Most influential player

[Steveo]

Like I said.. many seem to ignore it but since we stopped the nonsense of playing midfielders at CB last season - how many games and how many wins have there been with Thiago?

It looks pretty darned good to me.

EDIT:

38 games in total and 32 wins! 32 from 38..!!
and 12 of those games without any senior CB's and no captain!

This season, it's 26 games and 23 wins!

I know that stats are really only a very loose guide especially when it's only on team results or even assists but there is something clearly indicating that we do very well when he plays. We can also do very well when he doesn't play as we well know BUT we seem to do less well far more often without him.

[Taksin]

Yes this argument you two are having is one that I don't feel I can take part in. In a complex system, there are so many reasons why we lose to Watford or Leicester. This is really more of an example of my difference with 19x

When I try and weigh things up I am more inclined to instinct and intuition about what is and isn't working. That said, watch the highlights against Benfica and just look at those TAA balls, they are the most glamorous feature of our play (in the highlights)

Its very interesting to me that 19x's way of looking at football leads him to rate Hendo so highly (as highly as I believe I rate him), when there seem to be plenty of rumbles and groans about him from fans. So much of what he does is oriented to making everyone else work properly. That in itself is a strange phenomenon - that for the team to play well, one player in the middle fo the park has to be shaping things for everyone else.

But I think the patterns that interest 19x (and not me) are probably all there in the mix too - I'm just not looking for them in the same way

[Nineteenx]

But I think the patterns that interest 19x (and not me) are probably all there in the mix too - I'm just not looking for them in the same way

Each to their own, at least unlike too many of our fans, you recognise those patterns are there, Steveo just makes things up, this whole Thiago business, he's just embarrassing himself and our fans as the alleged most knowledgable in the game in my opinion, there just isn't any credible evidence to support what he's trying to assert and he isn't providing any

The best I can say about Thiago is that in the last 5 or 6 games of last season, somebody had a word in his ear and told him to use his passing ability more directly and he started playing more of the medium to long quality balls we were desperately missing in Hendo's absence - He played almost all his games in a midfield 3 with Gini and Fab, both of whom were the integral midfielders to those results, with a deeper more forgiving line and Fab sitting deeper in front of the 2 CBs to give them more protection

To even bring Thiago into the debate on a thread like this is absolutely preposterous bordering on lunacy

[Nineteenx]

I think the patterns that interest 19x (and not me) are probably all there in the mix too - I'm just not looking for them in the same way

I'd rephrase that to "I just don't recognise their importance in the same way" anyway, not hijacking this thread with it, I just find it so incredibly frustrating, you obviously appreciate my head is wired to have incredibly strong recognition of patterns, we play very differently and the patterns and movement are very different with Hendo at No6, because of Hendo's relationships with Trent and Mo, they're also very different when he plays at No8, much better different in both cases, most people, who try and argue the toss about it, don't even see or recognise the patterns and the difference in them

I've eased up on Fab, because we can't rely on Keita and Thiago to be fit like Gini always was, to we can't base how we want to play on our best possible midfield of Keita Hendo Thiago, the other options just aren't anywhere near good enough for a team with our aspirations, so unfortunately, with the midfielders we have at our disposal this season, even though it means the team can't function at its very highest levels, going with Fab at No6 is something we have to live with until the summer

The saddest thing about last season is we never ever got to see the best possible midfield we have had at our disposal since Jurgen arrived at the club Gini Hendo Thiago play a single game together, let alone a run of games, I'm still absolutely gutted about that

[Taksin]

I sympathise with Steveo in that I rate Thiago highly. And its not because I think he fulfils the structural demands that you are claiming he doesn't. It's because I think those patterns are only a part of the story. When I look at him, I can see what he is producing, even if he is making mistakes or the team as a whole isn't playing well. That's why the stats about win percentages with or without are not convincing - there's a possibility they are completely random. We won the European Cup with Djimi Traore at left back ffs.

For example, we could imagine Thiago playing much better next to Henderson, for the sake of argument. So, when Hendo isn't there, he is under pressure that he could do without. That kind of thing. Anyway, I think he is starting to grow into it and looking like a key player. His awareness is great, his passing is excellent. The better the team plays, the more valuable that will be.

Mané played a perfect back heel to Salah the other night and Salah just hesitated for a micro second, ruining the chance. One player's brilliance is dependent on the total commitment of everyone around him. Those are the fine margins.

[Nineteenx]

Were opening a can of worms here, there's a great deal to discuss that isn't really for this thread

[redebreck]

Were opening a can of worms here, there's a great deal to discuss that isn't really for this thread

Oh yes it is...

[Nineteenx]

Oh yes it is...

No no no, I will leave it for people to use their own eyes and try to be honest about it with this appropriately titled 'Passing that makes goals youtube' I looked for one for Thiago in the red of Liverpool, but, there wasn't one

I have to ask the question again about who puts these 'big chances created' stats together, there's another Hendo youtube like this in which there are 15-25 massive chances put on a plate that Mane, Mo, or Bobby somehow contrive to fuck up that they appear to have missed from Hendo's big chances created stats, which didn't go up after the Watford game either, despite him putting 2 on a plate for Jota



I eagerly anticipate the Thiago for Liverpool equivalent response from Steveo so he can demonstrate how integral Thiago's passing is to our winning games and how he releases our forwards and full backs to score or assist and assists directly himself and is such a creative force, with passing that actually delivers and results in something

Edit: And I'm certain even the most ardent fabinho is the best thing since sliced bread types will have to concede just how restricted and limited in his passing Fab actually is compared to the vastly superior alternative at No6 and why that is an issue in some game with how teams set up to let him have it

[Taksin]

I looked for one for Thiago in the red of Liverpool, but, there wasn't one

I can think of five or six off the top of my head.. I think someone could put together a good video at the end of the season

[scientificred]

You can watch highlights and copious YouTube videos but you will never get the sense of mood or spacial recognition of what is actually happening on the pitch in the then and now and what might be coming. That is down to the players and manager. Things are different on ground level.