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Thread: Summer transfer thread

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taksin View Post
    Good post, 19x

    I still think the distinction is arguable here. Thereís a difference between describing how the team play and describing a system they follow. Your 1000 page dossier would no doubt make fascinating reading but that isnít the way Klopp has got the team playing. He doesnít say Ďread 19xís booklet and then youíll know how we playí.
    Obviously he emphasises training more than player purchasing - itís not mutually exclusive but itís an emphasis of his. And in training they reinforce pattens of play, cooperation and reactions to scenarios, amongst many other things. There is no doubt he offers guidance and asks for certain things from his players.
    But ultimately the system is designed to allow them to express themselves as if there were no system to fit into. Thatís why itís so fluid. The more fluid it gets, the less need there is for systematic instructions. The team has an objective to win and the method is becoming second nature, not the observance of a set of rules.

    I think all mastery involves the transcendence of the technique. Eventually you arenít following rules anymore but instead you are expressing yourself with freedom.
    Like the golf swing for example. You start with instructions - do this, donít do that. Most players, including many pros, never get beyond this. Many ruin their game by become bogged down with method and forgetting the ultimate aim. Hit the ball.
    The top golfers are able to leave the instructions to muscle memory and set the game free to the will - hit the ball to the target being the only instruction.

    That would be true of any successful team that reaches high levels though. So itís not specific to Klopp. But I think Klopp assumes that mastery is possible and therefore it is not accidental or the icing on the cake. He wants to get his instructions out of his players heads just like the golfer wants to stop thinking swing thoughts. It looks like a different approach to me.

    So when a break is on for example, the players know they have to get forward - itís an instruction on one level - but by now it is essentially spontaneous. They all know they are bombing forward and they also know if they have the ball there will be other players to pass to at all times. The manager could tell them where to position themselves but, by now, they actually know better than him where to head towards because they are intelligent and well trained. They are free.
    Nice post.

    When learning skills you're consciously attempting to achieve a goal, mastering a skill means it becomes automatic/unconscious.
    Poor technique can become automatic too though and in a few sports this can be body/head position, leaning back when taking a shot a good example, you always want your head to be leaning forward in a positive rather than leaning back as it destabilises.
    You can succeed with a goofy body position but you're less likely to when the technique is poor. Rather than transcending technique I'd suggest its transcending consciousness.

    With team play you aim for this same mastery, but theres a requirement to adapt to the scenarios on the field.
    Klopps half-time talks and rejigging though is proof that they cannot always find the solutions on the pitch, particularly tactical ones regarding spaces on the pitch too.
    Think he credited them with this on one of our corners last year that Gini scored from towards the end of the season.
    Seen a few bits where they say he has his video analysts present clips to them at halftime to highlight his points of correction clearly.
    In the game v manu where rashford scored twice iirc he was livid with Can & maybe Lovren for those goals and their duties.

    Defending by its nature is more systematic and attacking has more freedom. A good structure enables teams and when its automatic the team can excel.

    Our fullbacks play a big part in our success. Think we've also mastered a lower block than before ourselves and we seem to be able to manage games better and reserve energy better too. Our recruitment has assisted us alot in this regard.

    Been great viewing

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steveo View Post
    You may well be right about our vulnerability with Coutinho 19 but for me it is always missed that we are judged with him in our ranks while also having a comedy back line Pre VVD -EDIT: pre Robertson ( = Moreno ) and with a very vulnerable Mignolet in goal. 3 huge changes on Phil’s departure...

    I would love to see Phil in this side - I believe he would be a devastating threat.

    Would I have him back though - now...? Really not sure..

    Won’t happen in all likelihood - think Klopp is wisely using it as a red flag for others..
    I wouldn't have him back.

    If you look at our season stats in 17/18 with and without Coutinho ul to the point he left we fared better when he was out of the team than when he was in it !! Posted about it at the time.

    With him we had some very high scoring games. But without him we had a better win ratio and goal difference.

    We fared best with him to that point in the season when he played lwf.
    Mane's form goals/assists wasnt too hot, from Phil's bad back to Phils move away. Which I've put down to him being disturbed by Coutinhos Barca amibition/Anfield-treachery.

    Coutinho at lcm while very nice on the eye and a bit KDB like was a team weakness. Left too big a hole at times and lacked the bite and discipline for cm imo.

    Klopps said iirc that as a team we became less predictable as too often it was give the ball to Phil and we became more easily neutralised.

    When Klopp signed with us he said he's not interested in signing players he's worked with before ie Dortmund players at that time.

    He wants to sign players he can improve and hes improved players hes worked with before.
    Would reckon theres no chance of us signing him as Phil is the red flag/example to be made.

    No point in risking Mane's form either. People have said before that Mane says positives about Phil but imo you can be positive about someone consciously whilst below that surface level there's issues that unsettle a player.

    The idea was that Naby would provide more steel in midfield and do a similar job in attack, sadly a spate of injuries have robbed us of that reality.

    Naby will/would allow us to play 433. With Phil in a fab 4 we needed to switch to a 4222/4231 system.
    Presently there are better attacking options out there who can play across the front 3, or in a 4231 system that would imo produce a more potent attack.
    Last edited by CCTV; 12th February 2020 at 10:27 AM.

  3. #63
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    If what you say is true then Klopp was happy to go against the stats when repeatedly picking Phil.. I think the stats are also marginal at best.

    I donít think itís a fair comparison either.

    What do teams most often do when they go down to 10 men..? Sacrifice the most creative option in favour of defence.

    Phil in a team with a shambles of a back line is always going to be a bit of a liability - a kind of - we need to score 4 or 5 to win a game scenario.. Anyone remember that?

    The point for me is - how would the team fair now - with such a strong back line - with the added option of Phil. Be interesting to see. We might well be more vulnerable at the back but we might also be far more potent in attack.. it would be very interesting to see.

    Obviously it is all guess work - but I would put my mortgage on Klopp wanting to see too. He rated Phil far higher than many on this Forum.

    Still - doesnít mean I would pay top wedge to bring him back... Usually backfires that one
    Last edited by Steveo; 12th February 2020 at 10:47 AM.

  4. #64
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    There's no chance Klopp would have Coutinho back.

    Transfer request handed in day before season starts, rejected....bad back in pre season which miraculously healed once the window shut. Then played some of his best football until December then once again demanded to go to Barca.

    Once he was sold, Klopp was quoted as saying 'we couldn't have even used Coutinho if we'd have stopped him'.

    That suggests to me there was a complete melt down of trust between player and manager at that point.

    I honestly wouldn't have him back for £30m.
    "I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass.........and I'm all out of bubblegum."

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steveo View Post
    If what you say is true then Klopp was happy to go against the stats when repeatedly picking Phil.. I think the stats are also marginal at best.

    I don’t think it’s a fair comparison either.

    What do teams most often do when they go down to 10 men..? Sacrifice the most creative option in favour of defence.

    Phil in a team with a shambles of a back line is always going to be a bit of a liability - a kind of - we need to score 4 or 5 to win a game scenario.. Anyone remember that?

    The point for me is - how would the team fair now - with such a strong back line - with the added option of Phil. Be interesting to see. We might well be more vulnerable at the back but we might also be far more potent in attack.. it would be very interesting to see.

    Obviously it is all guess work - but I would put my mortgage on Klopp wanting to see too. He rated Phil far higher than many on this Forum.

    Still - doesn’t mean I would pay top wedge to bring him back... Usually backfires that one
    Forum record doesnt go back that far. So had a quick look, was wrong on recall about the goal difference.

    Games considered cl qualifiers 2, cl groupstages 6, pl first 22 games up to Burnley january 1st.
    Our 2-2 draw v Sevilla and 1-1 draw v everton count as without Coutinho imo as he came off the bench and played 14 & 12 mins - no goals scored or conceded. Otherwise he started and played most of the game only subbed off second half.

    With Coutinho
    Played 17 - 32/51 points say 60% of the points
    Won 8
    Drew 8
    Lost 1
    1.88 ppg

    Without Coutinho
    Played 13 - 29/39 points say 75% ofthe points
    Won 9
    Drew 2
    Lost 1
    2.23ppg

    4 extra games with Phil and we won 1 more game without him.

    Phil featured in 5 of our bigger wins: 2 7-0's in the cl, in pl a 5-1, 5-0 and a 4-0.

    On our day he was able to inject quality no doubt. But he played in a lot of draws too.

    If Klopp had him hed be a great option at lwf, not as good as Mane defensively, few are.
    Otherwise best set in a 42X setup, on the left imo.

    Given his age hes not a good target even at a reduced fee imo and we'd be better off with a 9 who can play on either wing. Like Mbappe

    He'd have been a great option when Salah went off injured v Real in the CL final. Phil left bobby centre and Mane right.

    With/without stats aren't perfect by any means in settling arguments.
    Last edited by CCTV; 12th February 2020 at 02:04 PM.

  6. #66
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    Sorry mate but I donít believe these stats at all

    13 games vs 17 means means they are miles out and are these games with the same back line - same set up? Nope

    They donít give nearly enough insight - not for me at least. And once again - When fit Klopp picked him time and time again.

  7. #67
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    Coutinho can do one I dont want him back for a few reasons.

    The first being he put in a transfer request ONE day before our season started at Watford and then created a false back injury which cleared up as soon as the window closed.

    Second is he a broken man he is a bench warmer at Barcelona/Bayern now and his next stop will probably be PSG after they sell Mbappe and he will shine for them and get paid his £250k a week.

    He disrespected our club and that should not be forgotten.

  8. #68
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    A decent player at times, but we've moved on from him now. Won the CL last season, and the title will be added to that in 3 months time so it's not like we've struggled since he decided he didn't want to play for us any more. I'm not bothered about anyone who thinks they are too good for us and engineer a move. His career is at the crossroads now, the word karma springs to mind.
    There are only 2 teams in Liverpool. Liverpool and Liverpool Reserves. (Bill Shankly)

  9. #69
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    Yep I can totally see where you (toneata & LEGS also) guys are coming from and in many ways I agree.

    Much as I think he would be an incredible option to have at our disposal - the net result of his sale had a profound effect on addressing the glaring deficiencies we had at the time. I don't expect these potential 'Coutinho back to Anfield' stories to stop though - not until he is sold by Barca.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steveo View Post
    Sorry mate but I donít believe these stats at all

    13 games vs 17 means means they are miles out and are these games with the same back line - same set up? Nope

    They donít give nearly enough insight - not for me at least. And once again - When fit Klopp picked him time and time again.
    That's fair enough, I wont rob you of your belief - we all have our own.
    Alisson enjoys a huge win ratio in the pl with 1 loss since his arrival in the pl. Obviously Alisson plays a huge part but it's on top of others improvements too.

    What do you mean miles out ? 13 v 17 is close enough if a small sample and there is 1 more win in the 13 than the 17 with Coutinho.

    They're against different opponents etc. Have you looked into your own questions on the details or just dismissing them with objections ?

    Just having a quick look, selecting a few games and it would seem the with Coutinho games had more Robertson over Moreno as his injury occured later into the season. Klopp picked Moreno when fit that season too (bit of a jokey rebuttal)
    Our centre backs, mostly Lovren & Matip, with Klavan back up playing well at that time. Reasonably close CB pairings around that time imo.
    Right back seems to be Gomez and Trent mostly.

    Formations a quick look and as usual 433 & 42X systems which arent miles apart.
    Found one back 3 in the pl where with Coutinho we got a 5-1 win over Brighton - Gini & Can playing in the back 3, Robbo & Trent the wing backs. And pretty sure on memory at least one of the 7-0 cl wins was in 4222.
    In short and at a guess your objections to the stats seem to actually favour Coutinho, but it's how you/I view things.

    Coutinho is a talented footballer. But he is lightweight, weak defensively though he'd press well. He gave us some wonderful goals etc.

    He would've done well to stick by Klopp, but he didn't.
    For me VVD arriving was much more important at that time and I didnt expect much of a drop off at the other end of the pitch. Think a few were aghast we didnt replace him then, which was fair enough as we have been heavily dependent on our front 3 since.
    Imo outside of the CL final he has been missed most in our ability to rotate the front 3 which imo has seen us adapt our pressing intensity up top.

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