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Thread: Black Lives Matter

  1. #41
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Quote Originally Posted by murii View Post
    It's not one officer though, is it? It's systemic. Even with George Floyd's case, three officers stood by or assisted with the murder.

    How so? The troubles facing African Americans are multifaceted and so diverse, and the causes so varied. However, one of them is police brutality. Black Lives Matter was formed because of the increase in incidents where simple interactions between cops and African Americans would end up with the black guy dead. It's simple, a number (big enough to cause alarm) of cops in the US do not value African American lives. It would seem the society didn't as well because they stood by and watched numerous cops kill unarmed African Americans, get paid leave, before going back to work.
    Of the troubles facing African Americans, those caused by white people can only be resolved by white people. One of them is police brutality. But it's encouraging to see people from all races and walks of life get together for the cause.
    I think practically all americans agree the police acted wrongly and cruelly in this instance, Im including black americans who have defended police in other cases. The differnce of opinion is probably around the degree of outrage and what they see as justice.
    Some want all 4 charged with 1st degree murder, others would only charge Chauvin with 1st degree murder and others would want the right charges to be brought so as to secure convictions.
    Another issue is the rioting and looting and even police reactions in the aftermath. Most americans do not support rioting and looting.
    A club owner employed both men and its quite possible as such that they knew each other, their overlap was just over a year iirc and one was front of house and the other inside. This could be a case where personal grievances led to that action rather than racial hatred. It would seem odd that the doorman would not know the security inside the premises. There are claims Chauvin had issues with blacks.

    If i was to surmise your argument...
    police disproprotionately kill blacks over other races as there is, or proving, systemic racism.
    Perhaps owing to the legacy of slavery.
    White people need to do more to sort it out.

    If you look at the data (not complete or without fault) you can see that blacks are more likely to be killed by cops.
    Heres a link to a graph looking at the lifetime risk of being killed by the police by race and sex. Looking at MEN first
    Blacks well ahead of the average for all races, American Indian next and Latinx barely above the total average, Whites about 75% of the average and asians/pacific islanders about 25% of the average lifetime risk. Asians/PI and blacks are furthest from the average than all other 3 categories.
    Now the first thing that strikes me about this graph is that blacks men are way out on their own, whites are less likely than the total average risk and Asians/pacific islanders are in the least likely category.
    The likelihood of men being killed is evidently far greater than women compared with the racial disparity.

    So if i were to formulate conclusions as you have ventured (assuming my summary of your post was fair)
    The greatest issue is #menslivesmatter - the police owing from a legacy of discrimination against men and man hating, are killing far more men than women.
    If you look at prisons men v women , men again far greater probability of being jailed.

    If the police as you claim are systemically racist against blacks because they kill more blacks than other races. If the lifetime risk of being killed is least likely for asians/pacific islanders. Could we suggest that the police are in fact systemically asian/PI supremacists. Whites are more likely to be killed than them after all.
    It would seem the asians/pi are their favourite demographic. Asians/Pi are 3 times less likely say than whites to be killed by the police.

    Asians getting better sat scores at the highest levels, earning more money on average and least likely to be killed by police seems at odds with the ideas of systemic white racism or supremacy.

    Now why do the horribly sexist police end up killing more men than women (at far greater rates than on race) . Could it be explained by any other issue than systemic sexism.

    Could it be that men who on average are only a little bit more aggressive than women and obviously present a greater typical risk owing to physical size and testosterone, are also overwhelmingly the majority of the most violent people (a minority themselves of the total population) and as such they therefore end up in jail at far higher rates and being shot/killed similarly, because they are more violent and greater dangers/threats.

    I think you reach a point where via the argument presented, you should accept that american police are in fact far more sexist against men than they are racist against blacks. By a massive measure too.
    Or you allow that the far greater disparity between sexes over races is down to something other than systemic sexism against men.

    I think it is more reasonable to suggest there are valid reasons/realities as to why cops kill less women than men, than systemic sexism and man hating.
    Dont get me wrong women can be nasty, teengae bullying girl on girl more vicious than boy on boy and in domestic violence they are the offender around 25% of the time.

    So is there any data which points to black americans being more violent/agressive than other races.
    An analysis of crime statistics show when it comes to violent crimes, blacks are overwhlemingly represented in the stats much like the police killings by race.

    In terms of being murdered if you are black or white you are highly likely to be killed by your own race. Blacks more likely to be killed by blacks than whites by whites. Meaning if you are white you run a greater risk of being killed by a differnet race than if you are black.

    So perhaps commiting more serious/violent crimes than other races, its not that surprising that more are killed by police, sadly.
    Now unlawful killings of people including blacks occur too. But most people shot by police are armed.

    You can say its racist for people to be more scared of blacks because they are commiting more violent crimes in the usa. You can also say its sexist for people to be more scared of men than women. You can say its ageist that people tend not to be intimadated by 7 year olds and 70+ year olds.
    But in reality all the discriminations are useful for survival. If my mum comes at me brandishing a screwdriver and looks pissed off, well i wont react in the same way as a stranger man in his late teens early 20s coming at me with a screwdriver. With a 4 year old girl she can stab away, id just stop my mum (she hasnt tried yet) and against a random male stranger its fight/flight/survival.
    The morally virtuous and fair person sees the viking ship approaching and doesnt run like the bigots in their community for shelter.
    If you or any other forum member knocked my tv over whilst drunk id react differently than if your kid knocked it over jumping around.

    The black demographic has been in social decline.
    Absent fathers aka male abortion. Risen drastically over the decades. Its risen in the white community too but way less still.

    Psychoanalysts have written about it and the impacts, marilyn monroe a good case study and well documented.
    Statistically (away from the 2nd wave philosophers analysis) its shown that children without fathers have worse outcomes than children with fathers. Poorer development, adult poverty and in prison. Violence, crime and drugs.....

    So rather than outsourcing responsibility to white people, id suggest the black american community has a fair bit to do itself.
    Is it the legacy of racism and slavery thats causing this increase in the black community and more generally.
    Or is it the change in culture in recent decades.

    I know abortion is a tricky issue and hotly divisive, but in my limited experince most women i know who've chosen abortion have done so under duress from a declared absent father. No money, no contact, no support.
    The right to choose becomes the pressure to abort or go alone.
    Why should a man be weighed down with fathering a clump of cells, shed kill it if she wanted to and hed have no say. Its entrapment. Why is she being so selfish, its not a real person.
    The only loss of rights after ww2 that id deem significant is the right to life of the unborn. Privacy is dead but hey ho.

    Id support the 3 hard cases, rape/incest, ffa and direct risk to life of the mother.
    Thereafter aborting a baby under choice to me is equal to abandoning your own duties as a father. For some both are acceptable.
    I think its fair to say how MLK would view it and going off Malcolm X i think its fair to say hed agree with MLK.

    Positive racism: Sowell tackles this issue and cites sat scores (iq) differnces between asians, whites and blacks at MIT.... asians have highest scores then whites then blacks, the differnces between asians and blacks in these courses are significant.
    Asians who would qualify on merit are discriminated against on the basis of their skin colour/race. So as to accomodate black students who would not qualify on merit under the flag of social justice.
    This is deemed positive discrimination or positive racism.
    Those really smart black kids typically will struggle to keep up with the pace and as per sowell would be far better served getting places on merit in less prestigious colleges. Of course the single best student could be a black kid, though more likely an asian.

    So given the sucess of asians id go to the asian community and see what are the differnces that are producing this disparity of outcomes.
    There can be innate differences, but as per sowells analysis, Asian families are stricter saying no, demand more respect for others and themselves and push their kids to succeed. They are firmer in parenting and this benefits the child. These dont seen beyond any other race.
    Maybe rather than America suffering from some covert systemic asian racism/supremacy, they are merley the most succesful culture and community presently.

    So Murii, my mortal enemy in the pl predictions thread. I hope you take this post in good faith, if it reads harshly remember its just my counter argument and in life discussions can be difficult. Like you say there are many variables at play. I only brought up abortion as it relates to absent fathers aka male abortion and the role that plays. I gather many will disagree.
    Im open to correction and further discussion.

  2. #42
    There's a difference between black men killed by the police and black men killed by the police while in custody.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    You make some very interesting points CC to be fair.

    There is no doubt at all that in African American communities ( unfair label IMO as the majority are of African ancestry BUT crucially the decedents of former slave colonies) there is huge work to be done.

    Often absent fathers and a near total reliance on mothers to do it all ( impossible ) alone is naturally a huge barrier to success. This is absolutely a HUGE reason for many of the biggest problems. But Obama and his ilk ( bmip )are part of the problem ... Again - as West has cited - black people in power have been utterly ineffectual. Playing the game with full on Uncle Tom syndrome.

    Also - Positive discrimination ( how can that EVER be a ‘positive’ for anyone.? ) was always a political tool and total BS. It has also likely increased what West cites as the “nihilism” felt across African American communities.

    That sense of utter worthlessness however is increased ten fold when Police brutality with impunity is on show day after day after day. It is compounded and proven.

    The problems that black communities in both Britain and the US face are not going to be solved by an end to what is clearly - disproportionate Police brutality - nobody is suggesting such... But it is time for it to stop...We as human bearings cannot accept this anymore...

  4. #44
    African-American is indeed an unfair term. They don't describe whites as European-American. One day, when racism finally ends they'll just be Americans.

    Is oscar winning actor, Rami Malek, born in LA to Egyptian immigrant parents, considered African-American?! hmmm...

  5. #45
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Quote Originally Posted by stevie harkness View Post
    African-American is indeed an unfair term. They don't describe whites as European-American. One day, when racism finally ends they'll just be Americans.

    Is oscar winning actor, Rami Malek, born in LA to Egyptian immigrant parents, considered African-American?! hmmm...
    I get what you mean when you say its an unfair term. In some way it can be seen as that, like its separating in some form but it can also and is probably used to celebrate and be proud of their ancestry and roots.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Quote Originally Posted by teesred View Post
    I get what you mean when you say its an unfair term. In some way it can be seen as that, like its separating in some form but it can also and is probably used to celebrate and be proud of their ancestry and roots.
    Agree tees.

    But would suggest the term is unfair when used in the context of US social issues... Black Americans are naturally described as African American.. no issue at all - but when the stats are pulled out on social disorder - high rates of crime etc, it becomes a bit of a problem, and that is IMO because of the legacy of slavery. This cannot be discounted. I am suggesting that Africa ( African) is getting a bum deal out of the terminology in this context.
    Last edited by Steveo; 4th June 2020 at 12:46 PM.

  7. #47
    Could it be the case that the USA does not want to properly acknowledge the guilt owed due to slavery (and the native Indians) for fear of massive compensation claims, land rights and the like

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    FAO Steveo and CCTV - ever listened to American, Black Conservative Thomas Sowell?

    Whatever anyone's thoughts were/are on the lens through which he views the World, he has always been very consistent and eloquent in regards to his viewpoints.
    Your hobbies are rollerblading and you're also a bit of a rat-hound? Steel Wool
    Sid knows he's crazy and he likes it. Balinkay

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Athens, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by teesred View Post
    How does it begin to change though? How can something that's pretty much part of a society be changed? The problem obviously gets bigger the further south you go in the U.S.
    I have only lived in the US for 5 years so I can't pretend to grasp the full extent of the problem. I'm still educating myself about the challenges that African Americans face, even though I'm African myself. But it's pretty bad. I don't think there's a silver bullet for this, especially since it's easy, even convenient (perhaps even right?) to conflate so many social and racial issues into one. In my opinion, if a problem is race-based then, naturally, it needs people from all races and walks of life to come together and put considerable effort in effecting change. Some of that requires self-reflection, listening, and patience. People have to listen to each other and drop all prejudices. Then come up with objectively fair solutions.

    I do not see an easy way to get to the point where people are willing to come together because on the one hand, you have corporations who hold lots of the wealth in society and right-wing nutjobs emboldened by a racist president, while on the other hand, you have the minorities who for a myriad of reasons, are bearing the brunt of the inequality. In the middle, you have the white middle class who aren't really affected by any of this, so why should they act? That right there is the problem. (Mind you, I'm sorry if it appears like I'm using a broad brush to paint groups of people, I mean the majority, I hope you get the sentiment). The recent protests are about police brutality, but some people are derailing the conversation, perhaps because they can easily see themselves in the shoes of the cops kneeling on George Floyd, or even in the shoes of the business owners. But never in a million years do they imagine getting choked to death in public because of their skin colour. Even the video of a man slowly getting choked to death isn't enough to get through to some people. The incidence is added to the statistics of unarmed black men killed by police, and relegated to the footnote of a 6 paragraph essay detailing how it's actually his fault that he got publicly murdered.

    How do you change beliefs that have been there for centuries? If this cant be addressed in this day and age its probably never going to be and that is a sad thing to say. 5 decades after Martin Luthor king and Malcolm X were assassinated and not much has changed for black people in the States aside from segregation being outlawed.
    The U.S has some deep rooted problems, some of which are mentioned on the videos that Steveo posted. Their obsession with material things,image,money etc. This is something that's spread across all of western society. I see it in the way my children talk about things, the things they're interested in and as a parent it's very difficult to say No to things that all other children have/do. The whole social media culture has had nothing but a negative effect on how we live in my opinion. We could lose it all tomorrow and we wouldn't have actually lost a single thing.
    It's going to be addressed, one way or the other. I just hope that it isn't left to fester for too long because that's just a recipe for disater further down the line.
    You're right about the obsession with material things, image and social media etc. I haven't got kids yet but I imagine it must be tough bringing up kids in the current times.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Athens, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by Taksin View Post
    Here's the alternate view, for anyone interested.
    Hey Taskin. It's the alternate view to what? To BLM? To people protesting police brutality and killing of unarmed African Americans? I'm genuinely curious because this is kind of ambiguous.

    Although the manner of this controversial death - the nasty choking - does require special attention, the protests are not concerned with that for the most part.
    In your opinion, how much attention do you think it requires? Does it require any action?
    Even though you might not know it (or pretend not to know it) you're actually right. Though triggered by the murder of George Floyd by 4 white police officers, the protests are about so much more. They are about Emmet Till, Rodney King, Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor and an uncomfortable number of African-Americans who die at the hands of policemen charged with protecting them (or vigilantes) who then, are most likely, go scot free. It's about the undocumented and unreported cases. Its about making sure that action is taken to make sure that it doesn't happen again.

    It's worth mentioning that there was a white cop, Cody Holte, killed by a black guy this week, a white man, strangely, strangled in a similar way by a police officer, not to mention a white girl facing multiple attempted murder charges for throwing a molitov cocktail into a police car with four officers inside it during the protests. How many of them were black I don't know. Not much mention of these events.
    I'm not sure how to respond to this: you wrote a complete paragraph without actually making a point. All it does is detract away from the issue at hand. Someone might read between the lines and assume that since a white guy was strangled by cops, the BLM and those outraged by the murder of George Floyd should shut up?

    Perhaps you felt it necessary to bring this all up because you felt like people are sympathizing too much with the protestors and not looking at what the police are going through?

    EDIT: The guy who killed the cop will go to trial and get charged for murder. The girl who threw a molotov cocktail will get charged for murder. Yet, countless police officers kill unarmed and objectively unthreatening African Americans and all they get is paid leave before going back to work. That's the difference. Btw, this usually occurs when it's caught on video.

    My own opinion is that the attention this gets in this country is odd. We have our own house to look after. And if we are so concerned with police brutality or racism, why isn't everyone out protesting the Chinese all day long (for starters). Has no-one seen how they treat their own citizens, including those of other ethnic groups like the Uyghurs and Tibetans? I speak as someone who was arrested in 2008 for overzealous protesting against the Chinese Olympic torch parade on grounds of the systematic abuse of the people of Tibet.

    I beg to disagree, people have a right to be enraged by events they find disgusting and cruel. Just like you chose a noble cause and protested against the treatment of Uyghurs and Tibetans, I think you should let them choose what to stand for.

    Finally, did you post that video because you agree with it, or because you think it offers an "alternate view"? The first words out of his mouth regarding statistics were: "there were 965 incidences where people were killed by cops last year, 4% of whom were unarmed black people killed by white cops....". That's 38 too many. You probably glossed over this detail because you think they deserved it, or because it couldn't be you. Or you actually caught it and didn't think it was relevant. That's what BLM is all about. It actually matters that these unarmed people were killed.
    Last edited by murii; 4th June 2020 at 07:38 PM.



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