The sad demise of Tot Ten Ham Hotspur

[dicko1969]

Big drop off since challenging 2015 to 2019.

[southernboy]

They’re a team that I’ve got an irrational dislike for, but I have to say disallowing their first goal today was absolutely ridiculous. The guy was fouled, then had the balls kicked against him and was judged to have handled it. Maybe I’m missing something.

[3underpar]

They’re a team that I’ve got an irrational dislike for, but I have to say disallowing their first goal today was absolutely ridiculous. The guy was fouled, then had the balls kicked against him and was judged to have handled it. Maybe I’m missing something.

Yeah the new handball of any kind rule is just bad. They got screwed over there. Credit to Sheffield for exposing just how bad Sours defense is. Spurs are easily the most disappointing side of the season. I’m ok with that lol.

[Insidious]

They were wobbling on their feet in the run-up to the 18/19 Champion's League Final (their European run masked some developing issues) and we dealt them a knockout blow from which they simply have not recovered.

It's great.

[CCTV]

Deserved demise, cheating & diving.

Like manu in ways, under fergie failed to buy in advance and after fergie missed with bigger transfers

[Insidious]

Ndombele wants to leave allegedly.

Just thinking, of all the Managers I wouldn't want to get through a difficult spell, Mourinho is high on the list.

They have the stadium issue, they have taken out an enormous loan and they look unlikely to attain Champion's League football.

The truly beautiful part? They probably can't financially afford to pay Mourinho off to leave, so they are stuck in this situation for a time yet.

[teesred]

The biggest case of "missed the boat" ever. They should have spent after the Leicester title,they were primed for a golden spell and fucked it right up by being hesitant and overall tight in the transfer market.
I've said for years now their team is missing that stardust. Aside from Kane theres no world class players. Maybe Alderweireld but probably not now, they dont have that difference maker in the side and their chance has well and truly gone.
Huge mistake bringing in Mourinho too. He was not the man they needed.
Last season they were more desperate than we were for that CL. It would have hurt us but Klopp would still be there and we'd have dusted ourselves off and got on with it. With Spurs you really felt it was all or nothing. Their fans must be devastated watching what's happening.

[reddownunder]

Didn't see their match but apparently they were awful and were lucky to escape from mighty Bournemouth with a point. Kane and Son are too good for them and I can see them handing in transfer requests before too long. Mourinho will be sacked before the end of next season too I think

[justme]

Levy is a moron. Hes trying to make Spurs financially sound, which Is a good plan. so hes cutting funds for transfers.Yet hes the highest paid executive in English football. how about he cuts his own wages as well??

[southernboy]

To be fair, they had one of the clearest penaltys denied very early on in the game. That said, they were pretty dreadful after that. Jose really doesn’t look like he gives a shit.

[dicko1969]

Deep down Mourinho is a Chelsea man.

Has he gone into Mu and Spurs with a plan ?

[justme]

Reminds me of the time Harry Redknapp went from Portsmouth to Southampton and the saints were relegated and then he retuned back to Portsmouth. Some guy came on 606 and called "arry" agent harry and that he deliberately got Southampton relegated.

[Insidious]

Deep down Mourinho is a Chelsea man.

Has he gone into Mu and Spurs with a plan ?

If the plan is Operation Destroy Rivals then I don't believe so whatsoever. He likes winning too much, but the game has changed and he lost something in Madrid.

If the plan was to flatter to deceive so as to get a bumper contract, meaning a club has to pay out his contract and thus he can give less than his all, then I could believe that - he absolutely rinsed United for money and yet still has a high-paying job. When he retires he will be beyond comfortable.

[Steveo]

I don’t want to jinx it but I think the fallout with Poch ( who I feared would stay and fulfil the potential ) and appointment of the self titled ‘Special One’ may have been the hammer blow ( or the bummer ) leading to the straw breaking the Camels’ back.

:D

Long term though - Levi has created the foundation for them to rise to very lofty heights. London based - with a huge turn over generation potential ( stadium ) and media darlings, they are well placed to capitalise should the next Poch be unearthed.

Long may their forlorn situation continue..

[vin]

The biggest case of "missed the boat" ever. They should have spent after the Leicester title,they were primed for a golden spell and fucked it right up by being hesitant and overall tight in the transfer market.
I've said for years now their team is missing that stardust. Aside from Kane theres no world class players. Maybe Alderweireld but probably not now, they dont have that difference maker in the side and their chance has well and truly gone.
Huge mistake bringing in Mourinho too. He was not the man they needed.
Last season they were more desperate than we were for that CL. It would have hurt us but Klopp would still be there and we'd have dusted ourselves off and got on with it. With Spurs you really felt it was all or nothing. Their fans must be devastated watching what's happening.

After we lost to Madrid, Klopp made a statement "this isn't the end of the journey, it's the beginning". When we beat Tottenham you felt that it was the end of the journey for them.

[teesred]

After we lost to Madrid, Klopp made a statement "this isn't the end of the journey, it's the beginning". When we beat Tottenham you felt that it was the end of the journey for them.

Totally. In truth they probably never got over not winning the league title the season Leicester won it. It was there for the taking and even after that the post season was their chance to go all out. They were ahead of Utd,Arsenal,Chelsea and Liverpool. Only City were going to compete if they'd got it right. They've paid the price for it now as it's a long way back for them.

[Balinkay]

Saw the last 20-ish minutes (so from the 82' onwards). They were poo. The Cherries should have won.

[Kev0909]

If kane was that good, he'd help carry the team and they'd be doing better, I say they have better than what gerrard did around him at least a few seasons.

He's over-rated good player yes, but greenwood will take his place in englands starting 11.

Never really seen spurs as a "big club" every now and again they show some promise, and some hope of actually going somewhere, all for it to come crashing down.

Will be interesting to see leeds in the prem next season, that'll be a juicy fixture. (off-topic but not worth making a new thread about)

[justme]

Kane is a world class when it comes to scoring goals. I don't think hes the best technically. So a lot of attacks break down on the counter..

[dicko1969]

If kane was that good, he'd help carry the team and they'd be doing better, I say they have better than what gerrard did around him at least a few seasons.

He's over-rated good player yes, but greenwood will take his place in englands starting 11.

Never really seen spurs as a "big club" every now and again they show some promise, and some hope of actually going somewhere, all for it to come crashing down.

Will be interesting to see leeds in the prem next season, that'll be a juicy fixture. (off-topic but not worth making a new thread about)

Traditionally
Arsenal (70s double / 2000s)
Spurs (60s double)
Chelsea ( nothing til 2005)

Then
West Ham. QPR .
Fulham. Charlton

Chelsea today are probably the number 1 club in London

Sours and Arsenal are in a mess

West Ham are West Ham.

[dicko1969]

If kane was that good, he'd help carry the team and they'd be doing better, I say they have better than what gerrard did around him at least a few seasons.

He's over-rated good player yes, but greenwood will take his place in englands starting 11.

Never really seen spurs as a "big club" every now and again they show some promise, and some hope of actually going somewhere, all for it to come crashing down.

Will be interesting to see leeds in the prem next season, that'll be a juicy fixture. (off-topic but not worth making a new thread about)

Greenwood looks sensational
2 footed too
Great goal scorer
I hope Brewster can get to the same levels.

[stevie harkness]

"How long it took for Jurgen [Klopp] and Liverpool?" said Mourinho.

"Four years, four seasons. Buying one of the best goalkeepers in the world, buying one of the best centre-backs in the world and so on and so on and so on.

"I'm focused on my three-year contract. I believe that in my three-year contract we can win trophies. If we don't, but the club does it in the new era if I stay here only for three years, I will be happy with that."

[justme]

He wont be allowed to stay 3 years if his team continue to play turgid football and they will and they wont win many games either.

[Insidious]

He wont be allowed to stay 3 years if his team continue to play turgid football and they will and they wont win many games either.

Paying him off might be too expensive to be fair.

[justme]

Paying him off might be too expensive to be fair.

Them being out of Europe for 3 years,May cost more than his contract.

[Insidious]

Them being out of Europe for 3 years,May cost more than his contract.

Oh 100%.

Imagine the new Manager can't get them back in either! Could be crippled.

Chuckle.

[justme]

Oh 100%.

Imagine the new Manager can't get them back in either! Could be crippled.

Chuckle.
I feel sorry for the genuine Tottenham fans. I don't really have a issue with Spurs. Just the likes of Kane who seems to dislike us. Little shit

[stevie harkness]

I could see Spurs picking up a league cup in the next three years if they do keep Mourinho. That would be massive for them.

[Insidious]

Mourinho with Spurs in the League - last 24 matches.

W - 12
D - 5
L - 7
Pts - 41

Pochettino with Spurs in the League - his last 24 matches.

W - 6
D - 7
L - 11
Pts - 25

They both had pretty much the same players to work with and teams around them are improving. The job looks huge.

[justme]

We just need them good enough to get results against the other top 6,apart from us and hes done his job.

[Insidious]

We just need them good enough to get results against the other top 6,apart from us and hes done his job.

Absolutely that.

Don't foresee them in the Top Four for a while.

[Insidious]

Absolutely that.

Don't foresee them in the Top Four for a while.

Interesting to see how close/far they end up actually.

Have reached the League Cup, have reached the FA Cup quarters, will likely be in the last-16 of the Europa League.

Winning their game in hand (can they?) would put them very close to the Champion's League spots.

Could end up winning a Cup or even a Double.

Could finish their season trophiless and in the Europa League spots.

Very fine margins either way.

[Nineteenx]

Mourinho stops his teams playing football, as much as the media and pundits were lauding them early season a fair few also commented many of theiir players were used to and enjoyed playing football and that while they were happy playing Jose's way while winning that might change were they to hit a rocky patch

[Taksin]

We need two other teams to finish above Man U. I don’t mind which two it is - even Everton would be fine.

[fiordearg]

Tottenham looked down on us for a while and won nothing.

[reddownunder]

I said it the day he got the job that Mourinho was completely the wrong choice for Spurs. He's a dinosaur that's out of touch with modern football. Still if a league cup is seen as success then Levy might have what he wants. I doubt it will keep Kane happy though

[dicko1969]

Sad isnt it haha

Spurs playing the low possession counter attack football.

Their mindset is such that when they have to take the game v a lesser team they arent used to that.

It suits Son ... his counter attack style.

But really Spurs should be doing better than what Mourinho offers.

[Nineteenx]

They play a Chelsea team revitalised by Tuchel's appointment tomorrow too

[Insidious]

We need two other teams to finish above Man U. I don’t mind which two it is - even Everton would be fine.

They certainly don't look like missing out on Top Four at the moment, somewhat annoyingly.

[Joetan991]

When Ferrari team manage by Bus manager.

[Insidious]

Them being out of Europe for 3 years,May cost more than his contract.

Well, they did indeed get rid.

So their Gross debt totals £831m. Also -

- There's £140 owed in transfer debt.
- There's £96m in tax debt.
- There's £9m in trade creditors.
- There's £102m in other creditors.

Total of....£1.177bn. Yep, Billion.

Mourinho's compensation too. Hiring a new Manager won't be cheap either. If ever a club needed Champion's League football.....

Son and Kane would fetch decent money to eat into a little bit of that but that's not good reading if you're a Spurs fan.

So does the Club get sold? Or is the stadium the be-all-and-end-all plan to recoup the funds further down the line if they can get Champion's League football for a few seasons in a row and firmly establish themselves?

[Steveo]

I was well aware they were aiming for the the big league - despite others seemingly being blind to it but even I was totally shocked that they made it into the 6 for the ESL..

They have won literally nothing in 2 generations..!

Were they and Atletico both in purely because of their recent stadium builds?? Can't be just that surely?

Just doesn't add up unless Levy has some big mates in the US world of finance and sport.

[teesred]

Atletico have won La Liga under Simeone haven't they? Won the UEFA/Europa twice too in the last ten years or so I think.
More than Arsenal and Spurs together. If this had been 2 years ago fans would question our inclusion if its going on recent success.
Won La Liga in 2014. I thought they had won 2 titles in recent years.

[Steveo]

True - but we have been the most successful club in the land for eons.. United took it off us for a few years but after us there was nobody close.

Atletico have won a few in the last few years - comparable with Atletico Bilbao historically.

Wouldn’t consider them one of the elite - but granted far far more than Spurs.


Arsenal for sure historically a massive club with fairly recent successes too - Chelsea and City being perennial winners for more than a decade now... BUT BUT
How did Spurs get on that list??

Spurs...?

I would love to see Levy interviewed and watch to see if he could maintain a straight faced answer.

It stinks already but the inclusion of Spurs for me is just batshit crazy..

[reddownunder]

Nagelsmann has been confirmed as Bayern manager for next season. Oh well there's always Scott Parker for Spurs haha

[Steveo]

Surely wouldn’t do worse than Jose did? Think he has burned all bridges in the UK now.

[reddownunder]

I doubt the thought of appointing Parker will fill Kane and co with confidence that trophies are just around the corner

[Insidious]

Nagelsmann has been confirmed as Bayern manager for next season. Oh well there's always Scott Parker for Spurs haha

Bit disappointed at that.

He's one of a small number I'd quite like to see here one day and in terms of managerial development I can't help but feel he has taken a job as big as that on just a couple of seasons too early.

Time will tell.

[Crimson Dynasty]

hhhmm...

It seems like we've learned nothing from these kinds of threads.

Just a.....mild observation here...., if you'll indulge me, for a bit.....

They've dropped off since challenging between 2015-2019,....and yet,.....
.... we've dropped off how much exactly, ...since being champions only just last year and champions' league winners the year before?

We're not even qualifying for the Champion's league next season (unless UEFA pull some shenanigans,...and why would they be doing us any favours after last week's ESL fiasco?)

So I guess the real question is who's dropped off much farther (and harder), and are they really in a place to be pointing the finger and laughing at others?

Not that long ago there was a similar thread about the Scum, and how we should all laugh at their demise or summat.
They're now sitting second and came closest to challenging or stopping City from rolling into another title this year.
And they'll be playing weekday footie next season on Tuesday and Wednesday and not Thursday.

I'm just saying,.,.

[skyebo]

If Scott Parker is in the frame for the Spurs job they really are on a downward spiral. May as well stick with Ryan Mason.

[Steveo]

Totally agree Crimson. Tempting fate is a fools game and more often than not it ends up with plenty of soggy egg on the face.


Even forgetting the ‘demise of Manchester United’ and this thread - a few were discussing how brilliant our data analysts were in sourcing players who almost never get injured. And how we had - 3 or 4 players for every position. I remember cringing and hoping it never got traction.

This was all ruthlessly exposed as total fantasy by the time Joe Gomez was Injured on international duty.

I know it sounds superstitious but it really isn’t - it is something else entirely... though I cannot put my finger on it.... whatever it is - wisdom seems to suggest it’s best to keep your powder dry.

[Crimson Dynasty]

Totally agree Crimson. Tempting fate is a fools game and more often than not it ends up with plenty of soggy egg on the face.

......

I know it sounds superstitious but it really isn’t - it is something else entirely... though I cannot put my finger on it.... whatever it is - wisdom seems to suggest it’s best to keep your powder dry.



I'm not (normally) a superstitious type of person myself.
Although you'd imagine or think that being a fan of Liverpool Football Club - particularly if you're old enough to have been one during their (ACTUAL) Golden era and seen them win everything under the sun, and then had to suffer through 30 years of pain and hurt before we got to the mountaintop again - that it might engender some level of respect for the vagaries of....how shall we say,...."fate" and the fickleness of success.

More than anyone else, you'd expect LFC fans to know better that you never stay on top forever (unless these are young fans we're talking about, or glory-hunters who only became reds in 2005), o know better than to mock others demises (even that of our most hated rivals, especially given that they're not that far removed from their own golden age).

And yes, you could argue that there's a certain aspect about tempting fate when you do these sorts of things, and while most may not be the superstitious type, I would still ask, "....but why risk it, regardless?"

The problem here is,... we've already hit bottom (again)...so it's not like we need the proof that things can go tits up on your just when you think you'll be riding the clouds forever.

I get that mocking the fans of other clubs and particularly hated rivals and even not so "rivals" rivals like the Spuds, is always good for a laugh.
I get that that.

I'm just saying.....

A little perspective and acknowledgment for were we currently are at, might be useful.
On paper, they still have a better (And deeper) squad than ours - especially if they can replace Kane with some younger promising forwards that can jell nicely with Son (a hard ask. I know).
And add in a proven tactician (like an Alllegri or some like) and who knows?.....just take a look at Chelsea.
How long ago were we making Fat Frank jokes and talking about their own seeming state of disrepair?
And yet today they're playing in the Champions' League semis after effectively having locked up their top 4 spot last weekend, and all while having one of the most promising (and youngest with the biggest upside) squads AND a proven Champions' League finalist manager who's won titles in deferent leagues.


That's how quickly you can go from riding high to eating dirt (like ourselves or the Spuds). Or vice versa (like Chelsea).

Even putting aside the whole "fate" and "superstitious" angle or the quick changing of fortunes potential of it all, I just felt the 'Demise of Manchester" thread was a tad classless for a club that ought to be acting like we've been there before. And this one - despite our change in fortunes since then - isn't that much better, IMHO.

[teesred]

....or were we entitled to indulge ourselves a bit after years of other fans laughing at us? Especially the Manchester clubs.
Losing to Sevilla and Madrid,Gerrard slip, the Palace game, 2009 season etc.
All football fans are fickle, that's the nature of it and that's why it's fun. It' has its ups and it has its downs.
You ride out both in different ways.

[Nineteenx]

Totally agree Crimson. Tempting fate is a fools game and more often than not it ends up with plenty of soggy egg on the face.


Even forgetting the ‘demise of Manchester United’ and this thread - a few were discussing how brilliant our data analysts were in sourcing players who almost never get injured. And how we had - 3 or 4 players for every position. I remember cringing and hoping it never got traction.

This was all ruthlessly exposed as total fantasy by the time Joe Gomez was Injured on international duty.

I know it sounds superstitious but it really isn’t - it is something else entirely... though I cannot put my finger on it.... whatever it is - wisdom seems to suggest it’s best to keep your powder dry.

The filthy have benefitted this season from having a large squad of mostly fully fit players throughout and not having the pressure from their own fans, let's just see how they get on next season eh, I've watched quite a few of their games, they're really not a good side, they're not a side worthy of second place in the Premier League based on the levels of the sides that have occupied that position of late, they remain very average

[Crimson Dynasty]

....or were we entitled to indulge ourselves a bit after years of other fans laughing at us? Especially the Manchester clubs.
Losing to Sevilla and Madrid,Gerrard slip, the Palace game, 2009 season etc.
All football fans are fickle, that's the nature of it and that's why it's fun. It' has its ups and it has its downs.
You ride out both in different ways.

So the Manchester clubs (and their scummy fans) are our role models now?
Good to know.

And also, other clubs' fans were laughing at us during out down years largely because whether we want to admit it or not, ...we were a bit insufferable as a fanbase when we were winning all the time.
It comes with the territory. I know.

Where's the justification or joy in mocking the Spuds - a club who really haven't won that much in their history, and who along with the deluded fans' have as their biggest sin the fact that they are largely delusional about their status and greatness as a club and the immenseness of their supposed legacy.

I think a bigger statement on the distance and breadth of the gulf between us as clubs (despite our current state) came in the Champions' League final we beat them in - a tournament and stage in which they were TRULY tourists, and in which their fans knew they would likely never again in their lifetimes get to - and by us doing so by barely getting out of second gear in that game and winning our 6th title as a club in the most ho-hum fashion possibly imaginable.

[teesred]

I never said they were good role models. Their fans will call us Scummy.
Just making the point it's swings and roundabouts with being a football fan. All fans do it ,it's part of the fun of it all. I don't see it as anything to get so serious about.
I agree fully about us being insuferable and thats why we get it with both barrels but what fans of any reasonably sized club aren't when they have some success?
Threads like this are a bit daft I guess but each to their own.

[Insidious]

Not that long ago there was a similar thread about the Scum, and how we should all laugh at their demise or summat.
They're now sitting second and came closest to challenging or stopping City from rolling into another title this year.
And they'll be playing weekday footie next season on Tuesday and Wednesday and not Thursday.

I'm just saying,.,.

The thing is though, irrespective of the fact they're not in an awful position this season and will be in the Champion's League this year, they (Man United) have had an enormous demise, relatively speaking, irrespective of us.

It's entirely fair, plausible and possible to discuss this as fans of the game without always wearing our Liverpool hat and stressing about our position.

United won the League 13 times in 18 seasons. Now they haven't won it since 12/13. The 10-year anniversary looks entirely possible when you look at City and Chelsea right now. Even the 8 seasons without a title would have seen you laughed out of the room if you predicted it - despite finishing second under Mourinho (and probably this season) have they even had a legitimate challenge?

Equally, look at Europe. They had a spell there where they reached three Champion's League finals in 4 years - they last won Big Ears in 2008. That's 13 years ago come the end of the season.

Are they showing signs of some recovery? Sure they are. We can acknowledge that and begrudge it. But big picture, have they had a serious demise? They absolutely have - and I genuinely don't see an issue discussing it, other than a mix of the fact we're rivals and some folks are superstitious.

Look at us going into next season - we'll probably be in the Europa League or could even miss out. If a Spurs/Arsenal/Everton forum had a "demise of Liverpool football club" thread would their supporters be saying "glass houses, shouldn't throw stones?" - I'd like to hope not.

Besides - it wouldn't take the big picture into account anyway. We face some rebuilding work, for sure. But does anyone look at the squad we have to work with and think the extent of the job at hand over the coming couple of seasons is way bigger than the one Klopp took on? Really?

[reddownunder]

I'm under no illusions and I fear we could be screwed when Klopp leaves in 3 years (assuming he'll see out his contract). I hope between now and then he can win a couple more trophies and leave a decent squad for the next manager to inherit. Hopefully Bayern will be up for a swap deal in 2024. Nagelsmann has signed a contract until 2026 but managers seem to get bored pretty quickly at Bayern

[Crimson Dynasty]

I'm under no illusions and I fear we could be screwed when Klopp leaves in 3 years (assuming he'll see out his contract). I hope between now and then he can win a couple more trophies and leave a decent squad for the next manager to inherit. Hopefully Bayern will be up for a swap deal in 2024. Nagelsmann has signed a contract until 2026 but managers seem to get bored pretty quickly at Bayern

It's less a case of they get bored, than they usually can't handle the drama and the perpetual "too many cooks-ism" from upper management.

They're usually referred to as "Bayern Hollywood" and definitely not in a complimentary way and in light of all the drama that ensues with all the tinkering/bickering from the suits, that the managers then have to deal with.

Flick couldn't handle it and had had enough.
Nagelsmann is young, though, and he might have the stamina to stick it out for some time.
If he does win some trophies and titles there (not a hard ask considering what a one-horse league that league is), I see him wanting to go ply his trade elsewhere in Europe, and hopefully we'll still be in the frame for consideration.

[Insidious]

If he does win some trophies and titles there (not a hard ask considering what a one-horse league that league is), I see him wanting to go ply his trade elsewhere in Europe, and hopefully we'll still be in the frame for consideration.

We're in a much more fortunate position than most due to who we are. We will always appeal to someone - we're either successful (and thus desirable) or not very successful and in "sleeping Giant" mode, thus desirable to managers who want to turn things around, which is always good on a CV.

Klopp joined us when Toure, Skrtel, Lovren and Sakho were our centre-backs, with Moreno our main left-back, Lallana and Allen regulars in our midfield, Mignolet our keeper and Benteke our expensive striker.

We will be absolutely fine.

[Insidious]

Gattuso?!?!?!

[Kev0909]

Is it me or is spurs getting a manager fast becoming a comedy show?

Gennaro Gattuso interest ends as Tottenham's head coach search continues

Wonder if they get to the interview "kane wants to leave," you have 2 million also noone wants to be here, but come and join us???

Employ rafa and be done with it ffs

How many's that now? 4 at least

[Insidious]

It's a poisoned Chalice at the moment.

"Hi, yeah, our fans want Top Four but four clubs look well set to finish above us. Still, our fans want it - Kane is going and we keep our wages low and transfer income will be limited for a bit while we pay off this stadium that will cost the Earth - you keen on performing miracles?"

[fiordearg]

Looks like building big stadia has held back both Spurs and Arsenal
Incremental increases in capacity have served us and the scum better

[Steveo]

Is that really fair?

Trying be Uber fair to them - Arsenal have won 4 FA cups since 2014 ( chuckle ) but hadn’t won a bean for 20 years before Graham built them a very strong side to challenge us. He won 2 titles 89 and 91… before Wenger rocked up and changed the entire game in England. 1998 2002 and 2004 titles came in superb fashion before Jose and Fergie spoiled the party.

Then crucially in 2007 - a year after the Arse move to the Emirates ( almost unanimously still hailed a major triumph by Arsenal fans ) a certain US investor Stan Kroenke takes a 10% stake - changes the structure and hugely dilutes Wenger’s influence. They were never the same after that. By 2011 he owned 63% and since 2018 has owned the lot.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2012/oct/25/stan-kroenke-arsenal-ambition-agm


As for Spurs - well the paint isn’t even dry on a stadium that hasn’t seen fans for more than a year! Also - what have they won in the last 25 years to suddenly cite their stadium as a handicap…? . Spurs have spent more on players since the WHL rebuild - than we have BTW.


If we want to look at new stadiums and on the pitch success there are as many good examples as bad. For every Arsenal their is a Manchester City or a Leicester City or a Brighton. For every Atletico, Juventus or Bayern there is probably a West Ham - who were obviously so much better at Upton Park (NOT).. :D

Most stadium moves are intended to future proof a club, increase capacity, make life better for fans and crucially - for the money men - add more to turnover. The idea of the debt being a handicap is largely fictional.

Success on the pitch is not hugely affected by the stadium you play in. It’s the fans that exert that influence on games. If you have 58,000 Liverpool fans in WHL and Spurs have 3,000 - we will create a wall of noise that they will not like. A far far better scenario than playing in an empty Anfield.

Bricks and mortar have almost no influence.


https://www.theguardian.com/football/2012/oct/25/stan-kroenke-arsenal-ambition-agm

[Taksin]

The idea of the debt being a handicap is largely fictional



Until it causes bankruptcy

Not sure how you can use Man City and West Ham as examples. They were gifted their new, soulless stadiums by the local council.

Tottenham and Arsenal are the two examples of clubs who have dug deepest to finance extremely expensive stadiums. They have also stagnated in terms of progress, having both looked cutting edge at one point. Now they don’t look attractive to managers, which is a new state of affairs.

[Steveo]

Forgot second link was meant to be this

https://www.90min.com/posts/6334992-how-7-football-teams-fared-after-moving-into-their-new-stadiums


Explains a lot.

Painting a picture that building a new stadium leads to a demise - by exclusively Citing Arsenal and Spurs - ( who have barely moved in - is simply wrong - it’s completely wrong and ignorant to the facts.

Just take a look at the clubs that have benefitted, or stayed the same or risen sharply.

Brighton - Leicester City - Atletico Madrid - Juve - City ( and why are they off limits - because it doesn’t fit the bogus narrative ) - Bayern Munich and plenty of others besides like Brentford!

The facts are clear if you can extend your own ground big enough to make it work - it’s the best option - if you can’t - the next best option is to build a new one - as many have and will continue to do.

[scientificred]

Forgot second link was meant to be this

https://www.90min.com/posts/6334992-how-7-football-teams-fared-after-moving-into-their-new-stadiums


Explains a lot.

Painting a picture that building a new stadium leads to a demise - by exclusively Citing Arsenal and Spurs - ( who have barely moved in - is simply wrong - it’s completely wrong and ignorant to the facts.

Just take a look at the clubs that have benefitted, or stayed the same or risen sharply.

Brighton - Leicester City - Atletico Madrid - Juve - City ( and why are they off limits - because it doesn’t fit the bogus narrative ) - Bayern Munich and plenty of others besides like Brentford!

The facts are clear if you can extend your own ground big enough to make it work - it’s the best option - if you can’t - the next best option is to build a new one - as many have and will continue to do.
Could add Southampton and West Ham also.

[Taksin]

Forgot second link was meant to be this

https://www.90min.com/posts/6334992-how-7-football-teams-fared-after-moving-into-their-new-stadiums


Explains a lot.

Painting a picture that building a new stadium leads to a demise - by exclusively Citing Arsenal and Spurs - ( who have barely moved in - is simply wrong - it’s completely wrong and ignorant to the facts.

Just take a look at the clubs that have benefitted, or stayed the same or risen sharply.

Brighton - Leicester City - Atletico Madrid - Juve - City ( and why are they off limits - because it doesn’t fit the bogus narrative ) - Bayern Munich and plenty of others besides like Brentford!

The facts are clear if you can extend your own ground big enough to make it work - it’s the best option - if you can’t - the next best option is to build a new one - as many have and will continue to do.


It's not a bogus narrative. To say 'it's completely wrong and ignorant of the facts' is begging the question.

Again, your list of seven starts off with City and West Ham. Both of those teams inherited stadiums which were neither originally theirs nor their intended builds, nor properly financed by them. That's different to Arsenal and Tottenham.

Arsenal and Spurs were particularly hampered by paying London prices and they were also trying to build cutting edge stadiums, competing against each other (Spurs explicitly so, with outdoing Arsenal part of the architects' brief).As far as I know, Wembley may be the only stadium that cost more than those two stadiums (in the world). They are indeed cutting edge, but that came with a cost. What effects that cost has had is the part of the narrative in question.

As for not moving in, moving out was a part of Tottenham's problem. The year at Wembley was bad for their progress according to all commentators. The fact that Covid has hit them harder than everyone else is an unfortunate consequence of their planning - but it is still a consequence.

What you seem to be saying is a new stadium is obviously good, but there are many different ways of ending up somewhere new and the two London clubs (Brentford aside) did it with high levels of debt. That debt has affected their spending power. It has not increased their spending power. That has had its effects, and I'm glad we haven't had to endure them.

[Steveo]

So let’s discount City and West Ham even though both have moved from old decrepit stadia to new.

And let’s include Spurs despite the fact they are still on the site of WHL - AND reached their first European Cup final after WHL 2 was built - and judge them as being handicapped even though they haven’t won a bean in 25 years AND have spent more on players since than us.

Let’s also ignore the real issues that have blighted Arsenal and claim that all of their perceived woes - despite winning 4 FA Cups since 2014 - are down to a disastrous move to the Emirates.

Can we mention Brighton or Leicester City? How about Atletico Madrid? Or how about Bayern Munich, or Juventus..?

Are these also not allowed?

Claiming that a move to a new stadium is a prelude or cause of downfall is simply not true.

But feel free to argue the opposite.

And where do I “seem” to be saying that moving is good? I suggest you are trying to create an argument where none exists.

[Taksin]

I used to teach at a private college for a few years. While I was there they decided to move to new premises which were bigger and shinier and more expensive. In order to fund the move, they had to attract more students and therefore grow the teaching staff. And they had to charge more in fees to fund the move.

Within a year the college went into administration. It happened overnight - my friend was teaching on the Wednesday, only to find out the college had ceased to exist on the Monday.

That's an example of the pressures facing a business. The old college worked pretty well. many people were well educated, even though it was a bit run down and lacked some glamour. Now, they teach no students.

These are simple ideas and, in the competitive world of football, the decisions taken by the owners of clubs can have telling effects on the fortune of the club. No need to get wistful about how lovely the stadiums are, Steveo.

By the way, I notice you spend some time convicting Stan Kroenke for the misfortunes of Arsenal. I agree with the importance of his influence but then I always did say the owners are the most important determinants of success..

[Steveo]

Owners are not the most important factors to success - not a chance of it - we don’t on agree on this. I debunked that theory previously as you well know.

Drop it.

BUT Taksin they sure as shit can derail any club in a heart beat. If you handicap a club against its rivals even the best manager will struggle. Makes Fergie’s continued success at United after the Glazsrs came in all the more incredible:

[Taksin]

Please refer me to the place where you debunked the idea and perhaps I will drop it. Otherwise, it’s a free world and an interesting conversation. I’ll keep on enjoying picking it up, especially when you drop your guard and argue my case for me, Steveo.

[Steveo]

It seems to bore everyone when we have this discussion - as we did at length just a while back.

You know very well what discussion too about Rafa - Moore’s/Parry and Hicks/Gillett…

No need to go over old ground when we know we don’t agree.

Why not stick to the topic at hand - and while you are at it - for the second time.. where do I “seem” to be saying moving is good?

I am intrigued.

[Steveo]

Bit of a creep aren’t you Taksin, somewhat reptilian.

You simply cannot accept when you are wrong and then troll your way back around to the debunked argument.

It’s quite funny - which private college were you teaching at?

[Nineteenx]

Please refer me to the place where you debunked the idea and perhaps I will drop it. Otherwise, it’s a free world and an interesting conversation. I’ll keep on enjoying picking it up, especially when you drop your guard and argue my case for me, Steveo.

You're not the only one calling Mr Tripe out Taskin, it's become something of a common theme of late :D

I think our owners have made mistakes, I also think they have been very good for the most part and the issues which Steveo lambasts them for have mostly genuine reasons behind them that aren't entirely their fault, and I'm not making excuses for them as he might claim, I think things have just panned out a certain way for reasons not entirely of their making

After the Champions League win, Jurgen decided to keep on Shaq and Origi rather than sell them while their stock was high, Jurgen actually wanted to keep the squad that won the Champions League together to go for the title, I can't blame FSG or Jurgen for that, it worked

Last summer Jota and Thiago were good business, perhaps Origi and Shaq weren't moved on then because of Covid, which was nobodies fault, not replacing Lovren was an issue, but we don't know if that was FSG or Jurgen's decision, maybe Jurgen wanted to wait and get the player he wanted like he did with Virgil and to be fair, no-one expected or could have predicted Virgil, Gomez and Matip to be out for the rest of the season before Christmas, leaving it until the end of the January window to get anyone else is wasn't the best, but in the end, is was Phillips and Williams who we already had who played in the crucial wins in the run in and again, Jurgen has been a very long term admirer of Konate, maybe he didn't want to splash the cash on another CB and preferred to wait to get the player he wanted in.

This summer's more of a test, but again, we don't know Jurgen's thinking, I think we need a Gini replacement, hopefully Neuhas, another forward, possibly 2 as we have to start building our front 3 of the future and it will help us compete in all comps and an attacking mid, and all those most of us have listed need to be moved on, even if their fees will be less than they would have been because of the Covid market

I look at this summer as a test of FSG and Jurgen, for me he has to move on Keita, Origi, Shaqiri, Grujic, Wilson, Minamino, they're all either not at the required level, not going to improve to the required level or higher or have great ability, but haven't quite worked out and have been here easily long enough to confirm that and spend more time on the treatment table than available and I think we have to cut our losses on all of them, replacing Keita with a top quality attacking midfielder

[Taksin]

Bit of a creep aren’t you Taksin, somewhat reptilian.

You simply cannot accept when you are wrong and then troll your way back around to the debunked argument.

It’s quite funny - which private college were you teaching at?

Your nasty side is never far away

[Taksin]

You're not the only one calling Mr Tripe out Taskin, it's become something of a common theme of late :D

I think our owners have made mistakes, I also think they have been very good for the most part and the issues which Steveo lambasts them for have mostly genuine reasons behind them that aren't entirely their fault, and I'm not making excuses for them as he might claim, I think things have just panned out a certain way for reasons not entirely of their making



Of course they’ve made mistakes. My contention is we couldn’t have become so strong a team without good leadership at all levels of the club. I believe that’s a basic truth that applies to almost any business or organisation - the difference is in football we like to believe the manager is the boss, but that obviously isn’t true. The manager is dependant on upstairs to do his job and, in the end, his job is on the line more than theirs.

Steveo goes round in so many circles you have to look into his outrage to see what he wants you to take as his position because he often uses the opposite argument in the next breath.

In this case he says Arsenal haven’t been hampered by the cost of their stadium and to defend this (obscure) belief he starts saying that their downturn in fortune (let’s call it a demise) is the result of their American owner. I’d agree with this, obviously, except they also had other owners when they decided to pursue the stadium plans, so one way or another, Arsenal’s problems start at the level of the owners.

Part of the assertion he’s been putting together this time seems to be that Kroenke is American and therefore draining the club, just like our American owners. Except most objective observers see quite a difference in the strength of the two clubs. I take it from trying to understand why he ties himself in these knots that it’s important to him to compare their stadium building favourably in comparison to LFC, presumably as it maintains the litany of complaints he can make against FSG. So when it’s pointed out that their stadiums have been holding them back, it has to be untrue.

[Steveo]

You simply cannot accept the simple truth no matter how much evidence is presented. You then relentlessly circumnavigate back to it in ever more convoluted ways - desperate to bring back to the surface that which has been sunk.

This discussion was about the absolutely bogus narrative that building a new stadium leads to a demise. It doesn’t work that way and there are multiple examples that prove this.

With hard evidence presented you claim certain clubs can’t be included - :D poor Taksin - when I remove those clubs still leaving 3 times more as positive examples and expose the weakness of the Arsenal/Spurs cases you choose to move across and start talking about owners v Managers.

Now you try and go back to wrestling with the wrong assertion again ( forgive me for daring to say it is wrong even though I believe it is totally wrong ) that owners are more important than managers to success. Again I have provided multiple examples to thwart this bogus claim.

In a similar fashion to the Melter and his fanciful claims of near superpower abilities with magic foresight and prediction and his crazed Jordan Henderson fixation - you seem totally fixated with a a rigid belief in the fact that black is in fact white :D .

Good luck with that Taksin

[Taksin]

This discussion was about the absolutely bogus narrative that building a new stadium leads to a demise. It doesn’t work that way and there are multiple examples that prove this.


No it wasn't. This is what you wanted it to be about because you were defending your pet theories again and got confused. This was specifically about Arsenal and Spurs, not about how building new stadiums in general is bad.

fiordearg said;

"Looks like building big stadia has held back both Spurs and Arsenal
Incremental increases in capacity have served us and the scum better"

It's a modest and contained statement. Most people who understand football would agree with it. You took exception it and then started making big generalisations, including bandying around weird ideas as if they were certain truth, presumably after you've debunked everyone else in your own head at some stage - perhaps in the shower or whilst walking the dog.

I picked you up on one of your statements of fact:

"The idea of the debt being a handicap is largely fictional"

This is, of course, very hard to support as a statement if fact. But don't let that worry you. You've debunked everyone else.

[Steveo]

FYI

Arsenal FC had been owned by Bracewell-Smith and Hill-Wood until 2007. Why was the club unable to win a bean for 20 years before George Graham rocked up? Poor owners? Same owners who witnessed Graham - then a lull and then Wenger who was amazing for a time before - before losing a good degree of control as Kroenke came in. Well documented.

This same argument works for United and Ferguson. Was it the owners at United driving the success? God knows when he came in in 1986 he looked awful - but they stuck by him to be fair.. and look what happened - so maybe they do deserve a huge pat on the back BUT we know who was the greatest factor in their success right?

The owners are obviously key and can ruin any managers chances BUT unless they have a top manager it will not get them the success. This is clearly shown time and again across Europe and the Premier League.

It is so pronounced that sometimes a club with dreadful owners - like we had 2007-2010 can reach a Champions League Final and be on the verge of a title - while being ranked number 1 club in Europe.

It is possible for this to happen because management of the team is absolutely the number 1 factor. How else do certain managers replicate success across multiple clubs. Look at Klopp - Jose - Ferguson - Capello - Ancelotti to name some we may all know who have replicated success.

https://thefootballlovers.com/top-10-football-managers-with-the-most-trophies-and-titles/


This brings it back to the original point - the claim that Arsenal have been handicapped by the Emirates.

One can only assume that handicap falls into the category of lack of available funds. So then IF that is indeed the case HOW have Arsenal spent almost 3 times what we have on players in the last 5 years?

Here is the Transfer spend for each club over the last 5 years - you can look gross or Net and fill yer boots.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/premier-league/fuenfjahresvergleich/wettbewerb/GB1

[Steveo]

And again Taksin - you refuse to engage on all evidence provided of success following a move to a bigger newer stadium.

And refuse to engage on all evidence of managers who have replicated success at multiple clubs or who have achieved success across multiple owners. Or why clubs have one owner for ages and have periods of success and periods of demise.

Both of these require your attention before you can step any further.

[Taksin]

And again Taksin - you refuse to engage on all evidence provided of success following a move to a bigger newer stadium.


Go back to my last post and recognise that you have got lost in response to fiordearg's post. You are having a different argument to the one that we we were.

I've never argued against some kind of general principle that moving to a bigger stadium leads to success.

[Taksin]

And refuse to engage on all evidence of managers who have replicated success at multiple clubs or who have achieved success across multiple owners. Or why clubs have one owner for ages and have periods of success and periods of demise.


Not true. This topic interests me. I find your blatherings on the subject sometimes interesting, which is why I sometimes respond. I don't think your conclusions are either accurate or water-tight. Plenty of room to pull apart your syllogisms. I shall respond later on.

[Steveo]

Go back to my last post and recognise that you have got lost in response to fiordearg's post. You are having a different argument to the one that we we were.

I've never argued against some kind of general principle that moving to a bigger stadium leads to success.



Well in that case WTF are we talking about? This is why it feels like you are trying to score points on something totally different.

I simply asked if the original comment was fair and provided what I think was a pretty sound challenge to that.



Not true. This topic interests me. I find your blatherings on the subject sometimes interesting, which is why I sometimes respond. I don't think your conclusions are either accurate or water-tight. Plenty of room to pull apart your syllogisms. I shall respond later on.


This was a football forum last time I checked not the Yalta Conference dude… and


https://youtu.be/prFjxur_vkE

[Kev0909]

https://youtu.be/Yuxzuj5_AU4?t=3

[scientificred]

https://youtu.be/Yuxzuj5_AU4?t=3

Nice one Kev0909!

[Insidious]

Are there conspiracy theories that Kane isn't at his best at the Euro in the hope of lowering his price tag to get his move and if not, why not?

[Taksin]

The owners are obviously key



Just reread your post and found this. No need for any further argument

Now just the question of why you won't credit FSG for being the key to our recent success

[Kev0909]

Nice one Kev0909!

I thought it was appropriate :lol::lol::lol:

[scientificred]

Just reread your post and found this. No need for any further argument

Now just the question of why you won't credit FSG for being the key to our recent success
Methinks you two need to agree to disagree on many subjects.

[ianlfc]

Are there conspiracy theories that Kane isn't at his best at the Euro in the hope of lowering his price tag to get his move and if not, why not?

No. Just you mate 😆😆

[Steveo]

Just reread your post and found this. No need for any further argument

Now just the question of why you won't credit FSG for being the key to our recent success

That was never a debate Taksin. And was entirely on another thread. I challenged your stance that owners are most important factor in success. I have always credited FSG for bringing in Klopp ( hailed it as magnificent at the time and will continue to do so.) and am very grateful that. It does not preclude me from lamenting that they could and should have afforded him more funds and not force him to operate with so much on a sell to buy basis.

Many things are key to the workings of anything. A car won’t drive if the clutch is gone - so it’s a key component but it’s a given need - and not the major factor winning a rally. Winning titles and trophies requires more than simply tools.

We can look through history and see how some managers can do it and others cannot regardless of what is at their disposal.

[Kev0909]

Are there conspiracy theories that Kane isn't at his best at the Euro in the hope of lowering his price tag to get his move and if not, why not?

he's just shite for england

Unless it's san marino.

[Steveo]

Methinks you two need to agree to disagree on many subjects.

Agreed

[Insidious]

No. Just you mate 😆😆

That's no fun.

I love footballing conspiracy theories, irrespective of how daft some of them are.

[Steveo]

It might sound daft - BUT if he really wants out that badly and needs to lower his fee it isn’t that outlandish….. is it..? :D

Remember cannibal Luis..? Surely he was driving down his price to wriggle free…?

[Kev0909]

Will cost about x4 price suarez cost us, plus older wouldn't touch him for 150m odd with his injury record

you never know when someone may end up like Torres.

Looks a fucking donkey for england at the moment I'd rather play that everton shithead.

If I was city i'd sign Haaland over him, any day, heck even some of the younger strikers for much less.

[ianlfc]

That's no fun.

I love footballing conspiracy theories, irrespective of how daft some of them are.

In 2018 he signed a 6 year contract ,so he's contracted to Spurs until 2024. He can't have it both ways.

[LEGS]

Will cost about x4 price suarez cost us, plus older wouldn't touch him for 150m odd with his injury record

you never know when someone may end up like Torres.

Looks a fucking donkey for england at the moment I'd rather play that everton shithead.

If I was city i'd sign Haaland over him, any day, heck even some of the younger strikers for much less.

Kane is EPL proven he scores 25-30 goals a season IF he goes to City he will get abit more rest as well due to their depth of squad.

I know what you mean though Kev about injuries and they are a concern I guess Spurs play him as soon as he is able to walk !

I take it he is playing bad for England then ? Though I do remember before Euro 96 media/pundits wanted Shearer out the side and he did ok ����

[Insidious]

Will cost about x4 price suarez cost us, plus older wouldn't touch him for 150m odd with his injury record

I'd rather City signed Kane for 5 years than Haaland or Mbappe for 10 or so.

[Taksin]

That was never a debate Taksin. And was entirely on another thread. I challenged your stance that owners are most important factor in success.


So do you or don't you believe the ownership model is key to the success of a club?

I wish it was clear but it's hard to follow your meandering arguments. I mean, you did say FSG were negligent, criminal and clowns didn't you?

You're not trying to have it both ways are you, Steveo? I do believe I have accused you of trying it in the past, but I wouldn't wish to mis-characterise you.

And for historical accuracy, this didn't start with you challenging my belief that the owners were the most important factor in our success, this started because I challenged your constant assertions that we were being badly run as a club. It was and is much easier to argue that we are a well run club than arguing that the owners are the most important factor. I have added the the second part to illustrate how far apart our positions are and how much further it is possible to go than claiming criminal negligence.

Remember I asked you to name a better run club and you gave me Tottenham (on three occasions). Then you denied you'd said that. Now you say the owners are in fact 'key' and claim it was never a debate.

If you stopped going after the win, we might have an interesting discussion, but you have smelt defeat from the start and all we have as a result is endless circles to go round in.

[Taksin]

By the way, I think Hicks and Gilette were actually doing a decent job up to and after the Milan final. The 2005 final was heavily against the odds but we were getting stronger and stronger after that point. We signed Torres after Athens and things were looking very promising.

It was after that point when things started to fall apart. They fell apart upstairs - Rafa was still a good manager, but everything lost its shape. The owners fell out with the manager - they weren't giving him what he needed, or they weren't able to assure him that they were working with him. They contacted Klinsmann to take his position after the falling out, undermining the direction of the club fatally. The ownership structure had lost its integrity at that point.

It took about tree years for Benitez to leave from that point and the club was thereafter destabilised, eventually severely. The sickness was in the board room and it wasn't until we got some health back into the core of the club that we were able to build for success again.

[scientificred]

It might sound daft - BUT if he really wants out that badly and needs to lower his fee it isn’t that outlandish….. is it..? :D

Remember cannibal Luis..? Surely he was driving down his price to wriggle free…?
Can't see it!
Kane is ageing and is surely desperate for trophies and England have a good a chance as any in Euro2020.

[Steveo]

Can't see it!
Kane is ageing and is surely desperate for trophies and England have a good a chance as any in Euro2020.

It's far fetched I agree but I wouldn't bet my life on it not being the case.

[Steveo]

@ Taksin believe what you want. I really don't care.

[justme]

I hope Man-city buy Kane.. hes not that fluent on the floor. He will cause a lot of their attacks to break down.. hes use to quick balls around the sides and crosses.,

[Steveo]

You don't think he would strengthen them?

[Taksin]

@ Taksin believe what you want. I really don't care.

will do, Steveo.

I'll keep on reading what people say on here as carefully as I can, and occasionally entering into conversation with anyone willing

[scientificred]

It might sound daft - BUT if he really wants out that badly and needs to lower his fee it isn’t that outlandish….. is it..? :D

Remember cannibal Luis..? Surely he was driving down his price to wriggle free…?
That was nothing more than s love bite, or a friendly nibble!
Had a girlfriend once who would bite my fingers when they were close to her mouth
It was soft and gentle and playful (without giving too much else away!).
A bit like a cat I had too.
If Luis really wanted to sink his gnashers into you it would be seriously messy!
It wasn't!

[Steveo]

I agree but knowing the media frenzy and PR disaster for his parent club after all that went before - it was a calculated love bite surely..? :D

[skyebo]

By the way, I think Hicks and Gilette were actually doing a decent job up to and after the Milan final. The 2005 final was heavily against the odds but we were getting stronger and stronger after that point. We signed Torres after Athens and things were looking very promising.

It was after that point when things started to fall apart. They fell apart upstairs - Rafa was still a good manager, but everything lost its shape. The owners fell out with the manager - they weren't giving him what he needed, or they weren't able to assure him that they were working with him. They contacted Klinsmann to take his position after the falling out, undermining the direction of the club fatally. The ownership structure had lost its integrity at that point.

It took about tree years for Benitez to leave from that point and the club was thereafter destabilised, eventually severely. The sickness was in the board room and it wasn't until we got some health back into the core of the club that we were able to build for success again.
Hicks and Gillete didn't come in until 2007

[scientificred]

I agree but knowing the media frenzy and PR disaster for his parent club after all that went before - it was a calculated love bite surely..? :D
An interesting concept Steveo!

[justme]

Former Liverpool owner Tom Hicks has blamed his former partner George Gillett for their collective failure to deliver success at Anfield. The Americans took over the Reds in 2007 but sold three years later to John Henry and New England Sports Ventures group via a court ruling.

[justme]

You don't think he would strengthen them?

He will get goals. But on counter attacks i think he will be easier to defend against... Rather than a forward who can hold the ball and run with it. I think Citys attacks will break down easier

[scientificred]

He will get goals. But on counter attacks i think he will be easier to defend against... Rather than a forward who can hold the ball and run with it. I think Citys attacks will break down easier
Personally I think he will spend a lot of time on the bench if he joined Man City .
That may suit him or nay not.
Could be effective if it is employed that way and he will no doubt get a few trophies.

[skyebo]

I think he would play most games, they have just lost Aguero and Jesus wouldn't score as many as either of them.

[Steveo]

My personal preference is that he is priced out of a move and stays at the Spuds. Would want him to stay well clear of Manchester

[Taksin]

Hicks and Gillete didn't come in until 2007

yes true. They were there in the months leading up to the final against AC Milan. They had promised to have the new stadium started within 60 days and to back Rafa with whatever he needed in terms of signings. Their relationship started to sour around the time of the winter transfer window, about a year in.

My comments about the period after 2005 are incorrect. Even though Moores / Parry were making some important signings, they were losing control of the finances and did not know how to catch up with United, which is why the board recommended selling to Hicks and Gillette

[scientificred]

yes true. They were there in the months leading up to the final against AC Milan. They had promised to have the new stadium started within 60 days and to back Rafa with whatever he needed in terms of signings. Their relationship started to sour around the time of the winter transfer window, about a year in.

My comments about the period after 2005 are incorrect. Even though Moores / Parry were making some important signings, they were losing control of the finances and did not know how to catch up with United, which is why the board recommended selling to Hicks and Gillette
Surely this belongs on a different thread by now!

[Kev0909]

Kane is EPL proven he scores 25-30 goals a season IF he goes to City he will get abit more rest as well due to their depth of squad.

I know what you mean though Kev about injuries and they are a concern I guess Spurs play him as soon as he is able to walk !

I take it he is playing bad for England then ? Though I do remember before Euro 96 media/pundits wanted Shearer out the side and he did ok ����

A donkey would of done better in the first 2 games, and have more touches I was being too Kind

He looks about as fit as me

Probably should give up the smoking.

Then again players like Sancho and Henderson can't even get on the pitch- so what hope we do have

[Taksin]

Surely this belongs on a different thread by now!

You're very orderly, scientifcred..

I'd say discussing our own demise is relevant when discussing Tottenham's demise, but if you wish to police the forum, please show us the way and I'm sure we can separate out all the different topics

[scientificred]

You're very orderly, scientifcred..

I'd say discussing our own demise is relevant when discussing Tottenham's demise, but if you wish to police the forum, please show us the way and I'm sure we can separate out all the different topics
The title of this thread is
'The sad demise of Tottenham Hotspur'
What demise? What is our demise?
You persist in a very lengthy and verbose argument with Steveo about what appears to be their top management.
That would appear to be a better topic.
But Steveo has agreed to disagree with you anyway.
What say you?

[Taksin]

What demise? What is our demise?


I don’t understand what you’re saying in your post, SR.

Our demise was going from the greatest team in history to winning next to nothing for 30 years. I would have thought that was an interesting topic on an LFC forum. It certainly interests me as I’ve only spent 30 years thinking about it.

Trying to draw conclusions or develop insights that can be applied to the demise of Man U or Tottenham seems logically justified.

If it bores you shitless, I can’t help you really. I try to discuss things that appear interesting. There’s plenty written on here that I find tedious but I don’t see the point of complaining.

As for agreeing to disagree, Steveo has said he doesn’t care, which is different. I doubt it will last - he certainly does seem to care to me. And anyway, agreeing to disagree is a nonsensical stance to take in my opinion. There are plenty of polite ways out of this discussion but he isn’t interested in taking them. Saying he doesn’t care is more like a huff than a truce.

If all this makes you uncomfortable then I am willing to leave the forum. I don’t wish to make anyone’s life a misery. But there is nothing insincere or irrelevant about the discussions I take up. I actually enjoy trying to construct an argument - that’s why I write.

I can’t get through all of nineteenx’s posts on tactics but I just skim over some of them. I think he adds plenty of value on here. Complaining to him because they are too much for me would seem a bit miserly.

[scientificred]

Don't leave the forum Taksin!
I just don't get this thread or the others with similar titles.
I won't be visiting them anymore.
You are of course entitled to post away to your heart's content.

[Insidious]

Our demise was going from the greatest team in history to winning next to nothing for 30 years. I would have thought that was an interesting topic on an LFC forum. It certainly interests me as I’ve only spent 30 years thinking about it.

Trying to draw conclusions or develop insights that can be applied to the demise of Man U or Tottenham seems logically justified.

A pretty neat summation of why I find monitoring what United are up to quite interesting - it's not to do with being obsessed with them specifically, moreso just that there are a lot of similarities - if it had been Norwich who dominated for two decades I'd spend a lot of time in the "demise of Norwich City" thread.

[miller0863]

You should not ever think of leaving Taksin, you are an excellent addition to this Forum. You construct a very well thought out and eloquent argument and the fact I don’t always agree with you is precisely the reason I wouldn’t want you leaving, so please don’t.

Exactly the same goes for Steveo, though he hasn’t offered to fall on his sword as far as I am aware.

[Kev0909]

what is the point in all this shite honestly

who cares, no need to argue about such silly things!!!

everyone is allowed to say what they think, that's what makes going on here interesting, and the personalities of different people, it's good people aren't a sheep !!

Sometimes people clash and there's a big debate afterwards, but we're all LFC fans, and I don't get the point of "point scoring" tbh, not going to lie i've basically skimmed over the last few pages and thought what a load of tripe, no disrespect to either of you, just my opinion I couldn't care less, but once again my own opinion- which is why I stay out of it.

But why argue and care so much over spurs stadium, or arsenal etc? there's more things to life

I have enough drama with british politics, or laughing at southgate or well being angry, if I need more drama, well there's always the soaps and stupid arsehats in real life! (Luckily I tend to avoid those so called "friends" these days, now i've grown up)

had enough drama in the last 2 years to last me a lifetime though, I don't see the point in it tbh, I think if you need drama on a forum (not saying either of you do, or anyone does BTW!!) then obviously things are lacking IRL, and you need to make life more interesting, that's not aimed at ANYONE before I cause a riot.

I'm not sure about anyone else but I go on here to talk about football, say my opinion discuss thing's don't like it? cool, everyone is different- also I like to have a rant, so I get things off my chest, rightly or wrongly, which can come across very strong sometimes

P.S firmino is shit, god bless, goodnight. and I've never seen a player go downhill as fast, maybe torres, but you can't be out of form for a year and a half ++++ apart from some good games, it's simply not good enough, maybe if you're west fucking brom.

[Steveo]

Nice one Kev..

Everyone should indeed be allowed to say what they think and it is a load of tripe ( now a gourmet food ) because it is 2 opposing views which after exhaustive reasoning will seemingly never change.

This is where ‘agree to disagree’ becomes so useful.

I do find the suffering of those who have to bear it all quite amusing though.

I personally much prefer talking about football - be it the hugely over hyped assist stat or the poor finishing ability we see more and more of.


It is just an online forum however so we can expect the subject matter to vary wildly.

[Taksin]

Cheers, Miller
I enjoy it for the most part, just don’t want to ruin anyone else’s fun. The question of whether the club is well run or badly run is not exactly going away. It’s a live topic. To be honest, I don’t understand why more people don’t get involved. :) We must all have some thoughts on the matter.
I interjected this time because fiiordearg had made a simple point that I thought was uncontroversial. Biting my tongue is one option but I figure ideas are there to be debated, especially firm ideas.

[Kev0909]

Over the last 2 years I think the topic has been exhausted, between yourself and stevo really

I mean i've said my piece on FSG already, too.

[Taksin]

Over the last 2 years I think the topic has been exhausted, between yourself and stevo really

I mean i've said my piece on FSG already, too.

does that mean you will never say anything about them again?

[Kev0909]

does that mean you will never say anything about them again?

Nope but there's no point arguing and going on about something weeks on end, that is never ending you're not getting anywhere with the subject

You literally may aswell bang your head against the wall, in this case. both of you :D

it was interesting to follow until it got a bit silly, which is a shame we can't all be civil on here.

Also I have a unpopular opinion about owners, so I don't really want to add to the fire, and I think Roman is one of the best owners in the league, he's done a lot for chelsea- with his own money even if he is loaded, and generally cares about the club, I've said before I don't get why people would hate actually having some money to spend and compete for once, Klopp can only do so much, it's been like that for years, then people wonder why the likes of suarez torres etc leave, because why wouldn't you surrounded by players you was at least two times better.

can't see us winning anything anytime soon again with these owners unless they actually spend some money, sad truth, but yes they deserve some credit obviously for Klopp in the first place etc, I just don't think they really care about LFC in the grand scheme of things not now chelsea and city are spending more money anyway and have more complete squad than us already (outside starting 11)- but once again money, Imagine if Salah was out for the season it would of been worse than VVD, we'd be a lot worse off. Frankly we have no real quality depth, other teams do, so other teams naturally will have a better chance of winning things. we did well to win the PL and CL with these owners, but thank you Klopp and the team behind the scenes.

[Taksin]

fell straight into my trap.. ;)