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Thread: Summer transfer thread

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by eggy81 View Post
    Johnny giles reckons Robertson above all others should as things stand win player of the year. I'm in Ireland and I like giles but imo that's pure shite. If anything hes not as good as last season. While still being fecking class obviously
    Another example of someone being paid to talk about the game when they know next to f-all about the game, particularly anything current and/or anything to do with clubs they have no connection to.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taksin View Post
    D'you know what pal.. and I am being serious here. I've started to think the genius of Klopp is that he doesn't really have a system. It's a kind of meta-system that doesn't actually require players to fit into it. The system fits into them.

    We've had a clue about this because Minamino said Klopp told him to play exactly the way he wants to play. That is, on the surface, complete freedom, which players lose under most other managers
    That's standard for a new player under Jurgen, it's a short term thing, I believe the theory is, "You know what we do, go and play as you usually would or naturally would and try and be part of it" that will bring both good and bad things, some that work, some that don't, it might offer a new dynamic or solution against certain opposition we haven't yet developed. When you sign a new player you don't want to take away anything new they might bring to the side or stifle any of their qualities by over instructing them and giving them a rigid regime they must automatically adhere to, after a few games of seeing what their qualities offer, then a bit more instruction on how they can best use those qualities in conjunction with our other players will take place
    "If Everton were playing at the bottom of my garden, i'd close the curtainsĒ

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nineteenx View Post
    He definitely does have a system, it's not a system as people understand systems, where teams have a certain way they play and players that if you stop one or two of, you can stop them playing, it became even more fluid when Hendo was at No6 at the midfield 3 were rotating position and assuming each others position a lot throughout each game. The full backs don't always both bomb on. The system is tweaked for certain sides. One of THE most exciting thing about this team is that we can be brilliant in different ways albeit with familiar patterns (patterns which the players have often mentioned having worked at on the training pitch)

    One of the issues we had in the clear system with Fabinho and his high pressing is the midfield 3 didn't rotate and he played very centrally leaving a hole and teams looked to exploit that hole with players making outside in diagonal runs to be found in it, with the two wide players simultaneously springing to quickly give them a 3 or 4 v 2 or 3 running at our defence.

    They also exploited our right hand side very well because he isn't a true DM No6 and doesn't operate right across the width of the pitch as Hendo does and teams had learned to do both those things very well until Hendo came back in and were able to instantly do it to us again causing us real problems in games in which Hendo was subbed early this season, to the extent Jurgen had to make more subs specifically to stop it. So that is an example of our system as it was and players operating in set rigid areas that opposition sides could set up to exploit, through countering from defending or from pressing high trying to get a win back and counter from that, which unfortunately was very evident on Fabinho's return v Southampton.

    There are certain set things the players have to do, but Jurgen gives them a lot of responsibility for using things they have learned in games and worked on in training and working out how to win games in different ways using them from within the formation and system, that's why watching them is so brilliant, sometimes, if you pay attention to post match interviews, it's very apparent when we've been so much better second half that the players haven't found the solution by themselves and Jurgen has had to remind them of one or two patterns of play they had worked on and developed for such opposition and hadn't tried.

    Maybe you don't recognise it as a system because it's very fluid and there are tactical tweaks to it for nearly every game and we can play differently and win games in different ways in every game, but there absolutely is a system. A good example of a tweak and both full backs pushing very high constantly in that game and the reason for that tweak I could use is the second game against Leicester. Leicester play with one up top, Vardy, given we leave our CB's 2v2 at the back in a lot of games, v Leicester we were very comfortable leaving Virgil and Gomez 2v1 against Vardy at the back and pushing up very high on them to dominate the ball in their half, stop them playing their passing game and press and counter press to quickly win back the ball any time we lost possession.

    Our pressing isn't just a case of everyone trying to close down very quickly, our players do, but it's far more sophisticated than that and requires far greater reading of the game and awareness and understanding of one another to do, which is why I say all 11 of our players are always 'in play' and we're always defending while attacking and attacking while defending. Our players placement, how and where they press and positions they fluidly take off one another in doing so is expert, it isn't an easy thing to do, that's why other teams suck at it when they think they can just stick out a 433 and have their front players try and chase every player down.

    So, a player will move to press a player, they will already be in a very good position to press that player because our players are always defending when attacking, players not involved in the attack will be taking excellent positions to pick up opposition players who could be open to support or launch a counter attack to counter press them and win the ball back quickly, with each of our players not involved in the attack doing this and taking positions off each other and positions between two opposition players so if the opposition get the ball back and their lad beats the first presser, our next lad is straight there and while pressing he is blocking the line for a pass to the player he's moved away from.

    Our players not involved in the attack but closest to it will often take a counter press position I call perfection, as their position is so good it enables them to both quickly counter press and win the ball back if our attack breaks down or become actively involved in the attack, Hendo's position v Wolves to assist Bobby's winner is an excellent example of this

    I could write over 1,000 pages on all the intricacies of our system, it really is so beautifully elaborate and brilliant to watch, so I'll stop there as I'll be here all night, that's just a tiny sample
    Good post, 19x

    I still think the distinction is arguable here. Thereís a difference between describing how the team play and describing a system they follow. Your 1000 page dossier would no doubt make fascinating reading but that isnít the way Klopp has got the team playing. He doesnít say Ďread 19xís booklet and then youíll know how we playí.
    Obviously he emphasises training more than player purchasing - itís not mutually exclusive but itís an emphasis of his. And in training they reinforce pattens of play, cooperation and reactions to scenarios, amongst many other things. There is no doubt he offers guidance and asks for certain things from his players.
    But ultimately the system is designed to allow them to express themselves as if there were no system to fit into. Thatís why itís so fluid. The more fluid it gets, the less need there is for systematic instructions. The team has an objective to win and the method is becoming second nature, not the observance of a set of rules.

    I think all mastery involves the transcendence of the technique. Eventually you arenít following rules anymore but instead you are expressing yourself with freedom.
    Like the golf swing for example. You start with instructions - do this, donít do that. Most players, including many pros, never get beyond this. Many ruin their game by become bogged down with method and forgetting the ultimate aim. Hit the ball.
    The top golfers are able to leave the instructions to muscle memory and set the game free to the will - hit the ball to the target being the only instruction.

    That would be true of any successful team that reaches high levels though. So itís not specific to Klopp. But I think Klopp assumes that mastery is possible and therefore it is not accidental or the icing on the cake. He wants to get his instructions out of his players heads just like the golfer wants to stop thinking swing thoughts. It looks like a different approach to me.

    So when a break is on for example, the players know they have to get forward - itís an instruction on one level - but by now it is essentially spontaneous. They all know they are bombing forward and they also know if they have the ball there will be other players to pass to at all times. The manager could tell them where to position themselves but, by now, they actually know better than him where to head towards because they are intelligent and well trained. They are free.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taksin View Post
    Good post, 19x

    I still think the distinction is arguable here. There’s a difference between describing how the team play and describing a system they follow. Your 1000 page dossier would no doubt make fascinating reading but that isn’t the way Klopp has got the team playing. He doesn’t say ‘read 19x’s booklet and then you’ll know how we play’.
    There is a system and equally the players are to an extent free, Jurgen brings in players he feels will bring new things and evolution to the system and to a great extent but with some guidance and work on patterns of play to overcome certain situations and how to react in certain siutations, makes/lets the players work out a lot of things among themselves to become the system and help evolve it.

    that then goes back to my ideas on bringing in an additional top quality forward and couple of young 20-23 year old top quality midfielders this summer. There is a system and the players become the system, but our current players have become the current system through 3 or more years of playing together, so signings for our long term future 2 or 3 years down the line who can also contribute immediately when Millie will likely be on the coaching staff and Hendo and Gini likely getting more rest and doing the kind of role Millie does now need to come in now to develop and evolve as part of the system learning from the players who currently are the system. You can't just buy someone in off the peg to slot in when a player leaves or retires, you need continuation and that can only be achieved by bringing in the players this summer
    "If Everton were playing at the bottom of my garden, i'd close the curtainsĒ

  5. #55
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    We do have a definite system, a formation, a definite shape in many parts and aspects of our games and patterns of play with a lot of variations to what we do that are situation based. Jurgen will set certain tactics and ways of operating the system for different games and let the players find solutions for winning it using that using patterns of play and different variation of movement and playing styles have have built up and developed through working on during training and in matches. The players help shape it in what they do and are able to do and Jurgen develops certain things and new patterns of play and movement and rotation of positions for certain opposition and types of opposition and different situations through when teams have frustrated us and we've found ways teams have set up and approached playing us more difficult. That's very clear from everything we've seen in the last few years and the system and players evolve.

    Mentality is very key also, our pressing, counter pressing and defending when attacking and attacking when defending takes incredible mentality in terms of focus, awareness, communication and concentration as all 11 players are always 'in play' and that and the players working hard to continually improve, evolve and develop with the guidance of Jurgen and his staff is huge reason for the incredible performance levels we've been seeing

    Edit: It reminds me in a way of the "Now what are you prepared to do" clip from 'The Untouchables' not directly to what Sean Connery is talking about obviously and not relating to dark arts as other people may interpret the comparison, but in terms of teams trying to do certain things to us and us being capable of doing those things to them and be being better at them.

    They want to try and block all our midfield lines - fine we'll play some balls in behind or over midfield and have our forwards get on the end of it or win it and lay it off and start from there and if you win it to clear, we'll be better at winning the second ball and start from there
    Last edited by Nineteenx; 12th February 2020 at 03:52 AM.
    "If Everton were playing at the bottom of my garden, i'd close the curtainsĒ

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedNoodle View Post
    Danny "The D-Head" Mills on TalkCrud saying that we need to strengthen/kick on (apparently like Man U did) and that players like VVD, Firmino etc could look to move elsewhere.

    People like Mills know sweet FA about anything including the game they played for 20 odd years. He also said that Neymar only moved for money, when it is well known that he wanted to get out of Messi's shadow and win the 'Baloon Door'.

    They amount of times I've heard that some of our players could want to go to Madrid/Barca, we've been 'lucky, Klopp has spent lots of money, we 'celebrated' a draw against WBA, Bobby's surname is Firminio etc, etc is asounding...... how any of these 'know nothings' get a job in the media (other than having their tongues up someones backside) I'll never know.

    He also had a pop at us asking if Guardiola or Moyes would do what we did and play an U23 side in the rearranged league game. He really is an A grade ****.
    They're all useless, I think they'd do the game a favour if they ditched the majority of ex players as alleged professional pundits, they mostly talk a right loads of shite, trot out cliches, tell you things in hindsight you could have told them before the season started and there are numerous of them who still follow the 'anyone but Liverpool' line instilled in the UK media through Sky and his various rags over 3 decades by Murdoch.

    They're just as thick as the knobheads who've been voting the country poorer for the last 40 years for the same reason, they don't have any legitimate reason for their ABL attitude, drip feed of that attitude over 3 decades has them illogically thinking that way, it's the same thing, teams were getting shafted by the filthy, Chelsea then City over the last 3 decades, just as the country was getting shafted by the Tories or a wolf in sheeps clothing red Tory who was in that Australian twats pocket, but people had this ABL crap drip fed to them and are too dumb to notice they've been well and truly shafted

    I have a strong dislike of the filthy, not because they became a rival as I grew up not really knowing who they were or perceiving them as a rival, because they never challenged for anything, I disliked them intensely because they got a lot of unwarranted hype that the football they purveyed, even at their best simply didn't warrant. It wasn't ever football becoming the Champions of the English League's top division for me and neither was Chelsea's, Arsenal's was for me under Wenger, City's of the last two season, but the means it was arrived at weren't acceptable and they've been caught up and surpassed now, money can't buy you everything, it can't buy them a Champions League trophy
    "If Everton were playing at the bottom of my garden, i'd close the curtainsĒ

  7. #57
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    Similar to is in the 90s through to now I suppose

  8. #58
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    I don't get the Coutinho thing and why anyone would want him back, he'd create a vulnerability playing at LCM No8 and Fabian Ruiz would offer everything Coutinho could and a lot more without the vulnerability and would be a evolutionary signing for us whereas Coutinho would be a step backwards in my view, each to their own I guess - Coutinho shafted himself and should serve as a cautionary tale to all players who think a mega money move to either Spanish giant is the ultimate achievement for a player, times are changing as they always do in football, we've become a much better team without him, moving forward and evolving further we should surely be looking for a younger player who can play at LCM No8 primarily and other positions to the same level who offers us that greater creativity and goal threat from that position without sacrificing our defensive and pressing ability in it
    "If Everton were playing at the bottom of my garden, i'd close the curtainsĒ

  9. #59
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    You may well be right about our vulnerability with Coutinho 19 but for me it is always missed that we are judged with him in our ranks while also having a comedy back line Pre VVD -EDIT: pre Robertson ( = Moreno ) and with a very vulnerable Mignolet in goal. 3 huge changes on Philís departure...

    I would love to see Phil in this side - I believe he would be a devastating threat.

    Would I have him back though - now...? Really not sure..

    Wonít happen in all likelihood - think Klopp is wisely using it as a red flag for others..
    Last edited by Steveo; 12th February 2020 at 08:50 AM.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nineteenx View Post
    I don't know who started the thread on Jurgen, that's why I didn't name them, you weren't here in the 'dark days' of this forum, Red4life must have chilled out an awful lot in his old age, back in 2008-2012 he would regularly follow me and others if I recall correctly, who disagreed with him or had changed their mind on a subject or a player around pretty much every thread they posted on, positing off topic and quoting things they'd posted 4 or 5 years ago, you weren't allowed to say "Yes I did say that, but this or that has happened since then and I've changed my opinion as people do" oh no, none of that, "NO IN 2008 YOU POSTED THIS! ! !" the forum was rife with such behaviour and really very toxic then which is why so many left or took a leave of absence

    Bit like Taskin popping up with "In 2009 you said THIS! ! !" all very unsavoury and unecessary and childish if you ask me
    Pretty sure I started that thread back then and unlike the who hates Klopp thread the replies were mostly sincere and the support hadn't waned. There might have been 1 or 2 comedic replies/poll options, eg get Moyes in now with 1 taker.

    Cant really say tbh, he did try to ban me for quoting him and replying to a post of his, wanting both off the record. But made an offer to meet up sometime.

    Might be a bit annoying, but mostly just a bit of banter. It's the price of your legacy 19 - at least you got that cool YouTube benzema video.

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