Coronavirus and the impact on football

[Taksin]

That's the thing mate, not too many .mostly just like a head cold or not showing symptoms at all. I guess the worry is passing it to the older generation. (Well thats what they want you too believe.)

Well in that case we are riddled with it over here too!

[Crimson Dynasty]

Wow.

This is about the most head-scratching (and not in a good way), and just.....flat out dumbest discussion on this (...a very serious) subject and issue as I've ever seen anywhere.

How someone can say (with what I can only imagine was a straight face while typing it) that "it's a bad respiratory virus" (which,.... just happens to have killed over a million people in the world in just 8 months,....but whatever) and then in almost the same breath immediately follow that up with "...it has many redeeming features" is beyond my comprehension and just beggars belief.
As if the fact that it seemingly doesn't as adversely affect the "young and healthy" as it does the elderly and infirm is any "redeeming" quality in any actual serious sense of the word (because, of course,....as we all know.....fuck those old geezers, pensioners and sick. Amiright?)

And put aside for moment the asinine comparisons to Flu and flu deaths - a disease for which vaccines and flu shots actually DO exist - (unlike the coronavirus), and to the extent that people do get sick and die from it might stem from the fact of a lot more people than is ideal, neglecting to get their flu shot when Flu season rolls around, among other differences in the situations.
Yes, both disease are bad, and people die from both.
Could we maybe try to reduce the number of deaths from both with all the tools we have and can develop without minimizing either just because the other just happens to exist?

And now we've actually come around down to actual Donald Trump talking points of "if we just didn't test that many people or test people all the time, then perhaps the infection rate wouldn't be so high" ....or, if we didn't do the responsible thing and test our players, we wouldn't have found Mane's or Thiago's or Shaq's infection and they'd be just fine eventually (forget the fact that in that time they'd be shedding virus and infecting a buttload of other people) - ........which is the rhetorical equivalent of a toddler believing that if we just do this....(*covers eyes with hands*)....the world stops existing.
Forget also even for a moment that the man who elevated and then peddled that silly talking point to begin with, eventually (and some would argue, inevitably) got himself infected just this past week due to his own stupidity and put his own and others' lives at risk.
Forget even for a moment that even if were to go with the view that if we didn't test our own players and know who was infected under the assumption that even if they had it, and that indeed the symptoms are probably mild and these are fit athletes in the prime of their health lives, after all,....that these players still have families to go back to (potentially and likely including very young children with possible immune-compromised conditions) and might in any case come in contact with other people who are not as healthy as they are, and perhaps maybe we might not want them to be unknowingly passing the virus to folks like those because maybe we don't want them to.....I don't know.......die?


And all this coming from a self-proclaimed medical "expert" (not really sure if he'd call himself that)....or at least practitioner.

I weep for the species.

Also, point of note :
The reason (or at least, a large likely reason) that Donald Trump may seem to be dealing well enough with it - despite his high risk factors of his advanced age, weight/obesity/health status - is because he's receiving the kind of treatment and therapeutics (and experimental, unapproved) that you and I likely would never be able to get (And which over 210,000 of his own now dead countrymen and women never were able to get), ....coupled with easy and ready access to the sort of 24/7 medical attention, care and services that the vast resources of the richest country on the face of this planet can provide for possibly the singular most significant civilian there.

And he's not even out of the woods yet.

Lest we forget, hs dear late friend Herman Cain (same age as him) also started feeling "better" and talking about improvements in his condition barely days after his infection and test result and initial hospitalization, ....only to be dead in the ground two weeks after that.

[Taksin]

How someone can say (with what I can only imagine was a straight face while typing it) that "it's a bad respiratory virus" (which,.... just happens to have killed over a million people in the world in just 8 months,....but whatever) and then in almost the same breath immediately follow that up with "...it has many redeeming features" is beyond my comprehension and just beggars belief.
As if the fact that it seemingly doesn't as adversely affect the "young and healthy" as it does the elderly and infirm is any "redeeming" quality in any actual serious sense of the word (because, of course,....as we all know.....fuck those old geezers, pensioners and sick. Amiright?)

Try sticking to the actual points and arguments, CR, and you'll find you don't have to invent ideas such me believing we should say 'fuck the old geezers'. I could just as well turn that around on you and claim you think 'fuck all these people who have lost their jobs, those in the third world who have seen actual, real poverty (the kind that leads to starvation) climb steeply for the first time in 25 years, or those 25,000 people who will die early from missed cancer treatment (in this country alone). But I don't accuse you of such crude things because I know you don't believe them. I do, however, challenge you to try taking them into account.

The quote that offends you was taken out of context (by you). I made those comments about covid being a bad respiratory virus (which it is) in response to SR's comment

"Flu does not carry such an inhumane suffering."

The fact that we have flu vaccines didn't stop three flu strains killing one million people worldwide as recently as the winter of 2017/18. Google it - you'll see they were building field hospitals from tents in New York to cope with the numbers. I don't see what difference your flu vaccine argument makes to the claim that this virus causes inhumane suffering in comparison to that flu season. Can you explain it to me? That was the question I was asking in that passage. It was in comparison to that kind of season, which is fairly common and which I started off by pointing out forms 8 out of the last 27 winter seasons, that this virus has redeeming features. For instance there is little or no reason to fear for school children - we know that now. Do you not think that is a good thing?

I pointed out earlier that the average mortality age from Covid in Sweden of 83 amounted to 'normal mortality'. You don't seem to have grasped this point or it seems to make you uneasy, but I'm sorry to keep pointing out that elderly people do die. If you do some googling you'll find discussions in the media of strong flu seasons recently in Britain, with speculations about why they happen. One reason is that they follow mild fu seasons or a series of mild flu seasons.

There is a build up of elderly people who didn't meet their end during the milder seasons and that leads to a bigger death toll in the year with the fiercer virus. This is a natural cycle. Bringing morality into it as you are doing for who is spreading it, who doesn't care about their families and who is behaving like Donald Trump has never been done until this year. It is your behaviour that is strange. We used to understand the flow of nature and accommodate it into our conception of reality. Now many people such as yourself seem to think a global lockdown until a vaccine is created is the only logical approach to take.

They had vaccines for all the flus of those recent seasons by the way. I think you're holding out for something that will never arrive, personally, but I'd appreciate a little less of the insults in these debates (I ask once again). Everything I have said has been sincere and considered. No need to get all exasperated with my stupidity. When the vaccine arrives I will almost certainly be advising against taking it, by the way. You won't catch me taking it - nor will Professor Gupta nor Professor Cahill, who has a company that produces vaccines. But there's no need to get into that now - suffice to say I'm not impressed with your lofty dismissal based on the standard media and government line in special virus fear.

[Taksin]

I weep for the species.

hahaha

[ianlfc]

Well in that case we are riddled with it over here too!

The problem being thousands of jobs will be lost through no fault of their own. Musicians have been asked to retrain,Pubs are closing as are hotels , tradesmen are being sent home as sites have people on them with it and nightclubs are going to be a thing of the past as is a bloody holiday !!
All this from a virus that kills the weak. Who would've thought it ?

[Kev0909]

These vifrus's are just natures way of fighting back...... at some point in the future, there will be something that's actually deadly.

Fuck people, fuck cars!

#naturesfinest

[Taksin]

The problem being thousands of jobs will be lost through no fault of their own. Musicians have been asked to retrain,Pubs are closing as are hotels , tradesmen are being sent home as sites have people on them with it and nightclubs are going to be a thing of the past as is a bloody holiday !!
All this from a virus that kills the weak. Who would've thought it ?

try asking for proof that any of these measures change the behaviour of the virus and you will be met with silence

[ianlfc]

try asking for proof that any of these measures change the behaviour of the virus and you will be met with silence

As the bars have to close at 10 it only comes out after that. It's a crafty virus, I'll give it that.

[ianlfc]

These vifrus's are just natures way of fighting back...... at some point in the future, there will be something that's actually deadly.

Fuck people, fuck cars!

#naturesfinest

Have you Watched the new david Attenborough programme on Netflix?
The man knows his stuff and makes you think about what we are doing to the world.

[Crimson Dynasty]

Try sticking to the actual points and arguments, CR, and you'll find you don't have to invent ideas such me believing we should say 'fuck the old geezers'. I could just as well turn that around on you and claim you think 'fuck all these people who have lost their jobs, those in the third world who have seen actual, real poverty (the kind that leads to starvation) climb steeply for the first time in 25 years, or those 25,000 people who will die early from missed cancer treatment (in this country alone). But I don't accuse you of such crude things because I know you don't believe them. I do, however, challenge you to try taking them into account.

Ah yes,....


The old "a poor child is dying of starvation somewhere in Africa" stand-in counter-argument.
And if you don't think about those starving children in Africa (or ..."insert-tin-pot-Third-World-Country-that-I-otherwise-normally-don't-give-a-fuck-about" here), then you can't argue your case and we can't deal with the current issue at hand in this instance here.

Because of course, chewing gum and walking at the same time....
Totally not a thing.

Trying to figure out a way out of this terrible disease's impact does not mean we've stopped worrying about or trying to help with starving or suffering people in other parts of the world or that we don't recognize that its hitting everyone hard right now (and them even harder).

The difference is, I'm not (shamelessly?) using them and their plight as a bulwark and cudgel against someone else's arguments or position, right before proceeding to not caring about them (....again) when this crisis is over.

It's always amusing to me when people do that.
(....but probably not to them . The starving children/suffering people, I mean)

........

The fact that we have flu vaccines didn't stop three flu strains killing one million people worldwide as recently as the winter of 2017/18. Google it - you'll see they were building field hospitals from tents in New York to cope with the numbers. .....

And how many people were saved by the vaccines and flu shots in that same season who otherwise might have been added to that number? Which seems to be the fact that you're overlooking.
That while the vaccines are not 100% effective for all strains of flu, they DO exist and they give us something to work with and to build on to try to get better vaccines as time goes by, to reduce the number of deaths with each passing Flu season, even as we strive to ensure more people are more responsible about getting their shots. (Again, a large number of people who die do so because of negligence in getting a shot that otherwise would have helped save them.)

We currently don't have a working vaccine or working therapeutic for coronavirus.

How you are still not seeing that this isn't a good nor valid comparison to make?

Is your implication that even with a vaccine, people still die of the same disease the vaccine is supposed to tackle? Or that diseases can sometimes have multiple (and often mutating) strains that make it that much harder to have an consistent and effective countermeasure?
Because we already knew all that.
As should you as someone who claims to be in the medical profession.

The larger point seems to be that people like yourself always seem to like to throw in the "well people die from the Flu too" or "More people die from the Flu" -type chaff argument into discussions like this to try to derail the debate and almost insinuate or suggest that since people are dying anyway, why fuss all this much with this particular disease (which isn't even that bad since it's killing people who were going to die anyway) - especially when it inconveniences ME, specifically, who's not at great risk of dying from it.

Which is almost tantaamount to arguing that,.... well, people are going to die from car accidents anyway so why are we bothering with traffic rules and traffic laws that seem to me to do nothing more than just make my morning drive to work more aggravating?

It was in comparison to that kind of season, which is fairly common and which I started off by pointing out forms 8 out of the last 27 winter seasons, that this virus has redeeming features. For instance there is little or no reason to fear for school children - we know that now. Do you not think that is a good thing?

You do realize that "good" and "redeeming" are not in fact, interchangeable nor synonymous of each other in meaning, right?

There's nothing redeeming about this disease.
Yes, it is good that younger people seem not to be as adversely affected as older people by it.
But no, it's STILL bad that it's adversely affecting and killing those elder folks, and the infirm, and sick and immune-compromised people - some of whom might not be old.
Someone's depending on that person - even if just emotionally or psychologically.

A child losing a parent or grandparent or sibling from a disease that didn't affect them as badly is neither "redeeming" nor even good simply because they survived and their parent (or grandparent) didn't.

There is a build up of elderly people who didn't meet their end during the milder seasons and that leads to a bigger death toll in the year with the fiercer virus. This is a natural cycle. Bringing morality into it as you are doing for who is spreading it, who doesn't care about their families and who is behaving like Donald Trump has never been done until this year. It is your behaviour that is strange. We used to understand the flow of nature and accommodate it into our conception of reality.

I here I thought that morality was a BIG part of medicine and medical science - especially seeing as the entire profession is built upon the premise of trying to SAVE LIVES.

Was I mistaken?
Who knew?

So I guess we should bin all that 'medical ethics' and 'compassion' and 'responsible patient care' all out of the window too since it all falls under the same morality umbrella.

Now many people such as yourself seem to think a global lockdown until a vaccine is created is the only logical approach to take.

Literally NOBODY I know of has ever suggested such a ridiculous thing.

It's just a(n amateurish) hyperbolic exaggeration on your part (in very bad faith) to try to paint an opposing view as so extreme and outlandish that no one should even consider what's actually being proposed, that you disagree with.

There's a far cry from "lockdown as necessary to prevent uncontrolled spread of the disease, and thus minimize the likelihood of overwhelming the medical services and essential workers/medical professionals with a deluge of sick people (even if they all don't die), and then responsibly open back up carefully while being cognizant of social practices to give Medical Epidemiological research teams the space to develop a vaccine"
....to......"global lockdown until a vaccine is created and consider nothing else"

Those two positions are not even in the same area code let alone same building.

Who suggested that?
What the hell are you even talking about?

Geeez.

Do you really think anyone anywhere enjoys not being able to go to work, or go to public places or congregate in crowds like we could before? - let alone any government actually benefitting from a prolonged state of this kind of situation?

They had vaccines for all the flus of those recent seasons by the way. I think you're holding out for something that will never arrive, personally, but I'd appreciate a little less of the insults in these debates (I ask once again). Everything I have said has been sincere and considered. No need to get all exasperated with my stupidity. When the vaccine arrives I will almost certainly be advising against taking it, by the way. You won't catch me taking it - nor will Professor Gupta nor Professor Cahill, who has a company that produces vaccines. But there's no need to get into that now - suffice to say I'm not impressed with your lofty dismissal based on the standard media and government line in special virus fear.

I absolutely love the fact that you ask for no 'insults' and no need to get exasperated with your "stupidity" (your word; not mine), and then almost immediately follow it up with this little gem,....


"....When the vaccine arrives I will almost certainly be advising against taking it, by the way. You won't catch me taking it - nor will Professor Gupta nor Professor Cahill, who has a company that produces vaccines. But there's no need to get into that now - suffice to say I'm not impressed with your lofty dismissal based on the standard media and government line in special virus fear."


Brilliant.

Never change, my friend.
Never change.