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Thread: Coronavirus and the impact on football

  1. #1611
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    Seems like the appropriate thread to post this in.

    So Thiago tested positive for COVID, it seems, as the club has just confirmed.
    Hence the reason why he was missing for the game against the Gunners and will likely not feature until mid-October after the international break while he self-isolates.

    It doesn't sound like he has any (serious) symptoms such as other afflicted have had, but I suppose in the interest of preventing any spread this was the step they have to take.

    Not great news and hopefully no one else tests positive as they've been training together with the other lads.
    The last thing we need is a(n even more) extensive injury list this early in the season with the likes of Hendo and Matip already not available.
    'I got told there's an English phrase, 'You don't win trophies with kids'. I didn't know that' ... - Jurgen Klopp
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  2. #1612
    You do wonder when it will totally decimate a squad / team.

    And the consequences... on the sporting side ie postponed or have to play u23s

    I wonder if they want the herd type scenario.

  3. #1613
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    Quote Originally Posted by dicko1969 View Post
    You do wonder when it will totally decimate a squad / team.

    And the consequences... on the sporting side ie postponed or have to play u23s

    I wonder if they want the herd type scenario.
    I believe each team has to have a minimum number of players available to suit up and play (aside from the starting 11) before the league would force them to forfeit the match. Not sure what that number is for the Premier league, but that would have massive ramifications even if a team was able to field 11 players (plus have 5 subs available) but had a significant number of their squad infected and not available. (i.e. would any opposing team they were scheduled to play feel safe enough or comfortable to play them, or take the risk?)

    Also, I have no idea why people are still touting that "herd immunity" scenario as if it's even a viable option.
    You need to have somewhere between 70-90% of people infected and recovered and showing antibodies to even begin to consider having achieved herd immunity and even then it's based on a (still wholly unproven) assumption that any COVID-19 immunity is long-lasting enough that re-infection wouldn't be an issue.

    Sweden already tried this experiment and failed miserably with a lot of people dying who didn't need to.
    'I got told there's an English phrase, 'You don't win trophies with kids'. I didn't know that' ... - Jurgen Klopp
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  4. #1614
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Dynasty View Post
    I
    Also, I have no idea why people are still touting that "herd immunity" scenario as if it's even a viable option.
    You need to have somewhere between 70-90% of people infected and recovered and showing antibodies to even begin to consider having achieved herd immunity and even then it's based on a (still wholly unproven) assumption that any COVID-19 immunity is long-lasting enough that re-infection wouldn't be an issue.
    Not according to Professor Gupta from Oxford, the Stamford epidemiologists like Professor Iaonnides and Professor Wittkowski from New York. They believe 20% is probably enough with this virus, especially as the antibody tests suggest there is a different immune pathway in play (eg T-cells)

    Remember that a study of I think 180 German hospitalised COVID patients showed only about 80% positive antibody test results.

    Gupta says the science shows widespread existing immunity to this virus probably due to exposure to more common and yearly coronaviruses.

    I don’t know where you’re getting your info on Sweden from because most epidemiologists I am aware of believe they probably have already achieved herd immunity. We probably have too in my opinion.

  5. #1615
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    My money is on Thiago being symptom free, as would be any other of our footballers who were ‘infected’ by him.

    Given the known errors in the testing system (up to ten times too many positive results) that would be yet more nonsense in the Imaginary fight for control of a virus doing almost no harm at all to footballers.

  6. #1616
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  7. #1617
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taksin View Post
    Not according to Professor Gupta from Oxford, the Stamford epidemiologists like Professor Iaonnides and Professor Wittkowski from New York. They believe 20% is probably enough with this virus, especially as the antibody tests suggest there is a different immune pathway in play (eg T-cells)

    Remember that a study of I think 180 German hospitalised COVID patients showed only about 80% positive antibody test results.

    Gupta says the science shows widespread existing immunity to this virus probably due to exposure to more common and yearly coronaviruses.

    I don’t know where you’re getting your info on Sweden from because most epidemiologists I am aware of believe they probably have already achieved herd immunity. We probably have too in my opinion.
    Wait,....

    Weren't you the same genius who, not that long ago was suggesting we shouldn't be listening to or doing what experts say we should?

    And now suddenly you're quoting me people like this "Gupta" character from Oxford, and "epidemiologists" (.....er.....I mean,...."most epidemiologists that (you're) aware of"...) all of whom I imagine you believe to be..... (**checks notes**) ....."experts",.... to bolster your claim or belief that Sweden achieved herd immunity? (They haven't. At last check, less than 20% of the Stockholm population where the majority of Sweden's population is clustered, showed any COVID-19 antibodies (it was actually 15% to be precise) and that's well below the threshold of what is commonly considered to be herd immunity (i.e.....70-90% infection and recovery rate ))

    I thought "experts" were not reliable (according to you).
    Suddenly now "experts" are good?
    Or just the experts you like and prefer and choose to listen to?
    (I wonder what they call that phenomenon? There's a name for it, I'm sure. Where you only pay attention to and believe the sources of information that bolster what you already know rather than challenge it. I wish I could put my finger on it.)

    And before you accuse me putting words in your mouth, why don't we just read and take said words from horse's own mouth.
    I suggest paying attention to the bolded part . You wrote them, after all.
    (bolded by me, for emphasis)....

    Quote Originally Posted by Taksin View Post
    ......

    And again, 'doing what experts say you should' is terrible advice in my opinion. We have to use our judgement, especially in a complex system - the global human organisation - where fixating on one problem is obviously limited to say the least. I'd prefer to say idiotic so I'm not that impressed with some of the more influential scientists. Algorithms are not a good way to make decisions on the future in complex systems. That is a totally different topic but completely relevant.......

    Why do you keep doing this to yourself?
    Just open mouth and insert foot whole, shoe and all.


    What's really weird (and some would say funny) about that quote, is that the post of yours I pulled it from was chock full of what some would consider "Experts" that you were referencing yourself,.....all while in the middle of suggesting that listening to experts is bad.


    Oh, and I already listed where I got my info from Sweden from in that post you responded to (where I got the above quote of yours from). But just so there's no confusion, I'll post it again so you can once more ignore it...... again.


    https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-08-covid-herd-immunity-sweden-materialize.html

    "The health authorities predicted that 40% of the Stockholm population would have had the disease and acquired antibodies by May 2020.
    However, the actual prevalence figure was around 15%."

    And just so we're clear here, the "health authorities" in question here are SWEDEN'S own health authorities and the SWEDISH government.
    Take up any issues you have with that figure with them.
    I'm sure you're more of an "expert" than they are on their own numbers.

    I'd stick to spinning baseless conspiracy theories instead of constantly picking pointless fights you keep losing.
    'I got told there's an English phrase, 'You don't win trophies with kids'. I didn't know that' ... - Jurgen Klopp
    Stone-Cold Savage!

  8. #1618
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    wow.. so, touchy. I was just having an impersonal conversation, CD. God knows why you're so uptight. Where in the above two posts have I suddenly changed to agreeing with you that we should do what the experts tell us to do? That is not what I believe and is not something any of my comments indicate. You are getting confused in the effort to discuss a very complex scientific subject.

    You made some clear statements about herd immunity that I know to be far less clear than you imply. You've launched into supportive facts about antibodies but I've just said that the evidence doesn't support the antibody immunity pathway being the main (or only) pathway and given examples to back that up.

    The opposing views, which I am presenting, therefore do not base their calculations on your chosen evidence -

    "The health authorities predicted that 40% of the Stockholm population would have had the disease and acquired antibodies by May 2020. However, the actual prevalence figure was around 15%."

    - because the antibody story is not sufficient to explain the observed immunity (as I pointed out clearly in the passages you appear not to have read). As Gupta says below, the proof is in the pudding.

    As it happens, there is an awful lot that the experts are still in the dark about. We have to use our judgement to interpret their advice as, clearly, they can't agree with each other. Even if they did agree, we (or politicians) would still have to make judgements about how to act in response to what they are saying. If we are free people, that is.

    Here is professor Gupta from a few days ago covering the key facts for this exchange. For some reason people seem to want to slander her with all kinds of personal insults for saying what she believes. I find that a bit disturbing.

    I'm not interested in any kind of fight with you on here, CD, but I do think the government has got things badly wrong and I do think it's important to point out the reasons why on this thread, which is why I responded to your posts.



    Sunetra Gupta - Something that is becoming a scientific fact: Pre-existing resistance to COVID-19
    Last edited by Taksin; 29th September 2020 at 11:52 PM.

  9. #1619
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taksin View Post
    wow.. so, touchy. I was just having an impersonal conversation, CD. God knows why you're so uptight. Where in the above two posts have I suddenly changed to agreeing with you that we should do what the experts tell us to do? That is not what I believe and is not something any of my comments indicate. You are getting confused in the effort to discuss a very complex scientific subject.
    Then what is your objective in constantly referencing Dr. Gupta (an "expert", I believe - it says 'Professor of Theoretical Epidemiology,'...so that checks out) to bolster your own arguments and claims if not as a logical appeal to the very same sort of authority that you seem to want dismiss when others do the same in their own arguments?

    Look, I have no issue with you citing whatever "experts" you feel like and which will best support whatever view you want to convey here (as long as you're willing to stand by their credibility or defend any lack thereof).
    Just don't be a hypocrite about it and dismiss other people's "experts" when making their own arguments and essentially contradict yourself because you're essentially doing what you seem to imply others shouldn't.

    Sweden is currently experiencing an uptick in daily infections just like everywhere else so much so that their Public Health Agency is now even recommending masks for public spaces (a measure they didn't even adopt during their "herd immunity" experiment phase). So whatever immunity you or anyone else thinks they got out of that, it simply isn't there.

    I wasn't looking for a fight with you either.
    You're the one who replied to my comment, remember?
    And prior to that I intentionally didn't respond to your last response to me (where the aforementioned "experts" remark came from).
    'I got told there's an English phrase, 'You don't win trophies with kids'. I didn't know that' ... - Jurgen Klopp
    Stone-Cold Savage!

  10. #1620
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Dynasty View Post
    Then what is your objective in constantly referencing Dr. Gupta (an "expert", I believe - it says 'Professor of Theoretical Epidemiology,'...
    The reason I quote Gupta is because she is a deeply thoughtful and wise person who has a very good grasp of the facts. She disagrees with the mainstream of thought and action adopted by the government, their scientific advisers, the media and the majority of the population. She believes their understanding is leading to a different kind of catastrophe being unnecessarily visited upon us. That's interesting and relevant isn't it?

    I have stated on here that I believe we should be watching football live and the only way we will do that is if the population puts pressure on the government to set us free again as the government are to spineless to do something that upsets the voters, even if they think it might be right. I am therefore campaigning for the population to change its mind.

    Why do you ignore what Gupta and others like her have said?


    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Dynasty View Post

    Sweden is currently experiencing an uptick in daily infections just like everywhere else so much so that their Public Health Agency is now even recommending masks for public spaces (a measure they didn't even adopt during their "herd immunity" experiment phase).
    Firstly, you are not making the distinction between cases and deaths or responding to the problems with testing highlighted many times above, such as the 'infection' of Thiago Alcantara being a probable non event. Are you concerned for his life, for example, or do you actually believe his immune system will deal with the pathogen easily?

    Secondly, I don't think Sweden is some kind of perfect place that will only make correct decisions. I believe they have been shown to be wise by going against lockdown, trusting their population and believing in herd immunity. Good for them. If they have agencies within the country who now favour wearing masks, this comes as no surprise to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Dynasty View Post
    So whatever immunity you or anyone else thinks they got out of that, it simply isn't there.
    This is a very confident statement from you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Dynasty View Post
    I wasn't looking for a fight with you either.
    You're the one who replied to my comment, remember?
    You made a clear statement;

    "You need to have somewhere between 70-90% of people infected and recovered and showing antibodies to even begin to consider having achieved herd immunity and even then it's based on a (still wholly unproven) assumption that any COVID-19 immunity is long-lasting enough that re-infection wouldn't be an issue."

    I believe this is wrong. And as I am campaigning against those who hold similar beliefs I responded to the statement, without using antagonistic goading aimed at you personally.
    Last edited by Taksin; 30th September 2020 at 09:12 AM.

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