Elliott opens up about fear of joining Liverpool

[CCTV]

The issue with your presentation and use of stats CCTV as ever, is they're bear little meaningful relevance to the point you're trying to make which your continuing to do seems a very strong indicator that you don't understand our system of play

A look at some of Steveo's recent posts might help you, specifically his youtubes of Fab and Thiago as both show how the pressing and counter pressing game affects these stats and that without also having stats for successful presses and counter presses, the stats you keep presenting are meaningless without.

Steveo's youtubes inadvertently (as it wasn't his intended purpose for posting them) show lots of instances of our other players doing this really well, forcing a player into an area for another to make a tackle or blocking the lines to leave an opponent one option for a pass to make an interception easy and possible for another of our players, that's how the system works

In both Fab and Thiago's youtubes there are also many instances of them making tackles they're only having to make because they haven't played the system well and have allowed a player to be released in their area, so No of tackles can also be a stat indicating poor play, letting the press be broken, the showreels of course don't show the times they don't get back after the player and make a tackle

Most successful opposition attacks this season have been down our left and left of centre

Tackles and intercept stats show how often a player make tackles and completes intercepts.

The whole idea behind pressing and counterpressing is to create opportunities for players to make tackles stealing the ball and intercepts stealing the ball.

For me, it's quite simple making tackles and intercepts on average is a good thing.
Bobby at his peak was the best forward in Europe's top5 leagues for tackles and intercepts.

It showed his hard work, to close the distance and make contact or intercept the pass.
And Bobby had no one making the opportunities easier for him, he made them himself by being an all shit kicking wolf.

Unfortunately you find yourself trying to make arguments for tackles and intercepts being good when you like the player,
And bad when you don't like the player.

Whilst I used clean sheets and goals conceded to judge a defensive unit.
You've countered that players who've made few tackles and intercepts have had little to do, Gomez a passenger for others hard work.

But with Hendo on a par relatively with Elliot, and miles behind Thiago, you don't like to make the same assertions cause you have a bias in favour of Hendo.

It wouldn't be right for you, to apply the same logic based on stats. I mean how could you use the same deduction against hendo to suggest he is a passenger coasting off the hard work of others.

Personally I think you land yourself in such quagmires due to the vitriol you hold against some players and not against others. Then you try to rubbish stats and make new deductions.

Like with Trent I point to his decline in key passes from last season and you like to put this on everyone else. The system, Klopp, Elliot in his space, Thiago making too many passes etc...
But Salah, Tsimi and Robbo all have maintained their key passes per game from last season. And are now on a par with trent essentially. Far ahead on PL assists - which you rate the most until it doesn't suit you - eg Jota you rubbished his stats due to all comps, they improved when PL only stats were used.

Salahs goals and assists are on a par relative to last season, they are down per minute in a much poorer season but not by much. The idea Elliot has had a major impact on Salahs play are not born out by stats.

Now, I in no way would take offence to people saying I slate Elliott. But I do try to be fair.

You've recently seen me say I put my World class Trent opinion out very early on. And stood by it but think he's become a bum, attitude not ability of late.
Reading reports of yesterday it seems his mentality was switched on by agitation, a fucking disgrace really if true. At least he reacted but needing that to get some drive into your game, scandalous.

You've seen me say I voted for virgil over hendo for pots, and hendo winning it or being nominated wasn't a major issue for me. VVD won it on here. Even steveo saying he remembers me praising hendo and defending his ranking.

But you like to think I have an agenda against these players, and such weak suggestions usually follow as a means of moving away from the discussion.

Bobby routinely pressing and counterpressing from the front this year, has tackles and intercepts stats comparable with Hendo and Elliot. There's fook all people in front of him creating the opportunities to make it easier for him.
Elliot and Hendo in contrast have those players and essentially are too busy shadow boxing in a battle. Milner at 37 outperforms both.

Any player who makes 7 tackles&intercepts in a game is a nominee for motm.
Yesterday Konate had 8 total and Partey 7, Konate given a motm shout by Miller and Parteys absence pointed to as arsenal collapsed last season.

For the dirty mancs in the PL
Casemiro is making 4.4 combined per game
BrunoF is making 2.7 per game combined.

Last year Hendo managed 1.7 whilst Fab and Thiago were around 3.

This year:
Thiago 4.2
Fab 2.7
Hendo 1.4

Maybe instead of balling out teammates he might want to start imposing himself on opponents.
It's never been his strong suit, but he used to cover a lot for Trent. But that has gone from his game as he has notions of being a 10.

Casemiros absence is noted as factor in Uniteds results, like Partey last year for Arsenal.
Steveo points to our results when Thiago is out, but imo steveo points to his technique when he should be pointing to the tackles and intercepts.

Ball winners will always be important in football, tackles and intercepts are the markers for hard work off the ball.

As it stands, Thiago has 3 times as many tackles&intercepts per game in the PL as Hendo.
Both Fab & Hendo have declined on their numbers since last year. Thiago has increased his numbers per game in the PL.

[Nineteenx]

So you agree the idea of pressing and counter pressing is to enable other players to make tackles and intercepts, but you post stats for tackles and intercepts without relevant pressing and counter pressing stats, Henderson is one of our best pressers and counter pressers, he's mostly one of the players doing the work so others can make the tackles and intercepts

Thiago has made a lot of tackles from being out of position in the first place this season, recovery tackles, but recovering his own error, having more tackles and more than anyone else can mean you're the player most frequently caught out of position in some case Pretty straight forward

[Steveo]

Thiago has had to play that role CC, The interceptor. That’s the only way we get the core trio on the field. And as Hendo simply cannot win a duel and Fabinho is as clumsy as a 3 legged oxen of late, it’s become more and more obvious. He has to perform that role because nobody else can.

The fact that Thiago hasn’t been able to play his natural game is the fault of recruitment or rather - the lack of. But it is his technique CC. His technique and ability to win a ball and make the next ball count is immense for us. It’s all that stood between a season of mediocrity last season and one that almost stood out in history,

Just watch the game yesterday. Clearly not close to fit and off a long lay off and he is already worrying the opponent - the one that sits top of the table - with his ability to shift the ball in an instant.

He wrong foots teams in a lesser way to Modric. It’s something that often goes unnoticed in this part of the world. If we had that in our midfield in 2019 or 2020 we are winning doubles at the very least,

[Nineteenx]

And best not to start compiling a list of the tackles he misses when caught out of position, it's a lot longer than the successful ones

Thiago's cameo yesterday was his best game for us in a very long time, mostly because the TEAM has got back into a few elements, be no means all, of how the team played at it's best before we signed him, rather than how Thiago thinks they should play, and he just came in and played as another cog in the machine, still didn't create anything mind

That's what I'm looking for from now until the end of the season from Thiago, we bought him to create and he hasn't done that plain and simple and this is his third season, it's been a very long and frustrating wait for him to start delivering what be signed him for and what he gets paid more than any of our other mids to do

[Steveo]

Good to see CC at least highlighting how far ahead of our other Mids Thiago has been this season in the tackle intercept department. it’s become so important as we try to integrate a new front line while playing with a midfield that has WAY too many miles on the clock.

Sadly, Henderson is just not justifying a berth. Not in a team with an adequate squad. He isn’t scoring, he isn’t tackling and he sure as shit isn’t intercepting… in fact all he seems to be doing is shouting and pointing.

He has an almost free role yet creates almost nothing.

Has become a passenger. Needs to up his game or it’s the Milner role at best for him next season.

[teesred]

I think it will definitely be the Milner role for him next season. It'll be a good one too, he won't play as many games and can still do a great job when needed.

[Steveo]

Honestly that all depends on who we capture this summer. IF we do the business we should have done years ago then things might be very different. Milner only gets time because we’re totally bereft of options.

Romance aside Hendo will be here because he is not a target for anyone and is on big wages that nobody else in their right mind would pay.

[CCTV]

So you agree the idea of pressing and counter pressing is to enable other players to make tackles and intercepts, but you post stats for tackles and intercepts without relevant pressing and counter pressing stats, Henderson is one of our best pressers and counter pressers, he's mostly one of the players doing the work so others can make the tackles and intercepts

Thiago has made a lot of tackles from being out of position in the first place this season, recovery tackles, but recovering his own error, having more tackles and more than anyone else can mean you're the player most frequently caught out of position in some case Pretty straight forward

1) Whilst trying to rubbish Fabs tackle and intercept stats in the past, you've proposed that our pressing and counterpressing system WAS DESIGNED NOT to win the ball back via tackles and intercepts.
Naturally I found that idea hilarious and stoopid.

Fab having high tackle and intercept stats needed to be rubbished so you found a way, a mad way.
So I'm not sure, you are in agreement with me on the idea.

Prior to that you said that Gomez making few tackles and intercepts, the thing you go back to so often... was a sign of his having nothing to do due to others hard work.
Here low tackle and intercept stats were also bad.

Here one might think Gomez was excellent as he made few tackles and intercepts (playing cb) the ideal of the system when slating Fab.
Or one might think Fabs high tackle and intercepts, was a sign of doing all the work for others.

But you have this need to find new ways to make new deductions depending on the player in question.

For me there are a few key stats in football for players.
Tackles and intercepts are vital stats in measuring the hard working off the ball players.
It is easy to shadow box, it's harder to box.

As said, Bobby in his pomp led Europe's top 5 leagues as the highest Tackling&Intercept stats forward. The hardest working forward around then.

Presently, as back then, Bobby plays centrally in our 433.
He leads the press and counterpress from the front - nobody in front of him.
His tackle and intercept stats are comparable with both Elliot & Hendo. Who have forwards pressing and counterpressing so others can benefit and make tackles and intercepts. Namely midfielders and fullbacks.

Fab makes double and Thiago makes triple the amount of tackles&intercepts than both hendo/Elliot with 3 forwards ahead of all 4 players.

2) if you actually agree with the statement the press and counterpress is designed so players can make tackles and intercepts....

And thiago has made the most of anyone in our squad in the PL - why do you even think he's out of position in doing the most of the stats the system is designed to produce ?

He's no1 for tackles per game this season,
He's no 2 behind Konate for intercepts.

You seem to be proposing that
A) the goal of pressing and counter is to make tackles and intercepts
B) Yet the player who makes the most only does so because he's constantly in the wrong position..
C) were he in the right position he wouldn't have the opportunity to do the thing our system is designed and seeking to do
D) cause the right position is one where he'd make less tackles and Intercepts...

[Nineteenx]

Thiago was bought to create, he has no goals or assists or meaningful passes to release anyone to assist

Our pressing and counter pressing is what most frequently creates the opportunity for one of our players to make an interception or tackle

I don't expect Hendo's tackle stats to ever be high, because that's never been his game under Jurgen, he is positionally far stronger than all our other midfielders and uses that to be our best presser,

I'm quite happy with that as 50% of the time we have a mid throwing themselves into a tackle, it means they've been caught out of position, There aren't stats for all the time they're caught out and don't make a successful press or tackle

Thiago & Fab are our only players in any position who do regularly throw themselves into tackles, interceptions, recoveries and block tackles or taking the ball off an opposition players toes as he comes round another of our players are what we do most of

[Nineteenx]

The point I've been making, Thiago gives silly free kicks away quite frequently having to dive in too

I'm tad annoyed at Fabinho's smirk when he commits a foul. 1/2 of them were incorrect. But most of the time hes slow footed and brings the opponent down..Stop the silly behaviour and play better.