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Thread: Captain

  1. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nineteenx View Post
    Why are you using stats for seasons ago that are in no way relevant to our current team and how it has evolved and over which times several players have got so much better? Fabinho is irrefutable evidence that even 2 months is a very long time in this team and a lot can change, I'd actually be tempted to offload Fabinho and get Soumare in, he isn't a true No6 and will never have the a midfielder's reading of the game or passing
    I'm using 18/19 and 19/20 as since the start of the 18/19 season we've had a settled squad and 11 mostly.

    Only Minamino, Van der Berg and Elliot have been signed since summer 18/19 and none of them have really done anything of note or altered the squad/team.

    Also as stated looking at stats over a longer time give a better picture.
    Your small sample as a predictor or extrapolating, would lead us to some pretty dumb expectations.

  2. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCTV View Post
    I'm using 18/19 and 19/20 as since the start of the 18/19 season we've had a settled squad and 11 mostly.

    Only Minamino, Van der Berg and Elliot have been signed since summer 18/19 and none of them have really done anything of note or altered the squad/team.

    Also as stated looking at stats over a longer time give a better picture.
    Your small sample as a predictor or extrapolating, would lead us to some pretty dumb expectations.
    My Fabinho at No6 and Hendo at No6 sample from this season was entirely relevant to your argument, because according to you, the better midfield and team press and counter press in Fabinho's absence, had absolutely nothing to do with our defences clean sheets, which quite frankly, is an absolutely ridiculous assertion
    "If Everton were playing at the bottom of my garden, i'd close the curtains”

  3. #293
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    It must be remembered that in Hendo's 13 games at No6 and 11 clean sheets, the 2 games that weren't clean sheets:

    Twatkinson let Dunk have a free shot into an open goal while Adrian was lining his wall up was one having just come on after Allisson saw red

    The other v Wolves our press wasn't being broken, Wolves were getting most joy through Jiminez bullying Gomez and winning the ball ahead of him and Joe was badly at fault for their goal too
    "If Everton were playing at the bottom of my garden, i'd close the curtains”

  4. #294
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    Playmaking masterclass, there's loads more of those too, the guy should have made a full 15 minutes of them from this season 'Not creative' get to fuck! Look at the ones buggers missed too! ! ! He'd be top of our assists charts if people would be more clinical with their finishing - If you watch show reels ever, you'd know that most players do not have that many passes of that quality in 3 seasons worth, that's less than half of Hendo's in this season



    Didn't even include this absolute beauty

    https://streamable.com/q1e5e?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name %20%20=iossmf
    Last edited by Nineteenx; 8th March 2020 at 06:37 AM.
    "If Everton were playing at the bottom of my garden, i'd close the curtains”

  5. #295
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    @19 I asked you what game was the third loss with VVD & Gomez CBs & Fabinho 6. I'm aware of the away games v Atletico and Chelsea, what's the third game you're citing ?

    I've critiqued your small sample of games on this matter.
    I've suggested your predictive ability based on this small sample would be pretty poor.
    IF Gomez and VVD are our centrebacks with Fabinho at 6 and we play 40 games, how many do you think we'd lose?

    If we play 40 games with that 3 in position, most would be with our strongest 11, half home, half away, most in the pl, then the rest would be mostly CL and perhaps 1 or no game in both the fa cup and efl cup.

    If we use your small sample it would seem that we might lose as many as 20 of 40 games should that 3 start.
    What prediction would you make for 40 games based on your small sample with that 3?

    From what I've read of your posts it seems you'd expect a catastrophic collapse. Selling Fabinho to avert long term kloppaster. Losing every second game as Virgil and Gomez play CB and Fabinho 6. Such is your passionate posting.
    Imo you are a little biased
    Hendo as good as Mascherano and Alonso fused/combined into one man/goat v Sell Fabinho

    Had Matip & Henderson played in the loss v Chelsea i suspect we might have seen the return of your (Adrian played in goal) but we dont see it with Gomez and Fabinho.
    In talking about that specific game it could have been (Adrian in goals, Lallana & Jones our 8s [you have posted about Jones not being an 8, many others about Adam], Klopp sticking with Origi lwf again your posting on that, Mane out of position and Robbo playing a waste as a result iyo and maybe Minamino an ineffective 9 on the brief glimpses I've seen so far)

  6. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCTV View Post
    I've suggested your predictive ability based on this small sample would be pretty poor.
    IF Gomez and VVD are our centrebacks with Fabinho at 6 and we play 40 games, how many do you think we'd lose?
    The point I was illustrating, as you well know, was not that we'd lose that amount of games over 40 games, but the incredible difference between Henderson at No6 and Fabinho at No6 that you argued long and hard had nothing to do with our clean sheets, so maybe, stop being a clown? You know what your argument was

    Henderson at No6 all competitions P13 W13 D0 L0 GF25 GA2 Clean sheets 11 Team failed to score 0 (zero)

    Draws - Zero

    Losses - Zero

    Failed to score - Zero

    On the Henderson at No6 clean sheets, let's also remember the 2 conceded, 1 v Brighton when Twatkinson allowed Dunk a free shot into an open goal when Adrian who had just come on was still positioning his wall. And the other wasn't the press being broken, it was Jiminez bullying Gomez winning headers in front of him and intiating their play from there and Gomez was at fault for the goal

    Fabinho at No6 all competitions P25 W18 D3 L4 GF52 GA31 Clean sheets 3 (THREE) Team failed to score 4 (FOUR)

    Losses - Napoli - Atletico - Watford - Chelsea FA Cup

    Then we get on to CB pairings with Fabinho at No6

    Van Dijk - Matip P10 W8 D1 L1 GF21 GA10 Clean sheets 2(Adrian in goal all games)

    Van Dijk - Lovren P9 W7 D1 L1 GF18 GA11 Clean sheets 0 (zero)

    Van Dijk - Gomez P5 W3 D0 L2 GF11 GA8 Clean sheets 1

    8 conceded in 5 games does not paint a picture of that CB partnership being the reason for clean sheets or Fabinho at No6 helping that statistic

    Very compelling

    Your entire argument was that the sole reason for the clean sheets was the Van Dijk Gomez partnership and were arguing against is being anything whatsoever to do with Hendo at No6, the interchanging of the 3 midfielder players in those games and our team press and counter press being better than it's ever been as a result and that Fabinho was the better player at No6, those meaningful stats show your arguments were a load of nonsense.
    Last edited by Nineteenx; 10th March 2020 at 02:51 AM.
    "If Everton were playing at the bottom of my garden, i'd close the curtains”

  7. #297
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    Anyway, as I said before he was brought back in, Jurgen, Henderson and the coaches need to work with Fabinho on improving his game and raising his level of play to the levels of Henderson at No6. Fabinho's performance v Spurs needs to be the minimum level he performs the role at and even in that (the short highlights) I could highlight 5 or 6 instances his press or counter press position was wrong and he was ball watching admiring our attack and not picking up.

    The major part of the improvement needs to be positioning, reading of the game, awareness and improving his distribution. The other improvement, if he is to play at No6 is he has to start playing right across the width of the pitch as a true No6 does to facilitate the rotation/interchanging of our midfield 3 throughout games as that was very effective in our press and counter press barely ever being broken and it being far harder for teams to try and counter because the 3 weren't in fixed position for them to set up to counter off

    The press and counter press is at its most effective with the No6 playing right across the line (the width of the pitch), the 3 midfielders rotating/interchanging positions in the game and most crucially when all our 11 players are always in play.

    For all 11 players to be always in play it requires higher levels of concentration, focus, awareness, positioning and reading of the game. You can't have your No6 admiring our attacks when he should be scanning the pitch for where any potential danger for a counter is and adjusting his position and picking up, when he does that, which he does quite a lot, is when the press and counter press can get broken and often does

    Edit: Also that's the point of the squad and bringing players in and competition for places, Fabinho came in at No6, replaced Hendo, Fabinho got injured, Hendo returned to No6 and raised the level hugely, then Fabinho has to raise his levels to those of Henderson to get back in at No6 surely? That's how it's supposed to work.

    I think maybe it didn't work like that because of our lack of strength in depth and imbalance between holding No8's (we use mostly) and more attacking No8's

    Although Matip raised the bar hugely at RCB and Gomez didn't improve on his performances but we still didn't get Matip fit and back in as soon as possible
    Last edited by Nineteenx; 10th March 2020 at 03:19 AM.
    "If Everton were playing at the bottom of my garden, i'd close the curtains”

  8. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nineteenx View Post
    The point I was illustrating, as you well know, was not that we'd lose that amount of games over 40 games, but the incredible difference between Henderson at No6 and Fabinho at No6 that you argued long and hard had nothing to do with our clean sheets, so maybe, stop being a clown? You know what your argument was

    Henderson at No6 all competitions P13 W13 D0 L0 GF25 GA2 Clean sheets 11 Team failed to score 0 (zero)

    Draws - Zero

    Losses - Zero

    Failed to score - Zero

    On the Henderson at No6 clean sheets, let's also remember the 2 conceded, 1 v Brighton when Twatkinson allowed Dunk a free shot into an open goal when Adrian who had just come on was still positioning his wall. And the other wasn't the press being broken, it was Jiminez bullying Gomez winning headers in front of him and intiating their play from there and Gomez was at fault for the goal

    Fabinho at No6 all competitions P25 W18 D3 L4 GF52 GA31 Clean sheets 3 (THREE) Team failed to score 4 (FOUR)

    Losses - Napoli - Atletico - Watford - Chelsea FA Cup

    Then we get on to CB pairings with Fabinho at No6

    Van Dijk - Matip P10 W8 D1 L1 GF21 GA10 Clean sheets 2(Adrian in goal all games)

    Van Dijk - Lovren P9 W7 D1 L1 GF18 GA11 Clean sheets 0 (zero)

    Van Dijk - Gomez P5 W3 D0 L2 GF11 GA8 Clean sheets 1

    8 conceded in 5 games does not paint a picture of that CB partnership being the reason for clean sheets or Fabinho at No6 helping that statistic

    Very compelling

    Your entire argument was that the sole reason for the clean sheets was the Van Dijk Gomez partnership and were arguing against is being anything whatsoever to do with Hendo at No6, the interchanging of the 3 midfielder players in those games and our team press and counter press being better than it's ever been as a result and that Fabinho was the better player at No6, those meaningful stats show your arguments were a load of nonsense.
    Not sure you have my argument down right. Seems you've proposed an argument and as I've not agreed you've seen this as you frame it.

    My argument is that Gomez & Virgil are our best Cb pairing. Shown how Gomez has in 18/19 and 19/20 (will have to double check after recent results) has a better ppg average in both the pl and all comps- for both seasons, higher amounts of clean sheets and less goals conceded.

    My secondary argument is regarding midfield, where I think our best midfield has Fabinho 6 and Hendo rcm (something you used to agree with also) over Hendo at 6 and Fabinho benched or sold. I gather you've moved on and see Fabinho as a liability of sorts or one to sell for Soumare.

    You've provided a small sample of games with which to argue against these claims made from a larger sample, yet you dont seem to hold or willing to answer how your argument would lead you to make a prediction.
    You want to rebut the argument based on a larger sample, with a smaller sample and yet make no prediction based on your own argument. That doesnt seem like a very sound approach.
    I'm confident enough to predict that over their careers from the 18/19 season onwards ,that VVD and Gomez will have better stats than VVD and Matip.
    I'm guessing you'd expect Matip to have better stats?
    With Gomez at CB we've lost 1 game v Atletico away (it happens) and one v chelsea (Adrian in goal, Lallana & Jones cms, Mane not lwf, minamino 9 and Origi wrecking everything at lwf )

    With Hendo 6 v Fabinho 6 theres more wiggle room. Fabinho won 18/19 & Hendo 19/20. So rather than a stats based approach here it's more my intuition or gut that says we'll do better with Hendo at rcm and Fabinho 6 than Hendo 6 and Fabinho benched. I'm happy enough with Fab/Gini/Hendo being used to cover 2 midfield berths over a season.
    Alot of this imo is down to the job Hendo does at rcm. It's the weaker side defensively and he makes up a lot of the difference between Mane/Robbo/Virgil v Salah/Trent/Gomez or Matip defensively. The lcm berth is an easier role imo.
    I think we miss Hendo at rcm, with Milner best placed to replace him in his absence and only the ox really getting joy there too imo, but he doesnt offer the same grit defensively as the other 2.

    Kenny Cunningham agrees with you on Hendo and not with Matip. In his opinion Gomez and Hendo are the best 2 to fill those 2 positions with Virgil. Mostly due to their pace, covering ground and their greater ease of turning/flexibility.

    Thirdly in analysing our recent mini slump I think there is more to it than just your focus on Hendo/Fabinho & Gomez/Matip at 6 and Cb.
    First up Hendo being injured is a big miss as he's our form midfielder by some distance and works his socks off on that right side of midfield or at 6 tbf. It's why I'd gone to rest him v Norwich ahead of Atletico. Yet despite your claiming he got injured as Fabinho played 6, you disagreed with resting him for the game v Atletico.
    Fabinho is returning from injury and not been at his best.
    For me in our recent struggles the 8s in our system have been rather poor and deployed poorly. Whether its us dominating possession and their not really pushing through the middle and playing some football, or being complacent in their positioning Jones/Lallana really.
    Think we've also just hit a wall of late. Where outside of Cb and 6 there are other players who've looked jaded. But such is the bad luck of playing in the side at that time.
    Over a longer timeframe/sample the assumption is that these things even themselves out. Obviously this doesn't hold true and this is the weakness of the stat comparison. Trying to offer up mitigating circumstances invites a whole host of other variables and requires a lot of details to be considered.
    Then theres also imo been the ever greater focus on our setup from opposition. Thought we were lucky enough to get a win v Watford and Spurs, west ham too but for Trent. Teams have been working away at trying to get around our setup for defending set pieces mostly Wolves imo and Atletico did this best. Similar again with our attacking patterns and shutting them down.
    Whilst we get real joy out wide imo our 8s havent really pushed through what's looked like a soft or fake centre as teams look primed to go out wide in the absence of this pushing through the middle. In the few instances we've given through the middle weve had some joy.
    Again over a longer timeframe these things dissipate and become less relevant.

    Maybe Klopp hasnt picked Matip lately because hes returning from injury, a longer time out than initially thought and has to get back his match sharpness.
    Klopps done it before and that's how Lovren got his stint in the side as Gomez coming back from an even longer injury than Matip iirc, wasnt on his game.

  9. #299
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    Yawn, you're still making the clean sheets argument as being reliant on that pairing when last season their only clean sheets as a pairing were playing in a 4231 with 2 No6's so isn't a good indicator and is irrelevant to performances in a 433 with just one No6.

    You insist on complete reliance on individual player stats that don't offer a true picture of how and why the clean sheets were attained and continue with this insistence that it is down to that pairing, when recent results with that pairing and with Hendo at No6 and the incredible team press and counter press him being there gave us meant our defenders had a lot less defending to do and the only time they had serious defending to do was actually when a bigger more powerful striker bullied Gomez and was winning balls ahead of him.

    So the press and counter press with Hendo at No6 was absolutely superb, hugely restricted opportunities for the opposition to counter and the majority of the defending our CB pairing had to do was win headers and prevent flick ons from attempted long balls that were the oppositions only point of attempted attack, and Gomez couldn't even do that in some games.

    No excuse for not getting Matip match fit and give him game time during that period as the defence was so well protected and Matip's a lot stronger aerially which was most sides only point of attack because the team press and counter press was so damn good.

    The only goals we conceded in that period were 1 v Brighton because Twatkinson let Dunk take a free kick into an open goal when Adrian who had just come on was trying to organise his wall, so it wasn't a result of our press being broken. The only other goal we conceded and a few chances was v Wolves and most of their chances weren't from breaking our press and counter press, they were from Gomez getting bullied and beaten in the air by Jiminez and he was badly at fault for their goal when his position was simply woeful.

    As I continually say, it's not good to pick a CB on the basis of an additional bit of pace alone, as there are so many situations in games when that additional bit of pace can't make up for the lesser positioning, awareness, reading of the game and lesser aerial ability/dominance.

    I can give some examples re Gomez, Wolves he got bullied by Jiminez, was at fault for the goal, allowed them several attacks through his lack of aerial dominance despite our press and counter press being superb.

    Atletico, got targeted for their corner, failed to win the header or do enough to stop their lad getting the header, they end up scoring as a result. Wasn't strong enough or dominant enough aerially in the rest of the game, couldn't get headers clear, ended up having to head them our for throws to Atletico allowing them to run the clock down more and attempt some attacks from those positions

    West Ham, got targeted and done on a corner again for their opener and got done with his own atrocious positioning for their second, again an area/situation where the extra pace can't help him

    Chelsea, got bullied by Giroud, again got targeted at a corner and again was found badly wanting and we were incredibly lucky not to concede within 5 minutes as a result. Absolutely woeful for their second goal, it started with Fabinho getting in a simply ridiculous counter press position, Gomez should have been reacting to that pushing up to cover that area as Matip does so regularly to bail fabinho out, but he was back on his heels and went back and back and back without any attempt to make a challenge, it was absolutely piss poor, Matip would go to the player there and make a challenge every day of the week

    I know you're a massive Gomez fan boy and are in the camp that a player being quicker even though in this case it's only a bit quicker is the best thing ever, it really isn't
    Last edited by Nineteenx; 10th March 2020 at 09:07 PM.
    "If Everton were playing at the bottom of my garden, i'd close the curtains”

  10. #300
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    You brought up this 4231/42X argument before and I pointed out that last season Gomez got injured at the very beginning of this period where we played 4231.

    He played cb in a 4231 for 1 pl game v Everton iirc, less than Lovren & Matip who played during that 4231/42X period.
    So by your own argument he lost out on the benefit of 2 6's in 4231.

    I'm a Matip fan boy too
    Pretty sure Gomez is our fastest or one of our fastest players.

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