Reason No. 398,285 why it's not good to have your club owned by a Petro-Oligarch

[Crimson Dynasty]

You have to watch out for outliers being used to justify the endless use of a futile tactic.. here's the abstract from a paper on the matter:


"This paper considers the economic sanctions that were applied in the mid-1980s to pressure the South African government to end apartheid.

It asks what role those sanctions played in the eventual demise of the apartheid regime and concludes that the role was probably very small.

An alternative explanation for the regime change is offered: the communist bloc combined to bring about the change.

If one is to argue for the efficacy of sanctions, two key obstacles are their limited economic impact and the substantial lag between the imposition of sanctions and the political change.

Since sanctions preceded the change of government, it is impossible to rule them out as a determinant.

However, their principal effect was probably psychological. The implication is that the South African case should not serve as the lone major instance of effective sanctions."


I believe trade is the main motivator for peace between nations, so cutting off trade is very dicey as a tactic

This is nonsense.

You claimed that sanctions don't work.
You were given proof of a country where they DID in fact, work and then respond by quoting "some" paper that claims that it wasn't the sanctions that led to South Africa giiving up the apartheid regime.
(what was it, then? South Africa doesn't have the luxury of massive oile resources that can keep its economy afloat despite sanctions like countries like Russia or Iran or Venezuela do)

We don't even know where that "paper" is from, since you never bothered properly citing it, so it can't even be properly refuted.

Sanctions also worked in Libya to dissaude Gaddafi from pursuing a Nuclear weapons program back in the 1990's
(granted it was combined with the threat of military strikes - but the sanctions did play a larger role than just the threat)

but I'm sure your "paper" has something to say on that as well.


"The communist bloc was the one that really ended the apartheid regime"

What pure utter unadulterated drivel.
The same communist bloc that was in the midst of collapsing as an entity (i.e late 80's/ early '90's) at right around the same time the the South African apartheid regime was ending.

Right.

[Taksin]

So seriously, what is the alternative? Do we just let him him stride into every Eastern Europe democracy? I don’t know enough about the politics or the history, but I do know that innocent women and children are dying in yet another pointless conflict.

Yes wars are pointless in the end.

Here's a question though - our recent wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and Libya - they caused vastly more pointless suffering, collateral damage, bombing of schools and hospitals, leaving behind endless carnage and unresolved misery. Also, ongoing Saudi incursions into Yemen

Google reveals;
"A new United Nations report has projected that the death toll from Yemen's war will reach 377,000 by the end of 2021, including those killed as a result of indirect and direct causes."

Why are our leaders not mad men and everything to do with us sanctioned? (or the Saudis?)

Is it because we had reasons for doing what we did? Or because it suits our geopolitics to fuck with the gas supply lines and the irritating issue of Russian obstinate sovereignty?

Well, Putin has his reasons and many of them have been exacerbated by the actions of NATO (that's us) The EU (that's also us) and the Americans. Don't believe me? Do a little research. Look at the footage of American diplomats (including John McCain) talking to Ukraine troops in 2017.

Then look at the Western role in the revolution that installed the anti Russian Zelensky by coup.
Then the treatment of Russians, denied the vote for 8 years, they make up the overwhelming majority of the 14,000 deaths since 2014. There are, yes, Neo-Nazi militia attacking them, bombing them and killing them, joking about drinking the blood of Russian children.

Putin said he will defend Russians wherever they are - its far more reasonable than our interference in Libya or Iraq.
Kiev has been the capital of Russia historically - it's more like a Russian civil war than an invasion.

[Taksin]

What "diplomatic solutions' would those be, exactly?

The Russians have asked for 3 conditions to be met to end the war. From the Kremlin

"They should make amendments to the constitution according to which Ukraine would reject any aims to enter any bloc.

"We have also spoken about how they should recognise that Crimea is Russian territory and that they need to recognise that Donetsk and Lugansk are independent states. And that's it. It will stop in a moment."

"However, these are requirements that Ukraine has so far rejected, as Zelenskiy does not want to give independence to the Donbas areas, and has applied for EU and NATO membership. Moreover, he considers the annexation of Crimea to be illegal."

So the question is whether Zelensy is a hero or a fool pushing us into WW3. And if he is a fool, who is pushing him and offering him a golden parachute.

[Taksin]

This is nonsense.

It's from Yale

http://www.econ.yale.edu/growth_pdf/cdp796.pdf

I don't know why you're so sure about sanctions in SA. There seem to be opinions that are impenetrable to historical challenge, such as the New Deal having cured the Great Depression. They just become articles of faith.

The sanctions here are another order of magnitude, not aimed at persuasion but at total destruction. If you think our leadership is clever enough to know what they are doing exactly, good luck to you. I don't

It may be that the only thing that will save us is the deep state, the swamp, with just enough self restraint to keep fingers away from the buttons, but no one else seems to understand what's going on. And the propaganda on our side is dream like, childish and very dangerous.

[CCTV]

Alot of people loved Hitler, it doesn't make it right 🤣🤣

Nato removed their post with the stunning and brave freedom fighters donning the nazi black sun symbol.

They put a lot of effort in to making sure no third reich flags, or Ukrainian flags with the wolfsangel or swastika were in their post tbf.

[Taksin]

Here's an article about the treatment of Russians by Nazi paramilitaries in Ukraine and the role of Zelensky

https://thegrayzone.com/2022/03/04/nazis-ukrainian-war-russia/

[CCTV]

What "diplomatic solutions' would those be, exactly?

So far Putin's "diplomacy" has consisted of inviting Ukranians to have talks, while using the time to continue to pound their country with more bombings.
And then humanitarian corridors are proposed to allow non-combatant Ukranians to leave or go to safer parts of the country, and he then proceeds to bomb those corridors.
Or only allow pathways to lead to Russia or to his ally Belarus, from which his staging the invasion.

How is that diplomacy?

And this is aside from the fact that in the weeks leading up to the invasion, every world leader under the sun from Macron to the German Chancellor pleaded with him not to invade Ukraine, even assuring him that Ukraine wouldn't be allowed to join NATO anytime in the near future - with the Ukrainians themselves even offering to commit to not applying for membership.

At this point, since no one seems to really know what he wants out of all this (even his own generals, it seems), it begs the question of what the aim of dimplmatic talks would actually be?

To help him establish a puppet government in Ukraine?
To add Ukraine to its borders as another Russian province?
And how is he going to run that with an Economy in tatters at home?

Would you like to buy my bridge ?

This has been a diplomatic issue since the mid 2000s. No further expansion from Nato towards Russia.

There have been agreements that haven't been met. Zelensky talking about needing a nuclear deterrent and wants into Nato. A kind of opposite of his elected platform.
A bit like Obamas platform that saw him awarded a Nobel Peace Prize before bombing the shit out of smaller nations. His army running out of bombs one year.

It's a nation that has a divide and should probably be split in two.

Much like Ireland, leave the pro-russians their share in the East, and the pro-eu/nato theirs in the west, with a big dead zone in between the two. And thereafter leave it well alone.

[CCTV]

And CD you can find Kissinger and numerous other diplomats and foreign policy experts from the west, who have all foreseen the emergence of this war, potentially going nuclear, as a result of foreign policy decisions to keep expanding towards Russia and creating an existential threat for Putin.

[teesred]

The Russians have asked for 3 conditions to be met to end the war. From the Kremlin

"They should make amendments to the constitution according to which Ukraine would reject any aims to enter any bloc.

"We have also spoken about how they should recognise that Crimea is Russian territory and that they need to recognise that Donetsk and Lugansk are independent states. And that's it. It will stop in a moment."

"However, these are requirements that Ukraine has so far rejected, as Zelenskiy does not want to give independence to the Donbas areas, and has applied for EU and NATO membership. Moreover, he considers the annexation of Crimea to be illegal."

So the question is whether Zelensy is a hero or a fool pushing us into WW3. And if he is a fool, who is pushing him and offering him a golden parachute.

The problem with giving sovereignty to those areas is that where does it stop? At first it was Crimea, now its Donestsk and Lugansk.
He's literally throwing Russia back to the cold War era, they will be cut off from everyone and living in poverty.

Personally I don't like Zelenskys language, he's actively wanting other countries to engage in this and nobody outside of Ukraine wants that. As usual the western media is not putting out the complete story like 19 says.

It really is a no win situation, Putin won't stop as he loses face . Cannot see him doing that. The only way this ends is if he takes the regions by force or he is overthrown by his own, I don't see Ukraine coming out winners in any endgame.
Could the oligarchs turn on Putin and basically have him "removed" to stop them losing their fortunes?

[CCTV]

It's all politically motivated though SB, it isn't being done for the reasons the West media and making out

It is true that the Ukraine indiscriminately bombed and attacked areas of the Ukraine that were mostly inhabited by Russian separatists who don't think their life has improved through leaving the USSR for the past 8 years, so as usual with our media, people aren't getting the full story as to why this invasion has happened and why there is the brutality there is, 2 wrongs don't make a right.

And it is highly and grossly hypocritical, we sold arms and bombs to the Saudi Gov to wage and illegal ethnic cleansing war (not really a war, just them bombing the shit out of a defenseless country) specifically and deliberately targeting civilians throughout, trying to eradicate them off the face of the planet - After UN asked for sanctions and for nations to stop supplying them bombs and arms, everyone did, except the UK - But the Saudi Prince is allowed to own Newcastle and is a great guy?

Israel have been in breach of exactly the same international laws as Russia are currently for over 40 years - The are illegally occupying another nations territory, they bomb and kill civilian targets, they bulldoze their settlements flat and then occupy them - Our Gov and MPs take their money, their money's apparently good, Liverpool did a deal with AXA for our new training ground despite their known and well documented complicity in Israel's continuing illegal occupation of Palestine.

Two things my head, how its wired has never been able to stand are hypocrisy and bullying and both are involved in what I'm talking about

Sanction Russian, Saudi, UAE and Israeli Oligarchs, ban them from owning clubs in the UK or financing them, forbid clubs engaging in enterprises with any companies associated or connected with them, across the board if you're genuinely doing it on the grounds you claim to be - I don't believe in one rule for one and one rule for another

Zelensky was elected on a platform of reducing the widespread increase of corruption associated with the pro-eu/nato installed government. He was also elected on a platform of deescalsting tensions and rebuilding relations with Russia.
It is reminiscent of how Obama and many other popstar politicians get elected. Both media darlings.

Yemen is a proxy war between China/Iran & Saudi/Nato.

The Jews believe in an ancestral home called Israel. They took it back. The dispossessed don't like that and the issues there are longstanding.
People like to say things like the Palestinians only have rocks. But they fire missiles and the Jews fire up their iron dome, costing far more than their counterparts.

That's just how things are in the world and essentially peace, is only possible where all involved stop acting the cunt for a long enough time to build trust.

I do hope Tony Blair buys Chelsea.