Thiago - the future

[Steveo]

Pretty much everything on your list is he result of our returning to our way of playing prior to when the overplaying began, Jurgen playing to all our players strengths again

I've documented pretty much everything we lose by overplaying, trying to operate with a designated playmaker, having no runs in behind, having no width on our left and no forward supporting Robbo

Not doing it all again, but just for one out of a plethora of things trying to revert back to how we played 18-20 pre Jota and removing the width on our left and pre Thiago and trying to use a designated playmaker and overplaying has changed positively and everything that goes with it, Virgil playing his medium to longer passes again rather than the ball being constantly demanded off him short obviously really helps

We need mo and LFWD pushed up and making their runs in behind for this and the full backs supporting runs they had stopped making nearly as many of them through the overplaying and service not being provided

It stops us being easily pressed

It improves our pressing and counter pressing and winning of second balls hugely.

Yet we see something at odds with this assessment just days ago.

And as for this part in bold.. Well, it's 'box of frogs' nuts.. Mostly nonsense but with just a touch of reality thrown in for good measure.

This is post Palace 0:0 just 2 league games ago..

He's fucking lost it after watching that tonight, ridiculous line up, ridiculous subs, no plan, no clue, no width on our left from the LFWD all game a feature he introduced when bringing Jota in for Bobby in 20-21, he's just fucked everything off that once made us a brilliant team, there's nothing there, not a single working functioning relationship between any of those players from what it was, you could see that getting worse and worse last season despite our playing every game, we scrapped through so many by the skin of our teeth only by the virtue of having quality in depth fit forwards and defenders

That was fucking woeful tonight

Now there is the odd bit of sense in there to be fair.. We did win a good few by the skin of our teeth, just as we did when winning the title. When we got the moniker Mentality Monsters.. Or had we forgotten? "we scrapped through so many by the skin of our teeth only by the virtue of having quality in depth fit forwards and defenders". This was a theme we witnessed often.

Regardless.. I think IF we are honest and we look at last season, even IF we hate Thiago and want to try our level best to diminish his effect.. then this cannot be ignored...( Perhaps when I highlighted this.. It really took you over the edge..)

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Of the 25 games Thiago played last season - we dropped points on 4 occasions, INCLUDING his 16 minutes in the draw v Chelsea and his 22 minutes - on return from injury - in the loss V West Ham

We dropped 9 points in the 25 games he played.. That’s 66 Points from 25 games!!

We dropped 13 points in the 13 games he missed. A point a game..

As an example Henderson played in 9 of the 10 games where we dropped points. Fabinho played in 8.

This is what Thiago has brought us..after arriving in a lockdown, then getting nobbled by The Big Time Charlie.. And STILL some folks conveniently choose to ignore the crucial 26 points from a possible 30 that we took without Henderson, Without Virgil and without Matip, playing a mixture of Ryhs Williams, Phillips and Kabak across the back line.. 26 points from 30.. to take us into the Champions league places when we looked certain to miss out!

So, fast forward to this season and the massive drop off from Fabinho and the captain are clear, yet while this is an obvious issue for almost all viewers - there is a vioce that is constantly droning on and on about Thiago.

Don’t forget - we dropped 14 points in our first 14 games of the title defence season. Thiago ONLY featuring in the 2:2 draw with Everton, where he played on another level, before he and Virgil got taken out.

The disaster of playing Milner, Fab and Hendo at CB is well documented and killed us totally over the winter period, but the second that was binned, just look at the difference Thiago made to our game and our results. We shouldn’t have been able to get close to that points haul. Certainly does anyone think IF you swap Thiago for any other Mid in that side - we hit title winning form? The change was stark. It’s why he is so highly regarded by the manager and those in the industry.


We expect hacks to have their favourites and to constantly turn a blind eye to poor performances turned in by their man, but when they are relentlessly attacking the best you have and citing him as the reason… Well it’s just so laughable.

That first 14 games of the title defence season.. We had Gini still. A prime Mo, Mane and Bobby, Plus Jota.. Why were we dropping a point a game? Thiago only featured v the BS. What is the reason behind our much lower point gathering?

Surely there were many factors. A team that had spent itself in the 18 months prior taking 97 and 99 points and winning number 6…but also the huge impact of Covid on the lives of everyone.

I did some maths...

In the 35 games Thiago played in - starting from the last 10 games of 2021 (using actual CB's rather than dropping in mids) - until the end of last season:

We took 92 points! 92 points from a possible 105..

That's enough to win the league most years 3 games shy of a full league season. Still leaving the potential for a 101 point season on the table..!

This is why, despite calls that he may not suit our system being constantly levelled at him... surely, calling him out as part of the problem is utterly nonsensical?

Was he part of the Problem v Real? Part of the Problem v Palace ? Or even part of the problem in Klopp's supposed addiction to crack for the Lineup v Wolves??


Thiago will almost certainly come straight back into the team when fit. Like he has since his arrival.

[Nineteenx]

I think some people's struggle to understand how the issues arose and how they drastically limited almost all our players performing to their best is through their seemingly viewing the game purely based on what players do with the ball and it somehow almost completely unsighting them to the absolute importance of what they all do individual and collectively without it and the absolute chasm of difference between what they do trying to play 18-20 style or with a designated playmaker

If you think about it in the very simplest of terms, if you have one player constantly demanding the ball short from your keeper and defenders you are easy to mark and press and you lose your own pressing and counter pressing ability, 11 players collectively making the play from numerous different points of attack is very obviously far stronger, less easy to defend against or set up to press

[Steveo]

OH - and for the record.. Winning games by the skin of our teeth.


2019/20
We won 18 games by 2 goals or more



2021/22
We won 21 games by 2 goals or more

[Nineteenx]

I'm not reading Jon Snow's drivel, we can all find posts people make in reaction to certain things on any given day, there are plenty i could find of Jon Snow's, it's one of the many pointless petulantchildish, muddy the water antics he resorts to on here constantly with Taskin, with Crimson the other day

Just discuss the issues we're trying to debate and try offering a tangible grown up well thought out and reasoned response, or don't bother replying at all

This constant trying to attack and defame any poster who disagrees with you rather than debate the actual points made shows you almost certainly suffer from NPD i don't read your pages of muddying the waters drivel when you do this to anyone else over pages and pages of threads either

[Steveo]

Just posting your own words dude. Words you wrote 10 days ago contradicting what you said last night and what you are saying today.

Some of what you say makes sense and some of it does not, that goes for pretty much all of us, the difference is you want us to believe you know it all.

Like all mortals - you clearly don’t.

I usually let it go. And even enjoy your eccentricity at times. But when you start calling out the manager - I get particularly defensive

[Nineteenx]

When something in a game of football isn't to someone's tastes or liking or needs some tweaking or adjustment and is obviously a work in progress, such as reverting back to our 18-20 style having spent 2 seasons trying to play with a designated playmaker and rejigging every other players game to accommodate that, opinions will obviously change as the tweaks are introduced and progress is made, it doesn't make what someone said even a game ago a contradiction because things can change and take shape that quickly in football

I appreciate from your own very rigid and limited view of the game that people's perception, view and opinion of things changing as measures to improve them take place is an entirely alien concept to you Jon, it's a common trait of NPD

[Steveo]

Ok, great… but I want to understand something.

Is the manager following your concept of back to the future? Back to 2018/20?

And if he is.

What changed v Wolves or Palace or Real?

[Steveo]

I notice, still no comment on the winning games by the skin of our teeth last season. No detailed response to the fact we won more games by a 2 or more goal margin than we did the season we took the title…?

Remember No Gini - No Prime Bobby - an older Hendo - a very old Milner -Mané MIA for the first half of the season and Mo MIA for the second half? The AFCON in between…

How was this achieved while reaching every final to boot?

[Nineteenx]

I've covered all of this at considerable length over the past 2 years, how elements of our play were being broken down and how it would take time and games to re-establish them and it would prove problematic as different elements we were trying to re-establish could let us down in any given game

Two years I've been saying this

Jurgen is clearly trying to implement what i have long advocated, but because he's now arrived at the conclusion it's the best thing to do, not because iu think it's the best thing to do

What was it Carra said in commentary second half on Sunday completely unguarded?

"This is like watching Liverpool from 3 or 4 seasons ago"

And it was, but it is a massive stretch to think e re utomatically going to be able to produce that for 90 minutes every game, we did it for about 60 minutes on Sunday but it will come in time and games

[Steveo]

Try and cover this..

When we look at the games Virgil missed.

We shipped 9 goals - count them.. and scored 1

In the 4 games Virgil missed or could not complete. Only played 45 mins v Brentford.

3:1 v Brentford
3:0 v Wolves
0:0 v Chelsea
3:0 v Wolves

Yet people want to to talk about Thiago missing. Look at the results.

It's clear we are half the side without Virgil. So reliant in fact that a title defence was completely derailed for the same reason.

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