Coronavirus and the impact on football

[Taksin]

some responses

The difference is, I'm not (shamelessly?) using them and their plight as a bulwark and cudgel against someone else's arguments or position, right before proceeding to not caring about them (....again) when this crisis is over.

It's always amusing to me when people do that.
(....but probably not to them . The starving children/suffering people, I mean)

I don't use those arguments to form my case but I decided it was fair game because you had finished your previous attack with the emotional statement;

"Lest we forget, hs dear late friend Herman Cain (same age as him) also started feeling "better" and talking about improvements in his condition barely days after his infection and test result and initial hospitalization, ....only to be dead in the ground two weeks after that."

I'm not saying you were shameless but I genuinely don't understand what gives you the moral high ground in this instance. My question remains, are these measures worth it and if so, how do you calculate that?

And how many people were saved by the vaccines and flu shots in that same season who otherwise might have been added to that number? Which seems to be the fact that you're overlooking.

I'm not overlooking it. The article I read earlier today and referred you to from 2017 claims that the vaccines probably didn't work as one possible explanation for the high death rate that year. The other explanation was the cyclical death rate among the elderly that I mentioned and that you continue to ignore.

You may also be interested to remember that there are some theories that covid lethality was higher among those who had received the flu vaccine this winter (notably in Lombardy). I'm not sure what the latest thinking is on this but things are always more complicated than 'we're almost there'.

We currently don't have a working vaccine or working therapeutic for coronavirus.

Although you made a big deal of the therapeutics Donald Trump is receiving in your post as if they were unfair and explained his recovery. As far as I am aware they are actually quite cheap and available to most people, including many in the third world.

The vaccine for the previous severe coronavirus - SARS - went very badly and was cancelled. Do you know anything about that? There was actually a very high incidence of chronic narcolepsy caused by it in the study group that lead to its abandonment. But much worse things happened to the animal study groups that are actually chilling to consider, especially as we are rushing this one and doing away with normal due diligence. Your mockery of me for my comments on vaccines doesn't look too clever when you know something about these facts.

How you are still not seeing that this isn't a good nor valid comparison to make?

I don't know what comparison you are making here sorry.

Is your implication that even with a vaccine, people still die of the same disease the vaccine is supposed to tackle? Or that diseases can sometimes have multiple (and often mutating) strains that make it that much harder to have an consistent and effective countermeasure?
Because we already knew all that.
As should you as someone who claims to be in the medical profession.

No that isn't my implication.

The larger point seems to be that people like yourself always seem to... ...especially when it inconveniences ME, specifically, who's not at great risk of dying from it.

Is that what people like me say or is that in your imagination?

Which is almost tantaamount to arguing that,.... well, people are going to die from car accidents anyway so why are we bothering with traffic rules and traffic laws that seem to me to do nothing more than just make my morning drive to work more aggravating?

I don't see that as tantamount at all. But your logic seems a bit emotional for me to have a generous interchange with you. My claims and desires are very respectable, shared by many, including leading experts. They are calling for normal life to resume. The case against people who think like me still needs to be made in a sober and generous manner.

You do realize that "good" and "redeeming" are not in fact, interchangeable nor synonymous of each other in meaning, right?

Yes I do.

There's nothing redeeming about this disease.

Yes, it is good that younger people seem not to be as adversely affected as older people by it.

The flu kills many young people, including healthy children, most years. I think it suits you to nit pick on my use of language rather than admit this virus is in fact remarkably safe for these populations, a fact that could easily be seen as a redeeming feature by users of the English language. A good feature of a bad entity is a redeeming feature.

What do you mean by redeeming?

But no, it's STILL bad that it's adversely affecting and killing those elder folks, and the infirm, and sick and immune-compromised people - some of whom might not be old.
Someone's depending on that person - even if just emotionally or psychologically.

How does this emotional appeal square up with the way you ridicule the appeal to third world poverty? Yes, there is a huge amount of suffering around. Yes, we still have to decide what actions to take. For good reasons, your preferences should not be seen as axiomatic.

I here I thought that morality was a BIG part of medicine and medical science - especially seeing as the entire profession is built upon the premise of trying to SAVE LIVES.

Was I mistaken?

We've already raised the thorny issue of the harm that our actions are inflicting on people. So this is turned back on you.

Isn't it?

Or as the Hippocratic oath puts it, 'first do no harm'.

So I guess we should bin all that 'medical ethics' and 'compassion' and 'responsible patient care' all out of the window too since it all falls under the same morality umbrella.

No, because I was accusing you of introducing a new morality about the spreading of the disease and the irresponsibility of people like me who advocate a different strategy. Before, infectious respiratory diseases were understood to spread naturally. I am just arguing that this one does the same thing. You are imagining we can control it by our moral actions.

Why, I think we even used to show more compassion to those who spread HIV and that was a disease that actually could be controlled by moral action. Maybe your accusation that people like me might be motivated by self interested is a kind of projection?


re my comment that people taking your position believe; a global lockdown until a vaccine is created is the only logical approach to take

Literally NOBODY I know of has ever suggested such a ridiculous thing.

Who suggested that?
What the hell are you even talking about?

The Prime Minister of New Zealand has declared the country closed until a vaccine is found.

Bill Gates has stated publicly that this lockdown will have to stay until the whole world is vaccinated.

Your own argument also seems to be that vaccination is our main hope. Not sure why this comes as such a surprise to you. You said this 'and to the extent that people do get sick and die from it might stem from the fact of a lot more people than is ideal, neglecting to get their flu shot when Flu season rolls around'
I very much disagree with it as a statement but you can see why I mistook you for believing in vaccines as the answer.

I absolutely love the fact that you ask for no 'insults' and no need to get exasperated with your "stupidity" (your word; not mine), and then almost immediately follow it up with this little gem,....

And yet you started you previous post with this;

This is about the most head-scratching (and not in a good way), and just.....flat out dumbest discussion on this (...a very serious) subject and issue as I've ever seen anywhere.

Indeed it was my word not yours but I think remembering 'dumbest' as implying stupid is really not that far off is it.. You also compared my position to a child covering its eyes and pretending its not happening.

Oh, and you imply that 'this little gem' was actually stupid, to round off your incoherence. But it was no more than a statement of truth based on my informed opinion. And I mentioned two experts on vaccines who have publicly said the exact same thing that you parody as being stupid. That's why I said 'there's no need to get into that now'

Brilliant.

Never change, my friend.
Never change.

Not sure what gets to you so much but your tone is obviously insulting and sarcastic. If you could address the actual points with some accuracy and fairness we might have a productive conversation

[Taksin]

"for the world at large, normalcy only returns when we have largely vaccinated the entire global population"

[Kev0909]

Have you Watched the new david Attenborough programme on Netflix?
The man knows his stuff and makes you think about what we are doing to the world.

I have indeed, things are moving slowly for the best but...... they're going to slow..it'll be too late before these jokers get there act together (world leaders)

Can't really be helped but considering a lot of people are meant to be working from home at the moment, the roads are still busy as ever.. I walk 4 miles just to get to a big forest area (cannock chase), luckily i'm not that far away- but it's so good when I finally get there no more sounds of cars etc.... just peace and the sounds of nature, makes a refreshing change, everything feels better even breathing.

I've been wondering what I can do myself- every little helps but there's not much I possibly can do outside what i already do.

There's even fucking masks everywhere on the paths /around my area now, people really are shit and some deserve to get this virus, if only it specifically targeted the stupid cunts it would be brilliant, heck make it more deadly too.

[Insidious]

Can't really be helped but considering a lot of people are meant to be working from home at the moment, the roads are still busy as ever.. I walk 4 miles just to get to a big forest area (cannock chase), luckily i'm not that far away- but it's so good when I finally get there no more sounds of cars etc.... just peace and the sounds of nature, makes a refreshing change, everything feels better even breathing.

I've been wondering what I can do myself- every little helps but there's not much I possibly can do outside what i already do.

Could probably use a separate thread but I really like my Wildlife/Nature (mainly Birds but am trying to learn more) and am looking at little ways in which I can "re-wild" pockets of areas locally.

I won't see the fruits of my Labours for years to their fullest degree, but I like to get cheap seeds of pollinators and disperse them at waste ground and so on.

There's a long grass bank about a mile away that's parallel to the roadside (near a local park) that I have begun to trim of the ecologically uninspiring grass with a view to gradually altering the length of it into a pit-stop for Bees and Butterflies, whilst I'm also looking into a few things where I could make proposals to my local farmer (who is open-minded) as he owns land that overlaps with a local country park called the Cavehill in Northern Ireland - he has a small cliffy area on his land surrounded by various grass and shrubs full of Shrews etc and the cliffy section is used by Kestrels - the "cliffs" such as they are, are probably only 40 feet tall and not well sheltered so I'm getting a Kestrel box and trying to source an inexpensive way to get that mounted so they have more chance of egg success (if they use a box with a roof rather than a bare cliff the eggs are less threatened by the elements) should they nest.

He also left one of his fields alone this last year - no Cows, no machinery - and it's the first year I have seen Siskins or Long-Eared Owl over that area of land.

Believe me, you can do a lot - everyone can. I'm doing more research so I can contact local councillors when better-prepared for extensive questions, but even taking the likes of these new build housing areas that are everywhere that have a green area in the centre rather than the Houses having gardens as an example - it only requires people to accept something like 5 California Lilac bushes rather than just plain lawn and you can begin to "connect the dots" of areas for Nature.

There's a guy in NI called "the Phantom Planter" who plants trees in quiet spots on the regular, anonymously - and encourages others to do the same. Now, it needs done "right" in my eyes (people might plant non-pollinators that block light for important plants, people might plant a non-native Juniper too close to a native genus etc) but the principle of the idea is lovely.

We can do so much. Take the House Martin and the Swift - their numbers are dropping fast and hard because we (collectively as a species) have changed our House design - the eaves of houses are often made of PVC etc now and when these Birds make their nests out of a combination of collected mud and their own saliva, the mix doesn't "stick" to the eaves in the same way and they either waste valuable Summer time building failing nests, or the nest collapses at an important stage and eggs/chicks are lost.

If even a couple of Houses in an area committed to sticking up an artificial House Martin or Swift box, they could make an enormous difference to Birds that are quintessentially part of the Summer experience and it doesn't take a monumental effort.

We have the power.

[Steveo]

What a fantastic post Sid.

[justincredible]

Sid, that's beautiful.

[Taksin]

This was a headline in the paper today. The facts are starting to emerge - will we be able to change our beliefs?

Coronavirus lockdowns 'may kill MORE than herd immunity strategy does': Strict restrictions and school closures could increase deaths as Covid bounces back, major study finds

Ministers were last night under intense pressure to rethink after experts cast fresh doubt over Covid restrictions.

Research released on Wednesday shows that strict lockdowns – particularly those curbing the activities of the young – are unlikely to cut deaths in the long run and may even increase them.

The Edinburgh University study examined various lockdown-style scenarios and found that while they might protect hospitals, they could also prolong the pandemic and prevent the build-up of herd immunity.

The scientists concluded that coronavirus required a different strategy from a flu epidemic – and the focus should be on shielding the elderly and vulnerable.

Lead author Professor Graeme Ackland, from Edinburgh University, said: ‘Unless a vaccine magically appears and is rolled out across the entire population in the next six months, then shutting down society is unlikely to reduce overall deaths.’


Any of it sound familiar?

[justme]

Typical BBC on their home page right now. they have a man walking past with a mask on and in the background a huge bloated up image of the covid-19 virus.
This kinda stuff is being thrust in your face. We already know whats going on. The entire world does. But its becoming tiresome.
But its still here 24/7 like it was back in March.almost 7 months of being under the microscope ain't helping peoples state of mind.

[Kev0909]

Fair enough sid, I guess i just need to be a bit creative and think a bit harder haha

[Crimson Dynasty]

I wasn't going to get back into this, but for some reason this little part,......was just bugging me out and begging to be addressed.
I never learn, do I?
Oh well.....
(underlining mine, for emphasis. we'll get to that in a bit...)

........
And yet you started you previous post with this;

This is about the most head-scratching (and not in a good way), and just.....flat out dumbest discussion on this (...a very serious) subject and issue as I've ever seen anywhere.

Indeed it was my word not yours but I think remembering 'dumbest' as implying stupid is really not that far off is it.. You also compared my position to a child covering its eyes and pretending its not happening.

Oh, and you imply that 'this little gem' was actually stupid, to round off your incoherence. But it was no more than a statement of truth based on my informed opinion. And I mentioned two experts on vaccines who have publicly said the exact same thing that you parody as being stupid. That's why I said 'there's no need to get into that now'

.......

So what you're essentially telling us is that you're incapable of telling the difference (like, LITERALLY incapable) between when someone calls a DISCUSSION 'dumb' (particularly the way it's being carried out), and when someone calls YOU, the person, specifically, ......'stupid' (your word),....or even 'dumb', if you prefer.
I mean it's RIGHT THERE, in the quote of mine you quoted (and which I've underlined for your benefit) - what exactly I was referring to as "Dumb".
Unless "Taksin" translates to "Discussion" in a language I'm unfamiliar with....

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

But thanks for clarifying that.

Reading Comprehension is hard, I guess.

And thank you also for quoting me back my own comment that actually highlighted that fact (that I called the discussion and not YOU, dumb....which you somehow were STILL incapable of understanding correctly even after reading it, and quoting it and presumably reading it again). I'm very deliberate when I describe things or people as 'dumb' or stupid' and the distinction between when each is done because I realize in life that sometimes (otherwise) clever people tend to do stupid things,.....which doesn't automatically then make them stupid.

I don't know what that says about you,... or your intelligence (that you couldn't tell that difference), but I'm not going to speculate for fear of what that 'superbrain' of yours will do with that assessment, and what it will look like when it gets to the other side and is interpreted into whatever you see (or want to see and think) I said or meant (or implied).

And I'll double down on the comparison that the suggestion that we shouldn't test more (for coronavirus infections) for fear of finding out more people are infected (whom you think would otherwise recover on their own without issue or self-quarantining - while ignoring that the whole purpose of that is to identify and prevent the spread of the disease even from people who aren't feeling symptomatic or outwardly sick to healthy people), as you implied the team shouldn't have been doing with our players, and as one Donald Trump suggested earlier (That the testing was the reason for the high numbers of infected in the US, even while he was hypocritically having everyone he came in contact with tested for his own safety), IS the equivalent of a child covering their eyes because they don't want to see or deal with the truth of the world and prefer to believe in their own reality absent of facts and data.

Whether you see that as me calling YOU (the person, ....not the position. Or both) as stupid, I don't really care at this point. That's all in your head and a perception and comprehension problem on your end as far as I'm concerned.

It IS a stupid position to hold and I'll double down on it.
The only reason we countenance it in children is because their brains haven't developed enough to appreciate the phenomenon of object (im)permanence and hence don't know any better.
In a grown-up adult who presumably has an education and SHOULD know better (and then ends up getting infected himself, like some have), it is stupid.
And childish.

But do feel free to take whatever personal insult you feel affronted by from that regardless of how clear I've explained it.
Because at this point that's a "YOU" problem, and not "ME" problem anymore (if ever it was).

I can't be bothered to address any of the rest of the .....stuff... you posted, but I'm sure you're getting good counsel from the experts you've curated and decided are good enough for your consumption (**coughcough**cherry-picked**coughcough**)......even while the rest of us 'shouldn't listen to the advice of "experts"' according to a very very clever person who said so on here not that long ago.

P.S. New Zealand is one out of 200-something independent and sovereign countries and territories on this planet,with less than 0.001% of the world's population.
"Global" implies EVERY country on the face of the planet.
And last I checked Bill Gates is neither the president of any country nor the Globe (te actual world not the print media) much less an actual medical expert.
But all that's neither here nor there.

As you were.