deal with the Devil fails to produce the desired outcome.

Success takes time and skill at all levels but especially at the top of the hierarchy. It also can't be done without the support of those at the bottom of the hierarchy.

Contrast what we are achieving with Tottenham's current fortune. Does anyone else think they have got their ownership/executive model wrong? The stadium is probably the best in the world - imagine how loud it would sound with our fans in it - but Levy looks like he has taken his eye off the ball. Every aspect of mismanagement - like having one striker, also know as underinvestment in the team - exposes not only its immediate effect (poorer goal tally) but also leads to further adverse effects; poorer team moral, less points accumulated, dropping down the table, less revenue, discontent amongst fans, instability in management. Things go to shit.

Man U are going to shit, big time. My own argument is that their revival, if there is to be one, starts upstairs and not with the manager.

[teesred]

Personally dont feel Levy took his eye of the ball. He simply wouldnt take the next step required to develop that team. The season they finished second to Leicester was the time they needed to spend what was needed to add the game changing players they lacked. Theyve not kicked on since then and the CL final loss has stalled them completley.
Im not going along with that Ferguson refs theory. Its a total myth. They won things because they were the best and that was because of him.

[Nineteenx]

Personally dont feel Levy took his eye of the ball. He simply wouldnt take the next step required to develop that team. The season they finished second to Leicester was the time they needed to spend what was needed to add the game changing players they lacked. Theyve not kicked on since then and the CL final loss has stalled them completley.
Im not going along with that Ferguson refs theory. Its a total myth. They won things because they were the best and that was because of him.

It's not a myth, I don't cry foul if something isn't or to be partizan of tribal, I couldn't fault Wenger's inveincibles, they were an awesome side and fantastic to watch and I never ever felt they got the benefit of plain wrong decisions consistently as Ferguson's filthy teams did, they actually had it the other way if anything, being the recipient of appalling wrong decisions against them at times, particularly when playing the filthy or another top side.

If you took the footage of those seasons, filthy games and their closest opposition teams and applied goal line technology, VAR and modern time keeping to the games I absolutely guarantee you it would show they would have won at least a third less of what they did, Ferdinand would have at least 15 career red cards that would also have been 15 penalties against them too, he in particular made so many last man challenges that were blatant pens and red cards that were waved away, they would have had a lot of players sent off in games too, they really did get away with murder. It's done now, so it's not important, but since Ferguson left and they have been playing on a level playing field with officials and with VAR and other developments will have to almost all the time trying to work their way back to challenging for honours, it's going to be a very long and arduous road for them indeed