Prison sentences too lenient?

[Nineteenx]

I've always thought they are for many crimes, just watching CI on Sky documenting a few cases in which offenders were given ridiculously lenient sentences and released only to commit further atrocities.

I think sentences for certain crimes are far too lenient, my sister's estranged husband, who she still regularly saw as she had 2 kids with him was doped and murdered by 2 knobs who decided to dope him and beat him up because they were out with some silly bitch who liked to cause trouble by claiming blokes were cracking on to her, they killed him by beating him repeatedly with pool cues, a part of this was ramming them as hard as they could into one of his ears, which caused bleeding on the brain and killed him.

They were only found out because one of the guys had returned home and was having a laugh and a joke about it and bragging about it to his girlfriend, the babysitter overheard and grassed him up, then in the trial it transpired that someone living in the pub they did it after hours had heard it happening and my sister's ex repeatedly pleading with them to 'please stop'

The pair got charged with manslaughter, were given 8 years and were both out in 3, how the fuck can that be right?

[Balinkay]

Very sorry to hear that 19. :(

It sounds pretty awful if true - both the crime and the brevity of the sentence.

[CCTV]

Think it's one of the areas where the public is largely in agreement and believes sentencing is a joke. Especially around home invasion, sex crimes, violent assaults and murders/manslaughter.
Seems we've gone for the interests of offenders over victims. While mental health reports are merely another area for diminished personal responsibility in many cases.

Lad I worked with was on a door that opened from the inside only. 2 lads tried to get in to a gig and he explained he couldn't open the door from the outside. Thought they were cool about it and heading off. Got stabbed 13 times in the torso and gut, lucky not to be killed there and then. The fella who stabbed him served less than 18 months.
Thats the example I'm willing to talk about.

People might be in disagreement about the death penalty. But I suspect we might see it return. Few years in prison for reform.

At Bali in Germany do the still have special sentencing for extreme crimes. Like you serve 25 years in maximum security prison and the remainder of your life in a nicer prison ?

Making people serve the vast majority of their sentence for violent crimes wouldn't go amiss either imo

[stevie harkness]

Prison sentencing is a farce, and unjust, but prison doesn't work anyway. And we've run out of islands for penal colonies, and outer space isn't an option.

Where does the concept of punishment come from anyway? I suspect it's so ingrained in us from before we can remember that we don't even question it. Our society was founded on old testament religion and it still hasn't recovered from that yet. Of course there is punishment in the animal kingdom, sometimes to the death, but humans seem more vindictive and use it as a form of revenge. They feel hurt so they want the criminal hurt too. What's best for society?

Lao Tzu said that every country is just made up of homes so if we govern each home correctly then the country is sorted. But we've got it the other way round. Community and family is the key to so much crime prevention, a fact that is lost on recent governments.

[redebreck]

Lao Tzu said that every country is just made up of homes so if we govern each home correctly then the country is sorted. But we've got it the other way round. Community and family is the key to so much crime prevention, a fact that is lost on recent governments.

I think that is spot on.
So many "broken" homes today.

[Nineteenx]

Community and family is the key to so much crime prevention, a fact that is lost on recent governments.

Thank the Tories for our complete loss of it then and the fucking baby boomers for continually voting the cunts in with whopping majorities giving them carte blanche. Baby boomers are seriously pissing me off now, sold us all down the fucking river for years, now they're at it again with the Brexit business when it really won't have any affect on them, shouldn't even get to vote on something that won't have an affect on them, well it will, even more crime

[CCTV]

Thank the Tories for our complete loss of it then and the fucking baby boomers for continually voting the cunts in with whopping majorities giving them carte blanche. Baby boomers are seriously pissing me off now, sold us all down the fucking river for years, now they're at it again with the Brexit business when it really won't have any affect on them, shouldn't even get to vote on something that won't have an affect on them, well it will, even more crime

How very left wing of you, any other groups you'd take the right to vote off ? :D

[Nineteenx]

How very left wing of you, any other groups you'd take the right to vote off ? :D

:D Lol you can't take the vote off anyone, not that it stopped Thatcher trying to with her attempted no vote for none poll tax payers policy while coincidentally setting poll tax ridiculously high in non Tory voting areas.

I still can't believe people make any political decision based off MSM coverage, I remember 'the London poll tax riots' reporting, when Thatch sent mounted police wading into marchers, like she had done in the miners strikes. I'd actually been on the poll tax protest march, police just waded into people peacefully marching, there was all this MSM coverage of 'violent protesters' carrying batons, batons being the 2 x 1 pieces of wood from the placards they'd been carrying that had got damaged during the police brutality

[CCTV]

:D Lol you can't take the vote off anyone, not that it stopped Thatcher trying to with her attempted no vote for none poll tax payers policy while coincidentally setting poll tax ridiculously high in non Tory voting areas.

I still can't believe people make any political decision based off MSM coverage, I remember 'the London poll tax riots' reporting, when Thatch sent mounted police wading into marchers, like she had done in the miners strikes. I'd actually been on the poll tax protest march, police just waded into people peacefully marching, there was all this MSM coverage of 'violent protesters' carrying batons, batons being the 2 x 1 pieces of wood from the placards they'd been carrying that had got damaged during the police brutality

From the other thread somewhat, fake news only upsets people cause trump has cornered the term, faaake neeeews.
Otherwise there's be very little disagreement with the phrase. Generally the media ranks lowest in terms of being trusted.

It's one of the bizarre elements of the Brexit vote and the claims about being mislead by politicians and the media. A tiny minority of people trust either so what they say is of little importance to society in general and why there are such crisis across the western world.

People tend to believe what is in line with their gut feeling. Gut feelings or intuition isn't a bad basis for deciding imo generally.

[Nineteenx]

From the other thread somewhat, fake news only upsets people cause trump has cornered the term, faaake neeeews.
Otherwise there's be very little disagreement with the phrase. Generally the media ranks lowest in terms of being trusted.

It's one of the bizarre elements of the Brexit vote and the claims about being mislead by politicians and the media. A tiny minority of people trust either so what they say is of little importance to society in general and why there are such crisis across the western world.

People tend to believe what is in line with their gut feeling. Gut feelings or intuition isn't a bad basis for deciding imo generally.

Have to disagree, a lot of people are sadly led by it, the 'drip feed' of numerous sources continually driving the same agenda gives a lot of people the 'they can't all be wrong' mentality and subconsiously it goes in on some level.

There are lots of myths perpetuated by the media that people happily trot out:

Corbyn is a communist - Socialism in the form of the state trying to level the playing field to support the less well off and to try and develop greater community spirit and togetherness, the things that once made Britain great is not communism and as pointed out in this thread by others, they're many of the aspects that help reduce crime, because a greater percentage of people have a chance, are supported by the Government and their community and aren't so desperate. It's trotted out as communisim because doing those things affects the wealth of the wealthy, most of whom have incredible influence in the media "Never believe the wealthy will permit you to vote away their wealth"

Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser - Hmmm, let's see, insisted on dialogue being the way to end the troubles in Northern Ireland, was labelled 'a supporter of terrorism' 'a friend of the iRA' oh wait a minute, the Northern Ireland conflict was resolved through dialogue, only Blair achieved it by giving far too many people 'free passes' from facing justice for their atrocities that Corbyn wouldn't have.

Corbyn is an anti-semite - The latest angle of attack from the Blair disciples in the party, they've tried practically everything else, I'm yet to see any concrete evidence of this alleged anti-semitism in the Labour party, the media keep trotting it out, where's the evidence? None has been forthcoming. I think there's a lot of people from all areas of the spectrum who got involved with Labour under Blair who perhaps are claiming discrimination as a lot of people don't agree with or want their Blairite policies in the party anymore. Oh wait, apparently pointing out that Israel are hugely guilty of continual and historic atrocities against the Palestinians is anti-semitism. Trying to democratically unseat a council member or leader whose politics aren't in tune with how the party is trying to move forward and who is obstructive and destructive to progress, who is coincidentally Jewish is anti-semitism. Suggesting an MP who has continually tried to undermine the party and it's leader through leaked or made up stories to the media is working hand in hand with the right wing media is apparently anti-semetic because one of the papers happened to be the telegraph :eek:

Of course it's in no way discriminatory to picture a party leader known to be Jewish taking a very uncomfortable bite from a bacon sandwich and publishing a half page photo of it accompanied by lots of absolute guff about him not being one of us, not being like us, not understanding us, never being capable of understanding us, during a general election campaign, that's not antisemitic at all is it?

[Nineteenx]

THIS is what antisemitism looks like

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Miliband_bacon_sandwich_photograph

[stevie harkness]

Extending the idea that a country is simply made up of millions of homes, and if each home is well governed then it leads to a well run country... It baffles me that so many people vote Tory when most people in this country come from homes, from families, that are run along the lines of "contribute according to your ability and receive according to your needs" - People believe in that within their own homes but beyond that...

[Nineteenx]

Extending the idea that a country is simply made up of millions of homes, and if each home is well governed then it leads to a well run country... It baffles me that so many people vote Tory when most people in this country come from homes, from families, that are run along the lines of "contribute according to your ability and receive according to your needs" - People believe in that within their own homes but beyond that...

It's not baffling why people vote Tory, a lot of it has to do with their homes, the UK desperately needs council houses and affordable housing, it's a huge part of what's gone wrong with a once Great Britain and a huge reason so many successive governments haven't addressed the issue (the Tories deliberately haven't because as existing home owners see their house values rise it strengthens their position) is that for a hell of a lot of people who own their homes don't want the much needed council and affordable homes built, because it will affect the values of their properties.

One of THE most common planning application objections against affordable housing projects (never mind council houses) for several years has been that it will adversely affect the value of existing homes, it's funny that so many people throw that objection in because it's not a valid one anyway, but it shows exactly how people think and it's all the product of the baby boomers selling us down the river and continually voting in a Tory government who sold thousands of council homes for votes without replacing them and then removed housing prices from the inflation register.

The Tory Reganomics have over a long period of time created a UK of utterly selfish twats who like the majority of Mp's have no interest in voting for what's best for the country but are only interested in their own interests and ironically pretty much everything that's wrong with the UK and all the other problems they moan about can be traced back to the great Tory housing scam

[Nineteenx]

The equation is simple

(A) Removal of/lack of social housing means more people having to rent privately escalating house prices

(B) Escalating house prices means a large demographic of people can't afford to buy them, especially when they have escalated massively as a result of (A) and have their escalation in price has been removed from inflation meaning that year on year that large demographic of people have been effectively taking a massive pay cut and the prices are rising further and further beyond their reach

(C) Because of (A) and (B) Landlord's unchecked and unrestricted have been able to continually hike rental prices well above inflation (inflation well below actual inflation after the removal of house prices) and use the profits to continue to buy more houses and can afford to pay more for them as an investment ahead of would be first time buyers, further escalating the problems

(D) (A) (B) and (C) contribute massively to people who own their own homes or portfolios of houses they rent/are attempting to build their mini empire from strongly opposing any building of council or affordable housing that might affect the sale or rental value of their homes and that greatly influences their decision making when voting

In some areas all of the above has played a huge part in destroying local business and industry, especially fishing, because of the above Reganomics many working class people of the large demographic were unable to buy or afford homes that became available in their local area, those homes instead being bought for rent or as second homes escalating the issue further and creating a new issue that many people who bought those homes as second homes started to buy boats which they kept in the area for when they holidayed at their second home which hugely escalated the cost of moorings, another massive blow for local, already struggling fishing industries

[CCTV]

Prison sentencing is a farce, and unjust, but prison doesn't work anyway. And we've run out of islands for penal colonies, and outer space isn't an option.

Where does the concept of punishment come from anyway? I suspect it's so ingrained in us from before we can remember that we don't even question it. Our society was founded on old testament religion and it still hasn't recovered from that yet. Of course there is punishment in the animal kingdom, sometimes to the death, but humans seem more vindictive and use it as a form of revenge. They feel hurt so they want the criminal hurt too. What's best for society?

Lao Tzu said that every country is just made up of homes so if we govern each home correctly then the country is sorted. But we've got it the other way round. Community and family is the key to so much crime prevention, a fact that is lost on recent governments.

These are complex areas and heres my take.

Punishment is entirely natural. It's part of the developmental learning in life and essentially innate. Nature is punishing and offers chances to thrive.

Those who get death penalties have a 0% rate of reoffending. Those who get temporary release or serve their time are capable of reoffending. Its not even unknown for chemically castrated rapists to brutally reoffend, never mind uncastrated.
So the argument can be made for the protection of future possible or likely victims also. The counter point is the opportunity for redemption and reform.

What's best for society is somewhat unclear. The new testament attitude if were using a religious metaphor to forgive say is linked with lower crime rates but that is somewhat contentious and malleable.

Family, community and the wider society are important factors. But essentially it boils down to the individual and their ability to act independently from their family, community and society. Many people had far tougher lives and been victims of abuse and not acted inappropriately. While others who had it all in that sense act appallingly.

Some media excerpts from a few pieces on the UK, death penalty and murder.
During 1964 there were 296 murders in England and Wales, including the murder for which Evans and Allen were hanged. When the gallows were mothballed in 1965 there were 325 murders.
It’s true that annual homicide rates then rose for the next quarter of a century, reaching a peak of more than 1,000 in 2002 (when 172 murders were attributed to Harold Shipman alone), but since then they have fallen back precipitously and homicides are now at their lowest level in about 30 years. The overall population has, of course, increased significantly in that time......
The murder rate in England and Wales has fallen to its lowest level in 20 years, with 648 homicides recorded in 2008/09 – 136 fewer than the year before. Home Office statisticians said the drop was "not a blip". Annual crime figures published yesterday show the number of murders and manslaughters and infanticides fell to a level not seen since 1989.

In 1965 54.35 million - 325 homicides
In 2009 62.26 million - 648 homicides

https://fullfact.org/news/has-murder-rate-doubled-hanging-was-abolished/
This looks at the topic with a bit more depth and perspective, however the outcome supports the idea that since abolition the murder rate has increased significantly.
As with the lack of clarity I proposed earlier this too is not a closed case even in this example. There are other factors at play. Though in some sense perhaps youd expect a higher survival rate in these more modern times with the advancement of medicial services.

Murder is a high measure for violence in society.
Increased Inequality, decreased empathy and trust good predictors of violence as i understand it. And all 3 going the wrong way.

Now for family and community, much more controversial and sprawling long form.

[CCTV]

Not sure if I could post that post, I posted it, but must read forum rules.

[Nineteenx]

Have murders actually fallen or have people just got a lot better at hiding the evidence and bodies? :eek:

I watch a fair bit of ID and CID some crazy murders on there, quite a lot that easily could have been gotten away with but for silly mistakes

[stevie harkness]

Get rid of them or rehabilitate them.

Interesting take on prison life in Norway

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-48885846

[CCTV]

Have murders actually fallen or have people just got a lot better at hiding the evidence and bodies? :eek:

I watch a fair bit of ID and CID some crazy murders on there, quite a lot that easily could have been gotten away with but for silly mistakes

In recent years they have fallen from a peak but on the rise again in more recent years. The full fact org brings it up to recent enough times iirc.

[redebreck]

In recent years they have fallen from a peak but on the rise again in more recent years. The full fact org brings it up to recent enough times iirc.

Personally I believe the health of society and the gap between rich and poor are two major factors affecting crime.
In today's society I don't think there are the opportunities available for self-enrichment.
The UK has had the majority of its heavy industry wiped out - mining, steel production, shipbuilding. These industries employed thousands, maybe even millions of the population. What are the biggest industries remaining in the UK, capable of employing such a large number of the population?
The government/establishment has appeared to substantially reduce the police force and their capability to prevent and deal with crime.
Another factor to be considered is the number of people living into old age - these people have their government pensions and/or take up hospital beds. This causes a drain on the economy and is probably the reason why tax rates are so high and people are expected to continue working to a higher age. Not forgetting the massed ranks of civil servants (including politicians?) with their huge index-linked pensions.

[CCTV]

Personally I believe the health of society and the gap between rich and poor are two major factors affecting crime.
In today's society I don't think there are the opportunities available for self-enrichment.
The UK has had the majority of its heavy industry wiped out - mining, steel production, shipbuilding. These industries employed thousands, maybe even millions of the population. What are the biggest industries remaining in the UK, capable of employing such a large number of the population?
The government/establishment has appeared to substantially reduce the police force and their capability to prevent and deal with crime.
Another factor to be considered is the number of people living into old age - these people have their government pensions and/or take up hospital beds. This causes a drain on the economy and is probably the reason why tax rates are so high and people are expected to continue working to a higher age. Not forgetting the massed ranks of civil servants (including politicians?) with their huge index-linked pensions.

Globalisation and economic policy have played a part. Even with older people and their displaced children its an issue in elderly people going into homes.
I also think the post ww2 reaction that developed later was and is a little misguided. Say the actual nazi's were about today and you rallied against them, youd probably have a good section of the society call you a xenophobe or some shit.

In terms of laws i think the removal of the death penalty was a mistake and I'd also contend that abortion under choice say is another mistake.
Chappelle hits on a culture that develops where choice to abort is prevalent. I think this culture plays a part in the increased number of abortions and in the increased number of single parent families where we know the statistical disadvantage such children have to deal with. The pressure to abort and the expectation leads to changes in behaviours and so we see men not willing to be tied down by her selfishness and reverence for a clump of cells, when she could easily do it if she liked. Yet many victims of r@?€ refuse the choice as they see it as another trauma theyd have to suffer from the crime.
Think the rise in materialism is also tied into the abortion issue whereby potential children are weighed up against a cost/benefit analysis and as such we see the birth rate collapse. In my limited experience most women aborted due to Male threat, pressure or declared absent father status. Other factors play their part too.

MoudH-RPnEE