Fulham v Liverpool (Match Thread)

[Kev0909]

And that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. Some nice runs/touches, but not enough end product, which is the bit that matters the most.

A better version of firmino then

great stuff.

[Nineteenx]

Come on come on come ON Liverpool, come the fucking FUCK on Liverpool, nick yourselves a late late late winner here now

[Crimson Dynasty]

I'm going to chalk this substitution to Klopp having an eye on Wednesday and having played Mo all throughout the CL game last week.

Otherwise it makes no sense as he's our most potent goal threat to get that second goal.

[southernboy]

I would be genuinely happy with a point

[LFC-DPG]

Yeah spurs game is massive

[RedNoodle]

A better version of firmino then

great stuff.

I had a feeling you were going to say that.

[Nineteenx]

Come on come on come ON Liverpool, come the fucking FUCK on Liverpool, anyone from anywhere anyhow time, NICK yourselves a late late late LATE winner here now

[Steveo]

This game today - a point is a result. We were so comprehensively outplayed first half. 3 or 4:0 would not have flattered Fulham.

If we get one point it is a great point today.

[teesred]

I would be genuinely happy with a point

I think we all would.

William's been spot on since he came on.

[RedNoodle]

WTF was that Divok?!?!?

[teesred]

This game today - a point is a result. We were so comprehensively outplayed first half. 3 or 4:0 would not have flattered Fulham.

If we get one point it is a great point today.

The best keeper in the world has saved our blushes.
A truly atrocious performance. As bad as Villa almost.

[miller0863]

Well that performance got more than it deserved.
At least we didn’t lose but away from home our results have been poor

[southernboy]

Shocking first half. A taste of what to expect next Saturday.

[Nineteenx]

That'll be that, very disappointing first half today, credit to Fulham for how they set up to stop us playing through or direct, much better second half, Hendo, Mane and Jones all should have scored

As ever all the focus on the next game, getting the win and another vital 3 points

[Insidious]

Still joint top.

Can't call it an opportunity missed based on that first half performance.

Just need to keep plugging away until we start getting Milner, Shaqiri, Alcantara etc etc back.

[Kev0909]

Thank god for VAR and another mistake by the other team to give us a goal....

Ever since klopp started ranting in the press we've not got worse

[RedNoodle]

We deserved **** all from that game/Fulham deserved all three points.

If we put in many/any more performances like that we won't won't be retaining our title, never mind going deep in the CL.

If Fulham had played like that before now they would at least be around mid table.

We need major reinforcements and we need them ASAP. FSG need to open up the cheque book, and I don't want to here any 'FSG apologist BS' from anyone. :mad:

[justme]

Fuck i hate not winning.. to many draws so far this season..

[Kop On Portugal]

Everyone here could expect a draw next Wednesday. Shocking first half, and with this injuries we cannot be considered a candidate to title.

[LEGS]

It’s a hard earned point we should have lost really but i’ll take it.

I’d take a draw with Spurs too if honest it’s getting tight and the schedule looks like it is getting to the teams who play in Europe.

[justme]

We need to move from on Firmino his scoring ration in the last year as been diabolical.

[miller0863]

We were unlucky not to win two of our draws, we were lucky not to lose this one.

[Crimson Dynasty]

What a shite performance from us.

Full credit to Fulham who should have won it outright based on that first half.

Too many of our lot didn't show up and that's infuriating as hell.

Klopp himself also has a lot of explaining to do.
His selection choices (going back to playing starters in a meaningless CL match last week) to his substitutions forced on him by the inevitable expected injuries.


We're dropping far too many points where we shouldn't be, and it's just so infuriating.

[LEGS]

We deserved **** all from that game/Fulham deserved all three points.

If we put in many/any more performances like that we won't won't be retaining our title, never mind going deep in the CL.

If Fulham had played like that before now they would at least be around mid table.

We need major reinforcements and we need them ASAP. FSG need to open up the cheque book, and I don't want to here any 'FSG apologist BS' from anyone. :mad:

The problem with signing players is they have to be British as we have no room in the squad for foreign players.

You are aware we have several players out we are doing well to hang in there imo we won’t win the league I’ve said this from the start and I’m more convinced of it now nothing is going for us injury wise.

One way to open up a spot is to not register Adrian but I don’t think Klopp treats people like that.

[ianlfc]

Still joint top.

[miller0863]

Best midfielder was Jones today, a 19 year old learning his trade at the top level.
The rest should look at themselves.

[RedNoodle]

The only player that comes out of that game with any credit is Alisson.

I watched a discussion yesterday about who are the top five keepers in the world and for me Alisson is definitely the best keeper in the world. It would help him out if he actually had more than one (currently absent) top /world class defensive player in front of/around him.

[RedNoodle]

Best midfielder was Jones today, a 19 year old learning his trade at the top level.
The rest should look at themselves.

He still needs to improve a fair bit when it comes to his end product. All the nice touches and runs count for naught if they don't amount to anything.

[Artisan]

Shouldn't have mattered who we fielded today, but as always teams lift their game against us. Yet did feck all against City last week, typical.

[Kev0909]

Shame about world class henderson and firmino today

can't wait for thiago to be back to have some quality in midfield, and fabinho to go back to midfield so we're not a complete pushover

[ianlfc]

Fulham defended with 11 men behind the ball for the whole 2nd half .

[HLOGI]

Klopp has not been great this season. He has been okay. Injuries aside he has made some poor decisions at time which allow opposition to gain momentum. He doesn't asses the physicality of some teams and try and negate it. Fulham didnt look like a side that could best us for pace but they had bit in the middle and physicality. A midfield of Wijnaldum and Jones is beyond lightweight. Then to move Hendo out as well that was poor. Klopp doesn't trust his squad only uses them when there is no other option. Phillips the times he has played has done well. But clearly only played when there is no other choice but is not trusted. Same with Rhys Williams. Fabinho has been good at the back but is no CB and we need him more in the middle then at the back.

Klopp has to stick to his formation and team and then grove others onto that. So Fab, Hendo in the midfield and another. Mari, Robbo and Trent and another. Salah and Mane and another. Simple as that unless. He changes formation then I can see. Injuries one thing but then changing players positions in the same ustem I dont like. Gini, Mane and Robbo is a great axxess down the left but he breaks it up when another midfielder comes in. Play that guy on the right then and leave that which is not broken.

2 points dropped no one can convince me otherwise. If you want to win the league you have to beat Fulham and Brighton. Big opportunity missed. Spurs could now beat us and we would be playing catch up. Also Chelsea could surpass us in the week. City would be equal if you count their game in hand.

[southernboy]

I very much doubt if Fulham will play that well again this season.

I don’t think it’s any coincidence that all of the teams that played in Europe mid week looked off the pace today. It’s going to catch up with all of us at some point.

[HLOGI]

We need to move from on Firmino his scoring ration in the last year as been diabolical.

Please. But we not the Manager.

[RedNoodle]

The problem with signing players is they have to be British as we have no room in the squad for foreign players.

You are aware we have several players out we are doing well to hang in there imo we won’t win the league I’ve said this from the start and I’m more convinced of it now nothing is going for us injury wise.

One way to open up a spot is to not register Adrian but I don’t think Klopp treats people like that.

We can get rid of one or two players to make room for others. We still have far too many sub-par and/or inconsistent players on our books. Our bench is current that of a mid table team, not that of the current PL champions and recent CL and WCC winners.

Yes we have players out, but I didn't think our bench was good enough (especially to consistently challenge on more than one front) even before we had the injuries that we currently have. We have been relying on a very good first XI. As soon as one or two key players got injured, we started to struggle.

We are in the top five richest clubs in the world. Covid or no we/FSG have the means to buy a few quality players. Not doing so is negligent, and eventually we'll end up paying dearly.

[HLOGI]

The problem with signing players is they have to be British as we have no room in the squad for foreign players.

You are aware we have several players out we are doing well to hang in there imo we won’t win the league I’ve said this from the start and I’m more convinced of it now nothing is going for us injury wise.

One way to open up a spot is to not register Adrian but I don’t think Klopp treats people like that.

Signing players is not the issue and a easy kop out when Klop getd it wrong. We still had 11 better players on the park but couldn't do shite. FSG is blamed when we dont win. Klopp praised when we do.

[justme]

Please. But we not the Manager.

We need an out and our forward like Haaland. But Mane will be sold. I think its likely he will go in the summer.
Would rather get rid of Firmino. if we are gonna play witha false 9 you may as well give Curtis Jones a go at the role at least he can turn and run. Firmino is just basically someone we play off and thats it.

[HLOGI]

We can get rid of one or two players to make room for others. We still have far too many sub-par and/or inconsistent players on our books. Our bench is current that of a mid table team, not that of the current PL champions and recent CL and WCC winners.

Yes we have players out, but I didn't think our bench was good enough (especially to consistently challenge on more than one front) even before we had the injuries that we currently have. We have been relying on a very good first XI. As soon as one or two key players got injured, we started to struggle.

We are in the top five richest clubs in the world. Covid or no we/FSG have the means to buy a few quality players. Not doing so is negligent, and eventually we'll end up paying dearly.

Have they not been signing players that won us the league and CL. Today was a desire and coaching problem. Also Klopp risking players mid week a big booboo.

[RedNoodle]

I very much doubt if Fulham will play that well again this season.

I don’t think it’s any coincidence that all of the teams that played in Europe mid week looked off the pace today. It’s going to catch up with all of us at some point.

Solution? A deeper/better quality squad + Klopp not having brain farts.

[HLOGI]

We need an out and our forward like Haaland. But Mane will be sold. I think its likely he will go in the summer.
Would rather get rid of Firmino. if we are gonna play witha false 9 you may as well give Curtis Jones a go at the role at least he can turn and run. Firmino is just basically someone we play off and thats it.

Agree. Both Mane and Salah despite their numbers are not natural born killers. We need that. I think Jota could be but a Haaland would be great.

[LEGS]

Signing players is not the issue and a easy kop out when Klop getd it wrong. We still had 11 better players on the park but couldn't do shite. FSG is blamed when we dont win. Klopp praised when we do.

I wasn’t the one saying we should sign players but it is obvious we need to sign a CB.

We are lucky to get a point today no doubt about that.

[Kev0909]

Good job noone is doing brilliant

We're very lucky in a way

yes we have our problems with injury's but that's still a good team on paper we put out, more than enough, very strong still only 1 or 2 100% starters missing.

I love VAR

[teesred]

Best midfielder was Jones today, a 19 year old learning his trade at the top level.
The rest should look at themselves.

Getting better all the time, always seems to up his game in the second half l.

[HLOGI]

Klopp needs to play Minamino as a 9 or ref. If he bombs he bombs. But the lad is not given a crack and when he does he has to okay out of position and then he looks so wimpy.

[RedNoodle]

Have they not been signing players that won us the league and CL. Today was a desire and coaching problem. Also Klopp risking players mid week a big booboo.

Yes we've signed some good players (who make up our first XI), but we are lacking when it comes to those we have in reserve. We are not going to sign 'bargains' every time, as players like Minamino and Keita have shown. Therefore we have to be prepared to splash the cash either on genuine 'top quality' players, or a few players, whereby we'd be unlucky if we didn't have at least one or two make the grade.

As it is we/FSG seem reluctant to splash the cash, which can be shown by us doing little-nothing in various windows, leading to a very low net spend.

[HLOGI]

I wasn’t the one saying we should sign players but it is obvious we need to sign a CB.

We are lucky to get a point today no doubt about that.

No I know.m sorry about that. Was responding to the Red Noodle whom u had quoted.

[teesred]

I very much doubt if Fulham will play that well again this season.

I don’t think it’s any coincidence that all of the teams that played in Europe mid week looked off the pace today. It’s going to catch up with all of us at some point.

Agree. They've played out of their skins and wouldn't be rock bottom if they turned in half that type of performance every other week. We probably made them look better because of how poor we were. First half was as bad as it gets.

[LEGS]

We can get rid of one or two players to make room for others. We still have far too many sub-par and/or inconsistent players on our books. Our bench is current that of a mid table team, not that of the current PL champions and recent CL and WCC winners.

Yes we have players out, but I didn't think our bench was good enough (especially to consistently challenge on more than one front) even before we had the injuries that we currently have. We have been relying on a very good first XI. As soon as one or two key players got injured, we started to struggle.

We are in the top five richest clubs in the world. Covid or no we/FSG have the means to buy a few quality players. Not doing so is negligent, and eventually we'll end up paying dearly.

IF we don’t have injuries we have a subs bench that looks something like Jota Shaq Minamino Origi Jones Gini/Fabinho Gomez Milner Ox Keita Greek lad at LB of course it is good enough.

You need to accept we have no right to win every game and to blame FSG all the time is not right.

Yes Klopp messed up Wednesday but we have had two of our best players taken out by thug challenges nothing Klopp the players or FSG can do about that.

It is also not a normal season lots of teams are dropping points this season that is why the league is so tight at the minute.

[LEGS]

No I know.m sorry about that. Was responding to the Red Noodle whom u had quoted.


No worries mate but we defo need a CB that is clear we could drop out of the top 4 if we get anymore injuries.

[Insidious]

Scott Parker cosplaying as a Bond villain.

[teesred]

Scott Parker cosplaying as a Bond villain.

I like that navy jacket and polo neck combo.

[HLOGI]

They are the owners who brought us elation and tremendous success. Net spend is just a word. They have backed the Manager to the hilt. Mane, Salah, Gini, Ox, VVD, AB, Jota, Fab all big money signings under Fsg. They have broken our record transfer on numerous occasions. The whole world gasped at the fee paid for Virgil but they did. Same with AB.

We dont normally do business in Jsn and that could be down to Klopp. We don't sign many players at a time which could also be down to Klopp.

FSG have been the best owners in my eyes because they deliver success. Their way but success. They brought Klopp not anyone else they did and they have backed him.

[Steveo]

@ LEGS - Jota should not be on any bench except for games that do not matter.

[teesred]

They are the owners who brought us elation and tremendous success. Net spend is just a word. They have backed the Manager to the hilt. Mane, Salah, Gini, Ox, VVD, AB, Jota, Fab all big money signings under Fsg. They have broken our record transfer on numerous occasions. The whole world gasped at the fee paid for Virgil but they did. Same with AB.

We dont normally do business in Jsn and that could be down to Klopp. We don't sign many players at a time which could also be down to Klopp.

FSG have been the best owners in my eyes because they deliver success. Their way but success. They brought Klopp not anyone else they did and they have backed him.

It will be fatal if we dont buy a CB in January.
Some decisions need making about the 4 crocks we have. Losses need to cut on 2 of those 4 surely? Its ridiculous the timeout they have and its currently having a massive effect on our squad and performances.

[HLOGI]

No worries mate but we defo need a CB that is clear we could drop out of the top 4 if we get anymore injuries.

Agree. I like Rhys William's though. Heard people wanting Schoors who is the same age more experienced but you only get that when you play. If we sign a CB I would like White ot Konsa of we have to make up our British quota as some have mentioned even Declan Rice as he can play in mid as well. I was not convinced by Upemacano the time I have seen him as well as his partner. So not sure who is out there.

[LEGS]

@ LEGS - Jota should not be on any bench except for games that do not matter.

Well yeah what I mean is the bench could be Jota/Salah/Mane/Firmino.

My point is if everyone is fit we have a good starting eleven and our bench is better than most.

[Kev0909]

it's not just the defense that's the problem that's the worrying thing

Lord help us if salah picks up a injury he's the only one that score, and we was very lucky today.

Mane hasn't scored in 7, firmino scores once every 10 games if we're lucky, henderson offers 0 scoring wise, infact he offered nothing today, Jones was miles the best mdifielder ffs, world class you having a laugh? Wij had another Wij game, hot and he's cold, great song.

We'll be lucky if we get 2 goals from origi and minimino

for the first time in ages, I'd say we're the salah show at the moment. (by that i mean one player pulling us out the shit week in week out)

[LEGS]

Agree. I like Rhys William's though. Heard people wanting Schoors who is the same age more experienced but you only get that when you play. If we sign a CB I would like White ot Konsa of we have to make up our British quota as some have mentioned even Declan Rice as he can play in mid as well. I was not convinced by Upemacano the time I have seen him as well as his partner. So not sure who is out there.

Rhys Williams is a good prospect agreed and he is only 19 Schurr is 21 and has over 100 games under his belt.

Konsa is good but he would cost a bomb and I agree I am not sold on Upemacano either.

Ben White is a no for me he is talented but he isn’t good enough for us.

[southernboy]

Let’s count our blessings, if Adrian had been in goal today like he was against Villa, we may have been looking at a similar scoreline.

[skyebo]

Let’s count our blessings, if Adrian had been in goal today like he was against Villa, we may have been looking at a similar scoreline.

Or he could have saved the one that Alisson let in.

[Kev0909]

Let’s count our blessings, if Adrian had been in goal today like he was against Villa, we may have been looking at a similar scoreline.

well if they had a half decent striker.....

then again we don't now so it's all fair

[RedNoodle]

IF we don’t have injuries we have a subs bench that looks something like Jota Shaq Minamino Origi Jones Gini/Fabinho Gomez Milner Ox Keita Greek lad at LB of course it is good enough.

You need to accept we have no right to win every game and to blame FSG all the time is not right.

Yes Klopp messed up Wednesday but we have had two of our best players taken out by thug challenges nothing Klopp the players or FSG can do about that.

It is also not a normal season lots of teams are dropping points this season that is why the league is so tight at the minute.

Minamino has been poor, whilst Shaq is injury prone and Klopp doesn't seem to want to use him that much when he's not injured. Origi simply isn't good enough to be a consistent genuine threat coming off the bench, and Jones' end product still isn't there, making his end product a similar level to Origi's.

Gini goes awol away from home far too often (again only the blinkered cannot/do not want to see this), whilst Fabinho tends to have spells where he looks great, only for him to then have spells where his level drops. Gomez has been poor/a liability and definitely has seriously regressed from when he was being touted as the future of the England team. Milner is getting older, and is quite possibly coming to the end of his time with us, whereby he is only going to be used in an 'emergency'.

The Ox is 'ok' (but not great) and is injury prone, whilst Keita has been largely poor and is also injury prone (which is an understatement), and whilst the Greek lad looks half decent, he has already picked up the LFC injury curse.

That is NOT a great bench.

No we don't have a right to win every game, but we do have the means to have a bench that is befitting of the current PL champions and the fifth richest club in the world. Having such a bench would mean we have more in reserve to help us out when we have games such as the one we had today, never mind actually be able to compete on multiple fronts season after season, something we haven't been able to do for a long while, never mind given the style of football that Klopp plays.

If you think FSG are perfect then I'm not going to try and stop you, but as far as I'm concerned they need to give Klopp the funds to provide us with a squad more befitting of our status. If others such as yourself don't think it's a problem now, you are going to be in for shock if we don't get in another miracle worker when Klopp leaves us, as whoever comes in will require big funds to keep us on top. If FSG don't provide them to whoever comes in, there's a good chance we're going to go back to being 'nearly men'.

[Kev0909]

Pissed off at the thought Mbappe will probably end up at city and haaland at utd

While we'll be sticking with firmino for years due to FSG

Unless we sell salah/mane and then we still lack quality depth as you say noods.. doesn't help most of the squad players are injury prone

we only made them big signing mainly from sales TBH think we spent more than usual this window though?

Don't think we even made a profit!! makes a change

[skyebo]

Minamino has been poor, whilst Shaq is injury prone and Klopp doesn't seem to want to use him that much when he's not injured. Origi simply isn't good enough to be a consistent genuine threat coming off the bench, and Jones' end product still isn't there, making his end product a similar level to Origi's.

Gini goes awol away from home far too often (again only the blinkered cannot/do not want to see this), whilst Fabinho tends to have spells where he looks great, only for him to then have spells where his level drops. Gomez has been poor/a liability and definitely has seriously regressed from when he was being touted as the future of the England team. Milner is getting older, and is quite possibly coming to the end of his time with us, whereby he is only going to be used in an 'emergency'.

The Ox is 'ok' (but not great) and is injury prone, whilst Keita has been largely poor and is also injury prone (which is an understatement), and whilst the Greek lad looks half decent, he has already picked up the LFC injury curse.

That is NOT a great bench.

No we don't have a right to win every game, but we do have the means to have a bench that is befitting of the current PL champions and the fifth richest club in the world. Having such a bench would mean we have more in reserve to help us out when we have games such as the one we had today, never mind actually be able to compete on multiple fronts season after season, something we haven't been able to do for a long while, never mind given the style of football that Klopp plays.

If you think FSG are perfect then I'm not going to try and stop you, but as far as I'm concerned they need to give Klopp the funds to provide us with a squad more befitting of our status. If others such as yourself don't think it's a problem now, you are going to be in for shock if we don't get in another miracle worker when Klopp leaves us, as whoever comes in will require big funds to keep us on top. If FSG don't provide them to whoever comes in, there's a good chance we're going to go back to being 'nearly men'.

Apart from all that, are you happy ?

[RedNoodle]

Apart from all that, are you happy ?

Nope.

[Kev0909]

can't wait for kane and son to tear us apart !!!!!!

wonder how long matip will be broken for?

Spurs seem quite solid in midfield too, so probably be all over ours again like fulham and brighton

then again we can't play that shit again surely

at least we're at home, that gives us a chance still unbeaten in god knows how long

[Steveo]

Nope.

Post of the day Noods.

[LEGS]

Minamino has been poor, whilst Shaq is injury prone and Klopp doesn't seem to want to use him that much when he's not injured. Origi simply isn't good enough to be a consistent genuine threat coming off the bench, and Jones' end product still isn't there, making his end product a similar level to Origi's.

Gini goes awol away from home far too often (again only the blinkered cannot/do not want to see this), whilst Fabinho tends to have spells where he looks great, only for him to then have spells where his level drops. Gomez has been poor/a liability and definitely has seriously regressed from when he was being touted as the future of the England team. Milner is getting older, and is quite possibly coming to the end of his time with us, whereby he is only going to be used in an 'emergency'.

The Ox is 'ok' (but not great) and is injury prone, whilst Keita has been largely poor and is also injury prone (which is an understatement), and whilst the Greek lad looks half decent, he has already picked up the LFC injury curse.

That is NOT a great bench.

No we don't have a right to win every game, but we do have the means to have a bench that is befitting of the current PL champions and the fifth richest club in the world. Having such a bench would mean we have more in reserve to help us out when we have games such as the one we had today, never mind actually be able to compete on multiple fronts season after season, something we haven't been able to do for a long while, never mind given the style of football that Klopp plays.

If you think FSG are perfect then I'm not going to try and stop you, but as far as I'm concerned they need to give Klopp the funds to provide us with a squad more befitting of our status. If others such as yourself don't think it's a problem now, you are going to be in for shock if we don't get in another miracle worker when Klopp leaves us, as whoever comes in will require big funds to keep us on top. If FSG don't provide them to whoever comes in, there's a good chance we're going to go back to being 'nearly men'.

Well you are entitled to your opinion.

If you want a better bench you might have to ask Man City owners to join us and even then like with Chelsea it only lasts for so long as good players don’t like sitting on the bench for long.

I’m not saying FSG are perfect but I will say this I wouldn’t feel comfortable with new owners as sometimes you are better the devil you know.

I agree we could slip down the league after Klopp goes but the league is not what it was in the 90’s it is what it is.

[RedNoodle]

Post of the day Noods.

Probably one of my better and/or more upbeat posts.

[RedNoodle]

Well you are entitled to your opinion.

If you want a better bench you might have to ask Man City owners to join us and even then like with Chelsea it only lasts for so long as good players don’t like sitting on the bench for long.

I’m not saying FSG are perfect but I will say this I wouldn’t feel comfortable with new owners as sometimes you are better the devil you know.

I agree we could slip down the league after Klopp goes but the league is not what it was in the 90’s it is what it is.

I don't agree with that first bit. We have a net spend of around £20m p/a. We could/should have a much better bench without the need to spend Chelsea/Man City/Man U levels of money. The fact is that FSG want to do things on the cheap, and if we want to spend any kind of sizeable sum, we're going to have to sell to buy. We cannot/should not have to keep doing that.

Yes FSG have done some good things. But they are not perfect, and pretending otherwise is in my opinion going to end up in a nasty shock for quite a few as and when Klopp leaves.

The league may have changed, but we are still one of the world's biggest clubs and England's most successful club. We should be looking to win the big prizes no matter how much the league has changed.

[Insidious]

Pissed off at the thought Mbappe will probably end up at city and haaland at utd

Isn't Haaland's agent also Pogba's agent?

As talented as Haaland is, I wouldn't say that's a "sure thing" of a transfer. Haaland will also surely want Champion's League football and I don't think United can say with any degree of certainty that they will have that for the 21/22 season, though the Europa League does give them an extra route to the top European table should they get some luck with the draw - the year Mourinho's United won it was the easiest path to victory - insanely easy compared to what we had in the year we lost to Sevilla.

[HLOGI]

I don't agree with that first bit. We have a net spend of around £20m p/a. We could/should have a much better bench without the need to spend Chelsea/Man City/Man U levels of money. The fact is that FSG want to do things on the cheap, and if we want to spend any kind of sizeable sum, we're going to have to sell to buy. We cannot/should not have to keep doing that.

Yes FSG have done some good things. But they are not perfect, and pretending otherwise is in my opinion going to end up in a nasty shock for quite a few as and when Klopp leaves.

The league may have changed, but we are still one of the world's biggest clubs and England's most successful club. We should be looking to win the big prizes no matter how much the league has changed.

We will cross that bridge when Klopp leaves. For now I am not going to gaze into mythical crystal ball. I am looking at the facts. 3 title challenges in 10 years. We could have had 3 titles had it not been for City. 2 Champions Leavue finals one won. Europa league Final as well. Seems more then the previous 20 years. They are business people. They need their business to do well and they need to make money. They are not Roman or Sheiks but the sound and they spend well.

When Klopp leaves a new man will come if he doesn't work out they will bring one that does. The 2 managers that they had shortlisted recently showed that they also know about Manager. Klopp and Ancelotti. Ancelotti is a winner, Klopp is a winner. They didn't mug about trying to go for Joe who, twice in a row. They tried a young inexperienced and then went for a big gun. Good board decisions.

[HLOGI]

Isn't Haaland's agent also Pogba's agent?

As talented as Haaland is, I wouldn't say that's a "sure thing" of a transfer. Haaland will also surely want Champion's League football and I don't think United can say with any degree of certainty that they will have that for the 21/22 season, though the Europa League does give them an extra route to the top European table should they get some luck with the draw - the year Mourinho's United won it was the easiest path to victory - insanely easy compared to what we had in the year we lost to Sevilla.

If that is his agent I dont want him. But he is going to be one of the greatest 9s of all time. Ridiculous talent.

[justme]

Matip and Keita are on borrowed time. Shaqiri may as well leave in January. Hes never here any way.
secondly why did we change our physio? seems we have had loads more injuries than normal

[justme]

We miss Milners bite in midfield.. when we play half midfielders ie Jones and Firmino (whp spends his time in midfield)
We lack something.. Our best 3 have been Fabinho Henderson and Wijnaldum nothing special going forward. But they do protect us better.
You cant play Firmino with Jones or Minamino. You basically have 2 players doing the same job. I would personally go in with Cutis Jones in the number 9 role right now. and have 3 solid midfielders behind him. We could probably get away with Jota in a 4(when hes fit). he does play the spare man well.
I honestly dont see what Firmino offers, neve have really. Sure hes been a great link up player. But there are numerous games like today he offers nothing.

[RedNoodle]

We will cross that bridge when Klopp leaves. For now I am not going to gaze into mythical crystal ball. I am looking at the facts. 3 title challenges in 10 years. We could have had 3 titles had it not been for City. 2 Champions Leavue finals one won. Europa league Final as well. Seems more then the previous 20 years. They are business people. They need their business to do well and they need to make money. They are not Roman or Sheiks but the sound and they spend well.

When Klopp leaves a new man will come if he doesn't work out they will bring one that does. The 2 managers that they had shortlisted recently showed that they also know about Manager. Klopp and Ancelotti. Ancelotti is a winner, Klopp is a winner. They didn't mug about trying to go for Joe who, twice in a row. They tried a young inexperienced and then went for a big gun. Good board decisions.

"We'll cross that bridge when we come to it" is a dangerous philosophy to have be it in sport and/or business. In virtually every area of life "preparation is the key". What we could have won is irrelevant, other than the fact that there is a good chance we WOULD have won those things had we had the size and quality of squad that we should have, but haven't had for a while.

Yes FSG are business people, but their investment isn't going to pay off as handsomely for them if we suddenly go back to being also rans vs being multiple PL and/or CL winners in a short space of time.

The way you talk about FSG's possible approach to recruiting a manager post Klopp sounds very worrying if true as we'll become one of those big clubs who go through a long cycle of hiring and firing a string of managers every season or two, leading to no end of problems. Unless you can chuck 'oil funded' levels of money at things, you are unlikely to get any major success doing such a thing.

[Crimson Dynasty]

..... The fact is that FSG want to do things on the cheap, and if we want to spend any kind of sizeable sum, we're going to have to sell to buy. We cannot/should not have to keep doing that.

Yes FSG have done some good things. But they are not perfect, and pretending otherwise is in my opinion going to end up in a nasty shock for quite a few as and when Klopp leaves.

The league may have changed, but we are still one of the world's biggest clubs and England's most successful club. We should be looking to win the big prizes no matter how much the league has changed.


I mean,.......surely those can't be the only two options (that either they're "perfect", which no one claimed nor pretended they are, or that they are complete shite and should fuck off).

Also, acting like or claiming that they're doing things on the cheap or don't want to spend is a little rich considering the fact that we have the world's most expensive (and best) defender in our squad, the world's second most expensive (and BEST) goalkeeper in our squad and the world's 4th highest paid player overall (in Mo, and only paid less than Messi, Ronaldo and Mbappe).
Does that sound to you like a club that's doing things on the cheap?

Are they profiting from the club? Of course they are, and I would expect no less or any different.
They're businessmen and very good ones at that, and fact of the matter is (whether you or anyone else want to admit it or not) WE have also benefitted from them and their good business acumen - to the tune of an Anfield massive expansion and refurbishment project, a new state-of-the-art Training facility for both the senior team and the Academy.
Oh, and a couple of little other things known as Number 6 and Number 19 (after 30 long years).

I really don't get this notion of trying to paint them as the bad guys, when all it looks like is them trying to do right by us as much as they could.
Without them Klopp wouldn't be here. Klopp didn't hire himself.
And they've supported him to the hilt with everything he's needed on and off the field.

Perhaps some questions can be asked about transfer market decisions - especially in recent times - and while doing that we should also be honest enough to ask how much of Klopp's own stubbornness played a role in that too.

But I mean, please,...
Some reality and some perspective, guys.

[justme]

its a tad unfair when Chelsea and Man-city have owners who can simply waft away the loss of income regarding fans in the ground (tens of millions).. we cant sign anyone major because of it.. yes we did get Jota. but we will end recuperating most of the fee on Brewster and Orgi who may go in January. I feel Mane is likely to leave the summer. hes getting a bit stale in my opinion. But he needs to up his game like the other forwards.

[Insidious]

I feel Mane is likely to leave the summer. hes getting a bit stale in my opinion. But he needs to up his game like the other forwards.

Mane blew hot and cold with Southampton.

He'll have big performances yet this season, some of which will likely be in Europe.

[HLOGI]

"We'll cross that bridge when we come to it" is a dangerous philosophy to have be it in sport and/or business. In virtually every area of life "preparation is the key". What we could have won is irrelevant, other than the fact that there is a good chance we WOULD have won those things had we had the size and quality of squad that we should have, but haven't had for a while.

Yes FSG are business people, but their investment isn't going to pay off as handsomely for them if we suddenly go back to being also rans vs being multiple PL and/or CL winners in a short space of time.

The way you talk about FSG's possible approach to recruiting a manager post Klopp sounds very worrying if true as we'll become one of those big clubs who go through a long cycle of hiring and firing a string of managers every season or two, leading to no end of problems. Unless you can chuck 'oil funded' levels of money at things, you are unlikely to get any major success doing such a thing.

What else can I say should I imagine the world you are painting and ignore the tangible facts of what I am experiencing now with FSG? Crossing the bridge is not a philosophy in this case it is a response to your thoughts of what could/would/might happen.

For me the FSG debate is always flouted when there ate results like this but when we win 19 games in a row. Amass 97 and 99 points, go to back to back CL finals then it has nothing to do with FSG then it is all on Jurgen Klopp.

Klopp is the most successful manager we have had in the last 30 years. But he is part of a exodus system. He is not the sole reason. The club is the Manager, players, supporters, owners, backroom staff, coaches etc. All of these to a lesser or greater are a result of where we are today.

FSG is the first contributor as the owners as everyone that is there now is on their payroll Klopp included. It is only the fand who are not a result of FSG decisions (newer supporters may be).

When Klopp messes up let's say it and leave FSG out. He is great but not flawless so when he isn't leave FSG out.

[HLOGI]

its a tad unfair when Chelsea and Man-city have owners who can simply waft away the loss of income regarding fans in the ground (tens of millions).. we cant sign anyone major because of it.. yes we did get Jota. but we will end recuperating most of the fee on Brewster and Orgi who may go in January. I feel Mane is likely to leave the summer. hes getting a bit stale in my opinion. But he needs to up his game like the other forwards.

Bit harsh on Mane. Beginning of the season he won us many points. He has dropped a few games. But today he was one of our better players.

[HLOGI]

I mean,.......surely those can't be the only two options (that either they're "perfect", which no one claimed nor pretended they are, or that they are complete shite and should fuck off).

Also, acting like or claiming that they're doing things on the cheap or don't want to spend is a little rich considering the fact that we have the world's most expensive (and best) defender in our squad, the world's second most expensive (and BEST) goalkeeper in our squad and the world's 4th highest paid player overall (in Mo, and only paid less than Messi, Ronaldo and Mbappe).
Does that sound to you like a club that's doing things on the cheap?

Are they profiting from the club? Of course they are, and I would expect no less or any different.
They're businessmen and very good ones at that, and fact of the matter is (whether you or anyone else want to admit it or not) WE have also benefitted from them and their good business acumen - to the tune of an Anfield massive expansion and refurbishment project, a new state-of-the-art Training facility for both the senior team and the Academy.
Oh, and a couple of little other things known as Number 6 and Number 19 (after 30 long years).

I really don't get this notion of trying to paint them as the bad guys, when all it looks like is them trying to do right by us as much as they could.
Without them Klopp wouldn't be here. Klopp didn't hire himself.
And they've supported him to the hilt with everything he's needed on and off the field.

Perhaps some questions can be asked about transfer market decisions - especially in recent times - and while doing that we should also be honest enough to ask how much of Klopp's own stubbornness played a role in that too.

But I mean, please,...
Some reality and some perspective, guys.

Well said.

[justme]

Bit harsh on Mane. Beginning of the season he won us many points. He has dropped a few games. But today he was one of our better players.

Its not being harsh I just think hes not fully there at the minute. Maybe just a blip. But he needs to improve.

[HLOGI]

The thread has become about FSG and we overlooking key issues.

Roberto Firmino is the key issue. Klopp needs to drop him. Whether Jota is there or not. I rather have Mane through the middle, Ox wide and Salah. Or Jones, Salah and Mane as a rotating 3 until Jota is back. I will even take Minamino with Salah and Mane that is how bad Bobby has been over the last 16 months. He is running on reputation now and that is perhaps 2 or 3 golden years he had. The season Mane came up to 2019.

[skyebo]

I mean,.......surely those can't be the only two options (that either they're "perfect", which no one claimed nor pretended they are, or that they are complete shite and should fuck off).

Also, acting like or claiming that they're doing things on the cheap or don't want to spend is a little rich considering the fact that we have the world's most expensive (and best) defender in our squad, the world's second most expensive (and BEST) goalkeeper in our squad and the world's 4th highest paid player overall (in Mo, and only paid less than Messi, Ronaldo and Mbappe).
Does that sound to you like a club that's doing things on the cheap?

Are they profiting from the club? Of course they are, and I would expect no less or any different.
They're businessmen and very good ones at that, and fact of the matter is (whether you or anyone else want to admit it or not) WE have also benefitted from them and their good business acumen - to the tune of an Anfield massive expansion and refurbishment project, a new state-of-the-art Training facility for both the senior team and the Academy.
Oh, and a couple of little other things known as Number 6 and Number 19 (after 30 long years).

I really don't get this notion of trying to paint them as the bad guys, when all it looks like is them trying to do right by us as much as they could.
Without them Klopp wouldn't be here. Klopp didn't hire himself.
And they've supported him to the hilt with everything he's needed on and off the field.

Perhaps some questions can be asked about transfer market decisions - especially in recent times - and while doing that we should also be honest enough to ask how much of Klopp's own stubbornness played a role in that too.

But I mean, please,...
Some reality and some perspective, guys.

Great post Crimson.

[Nineteenx]

Bit harsh on Mane. Beginning of the season he won us many points. He has dropped a few games. But today he was one of our better players.

Very harsh on Mane, even though Jurgen has managed to play Mane, Mo and Bobby out of their early season form tinkering, Mane was still our best forward today, things that were seamless and done automatically last season aren't being done as they were or to the level they were this season, because we fucked about with them and disturbed important relationships and created uncertainty and hesitation where they wasn't any before or at the start of the season before those things were fucked about with

We have had a lot of injuries, but despite his brilliance, I think Jurgen panicked a little if i'm honest and changed a lot of things with the best players and relationships between them who were fit when he should have focused on our strengths and left them alone

[HLOGI]

Very harsh on Mane, even though Jurgen has managed to play Mane, Mo and Bobby out of their early season form tinkering, Mane was still our best forward today, things that were seamless and done automatically last season aren't being done as they were or to the level they were this season, because we fucked about with them and disturbed important relationships and created uncertainty and hesitation where they wasn't any before or at the start of the season before those things were fucked about with

This is 1 part you have said all along and I agree with you.

[Steveo]

How many goals have we scored this season from open play. Anyone know?

Be interesting know also to see who scored them and in what games.

[Crimson Dynasty]

Well said.


Great post Crimson.

Thanks.

FSG do have some things they should be held to account for, and I think they can still do some things better than they are now.
But there's no denying that their custodianship of the club has been a net positive overall for us fans and the club.

I for one have no problem freely admitting that at some point I truly did not believe I would ever see us lifting the title again in my lifetime.

And just for that alone (and them proving it wrong), they deserve the credit due to them for making that possible.

[RedNoodle]

I mean,.......surely those can't be the only two options (that either they're "perfect", which no one claimed nor pretended they are, or that they are complete shite and should fuck off).

Also, acting like or claiming that they're doing things on the cheap or don't want to spend is a little rich considering the fact that we have the world's most expensive (and best) defender in our squad, the world's second most expensive (and BEST) goalkeeper in our squad and the world's 4th highest paid player overall (in Mo, and only paid less than Messi, Ronaldo and Mbappe).
Does that sound to you like a club that's doing things on the cheap?

Are they profiting from the club? Of course they are, and I would expect no less or any different.
They're businessmen and very good ones at that, and fact of the matter is (whether you or anyone else want to admit it or not) WE have also benefitted from them and their good business acumen - to the tune of an Anfield massive expansion and refurbishment project, a new state-of-the-art Training facility for both the senior team and the Academy.
Oh, and a couple of little other things known as Number 6 and Number 19 (after 30 long years).

I really don't get this notion of trying to paint them as the bad guys, when all it looks like is them trying to do right by us as much as they could.
Without them Klopp wouldn't be here. Klopp didn't hire himself.
And they've supported him to the hilt with everything he's needed on and off the field.

Perhaps some questions can be asked about transfer market decisions - especially in recent times - and while doing that we should also be honest enough to ask how much of Klopp's own stubbornness played a role in that too.

But I mean, please,...
Some reality and some perspective, guys.

I've never said that they are one or the other. I've admitted that they've done some good things, but they have also done a number of things (both on and off the pitch) that I don't like and are currently causing us issues, which in my opinion could well get worse especially when Klopp leaves.

We have the world's most expensive defender and second most expensive goalkeeper because Barcelona were kind enough to pay a ludicrously inflated amount of money for Coutinho, never mind all the other money we've made from player sales to finance the likes of Mo and Jota. FSG did not go up to Jurgen, open up their wallet/cheque book and say "so Jurgen. How much money would you like from us so that you can build upon what you've already got?".

Yes our wages are not inconsequential, but that's because we've not only got some players on our books who are picking up a fair wedge despite not contributing quite a lot, but we've also got players like Milner who are on a huge wedge because we got them cheap/on a free, which sort of offsets our high wage bill that some like to bring up. I keep saying it but I'll say it again, we are the FIFTH richest club in the world, which should mean we are capable of spending a sizeable sum on fees AND wages, not just one or the other.

Yes they have done some good things, but they are doing so because it will end up benefiting them, not because they want to do these things out of the goodness of their heart. I understand how businesspeople work, but it's the fact that some are leaning more towards FSG doing things through the goodness of their heart/because they are great owners than I would like/than I personally think.

I still think they hired Klopp because of his record of doing things on the cheap. If there had been someone else who was even just a little bit as successful as he was, but were doing things on an even smaller budget, I fully believe that whoever that was, and not Klopp would have been hired.

Have FSG really provided Klopp with everything he needs? Hmmm. Our squad/bench tells me otherwise. If they had done what you say they have Klopp would not being having to use a load of young/untested players (some who many Reds have never heard of) in major games.

You have your view of the current situation and our owners, and I have mine. You say some reality and perspective are needed, and whilst I agree with others needing to get a grip on the first, I also say that people need to take on board who/what we are, who is running us, how they are running us, and why they are doing what they are doing.

[Insidious]

How many goals have we scored this season from open play. Anyone know?

Be interesting know also to see who scored them and in what games.

I don't, but I think Salah has 10, Jota 5, Mane 4 and Firmino 2 - with nobody else having scored more than one. That's goals in general by the way, not a breakdown of open play versus set pieces.

If that info is inaccurate and someone can correct it, be my guest.

[Nineteenx]

I don't, but I think Salah has 10, Jota 5, Mane 4 and Firmino 2 - with nobody else having scored more than one. That's goals in general by the way, not a breakdown of open play versus set pieces.

If that info is inaccurate and someone can correct it, be my guest.

Mane and Mo both have assists and have played vital roles in other goals/games, Bobby has a couple of vital assists too

[skyebo]

Salah 13
Jota 9
Mane 5
Minamino 3
Jones 3
OGs 3
Firmino 2
Robertson 1
Origi 1
Wijnaldum 1
Matip 1
Grujic 1
Van Dijk 1
Shaqiri 1

* All competitions*

[RedNoodle]

What else can I say should I imagine the world you are painting and ignore the tangible facts of what I am experiencing now with FSG? Crossing the bridge is not a philosophy in this case it is a response to your thoughts of what could/would/might happen.

For me the FSG debate is always flouted when there ate results like this but when we win 19 games in a row. Amass 97 and 99 points, go to back to back CL finals then it has nothing to do with FSG then it is all on Jurgen Klopp.

Klopp is the most successful manager we have had in the last 30 years. But he is part of a exodus system. He is not the sole reason. The club is the Manager, players, supporters, owners, backroom staff, coaches etc. All of these to a lesser or greater are a result of where we are today.

FSG is the first contributor as the owners as everyone that is there now is on their payroll Klopp included. It is only the fand who are not a result of FSG decisions (newer supporters may be).

When Klopp messes up let's say it and leave FSG out. He is great but not flawless so when he isn't leave FSG out.

Klopp is the main reason for our current success, but not the only reason. Anyone who says otherwise is either saying so because it harms their argument, or because they are an idiot. It's unlikely that we do anywhere near as well as we have if we had virtually any other manager in charge of us, even if FSG did everything else the same.

Klopp isn't flawless, but FSG have more flaws, despite them having done a fair few good things. I don't see why some are getting so worked up about my opinion. It's not as if I've said "FSG are ****ing useless!!! They are ruining our club and I want them out asap!!!!! :mad:".

I think they could/should be doing more when it comes to providing us/Klopp with a squad that is befitting of the most successful club in England and the fifth richest club in the world. That's all.

[Steveo]

Cheers Sid and Skye

Talking all comps

But am more interested in goals from open play rather than ones from set pieces - corners free kicks or penalties.

[HLOGI]

I didn't like Bobby pre Klopp. He came alive once Mane and the original revolution came. He was part if the fab 4 Lama, Couta, Mane himself. We had not yet had the respect of others so we hurt teams on the counter. Bobby was a trick, coming deep and playing mostly 1 or 2 touches mostly back to a passer who would then spring Mane or Sturridge in the earlier days. Or he would swivel and be the passer.
When Salah came teams were still pressing us high and not showing respect so now we had devastating runners and 2 clever Brazilians concorting behind them. We had lots of space. After we reached the final in 18 teams changed how they played against us. We had Van Dijk and Allison and a midfield if Fab, Gini and Hendo gladiators in the park.

So we turned into a continental possession based team as teams were sitting deeper and deeper and hoping for moments. We then began to grind it results. But Bobby with less and less space started to look ineffective because what we now needed was a goal poacher. It has been fine whilst Mo and Mane banged in theirs. But as the months have gone he has been exposed. He has also list pace imo.

[HLOGI]

Klopp is the main reason for our current success, but not the only reason. Anyone who says otherwise is either saying so because it harms their argument, or because they are an idiot. It's unlikely that we do anywhere near as well as we have if we had virtually any other manager in charge of us, even if FSG did everything else the same.

Klopp isn't flawless, but FSG have more flaws, despite them having done a fair few good things. I don't see why some are getting so worked up about my opinion. It's not as if I've said "FSG are ****ing useless!!! They are ruining our club and I want them out asap!!!!! :mad:".

I think they could/should be doing more when it comes to providing us/Klopp with a squad that is befitting of the most successful club in England and the fifth richest club in the world. That's all.

Read. I said most successful. I said not sole reason. U are using Klopp as a shield to attack FSG. U hang all the success on him but all the failure on them. No one knows where we would have been without Klopp. He us the best Manager I have seen in 30 years. Kenny I was young so dont remember the era so much though I was alive. Rafa was good, Houlier did what he did
I liked Evan and thought Brendan did okay. Is Jurgen the bomb of course. But I will criticize when he messes up.

FSG has given you a league title. Could have been back to back but for City. I that doesn't float your boat it sure does mine.

[HLOGI]

Klopp is the main reason for our current success, but not the only reason. Anyone

I think they could/should be doing more when it comes to providing us/Klopp with a squad that is befitting of the most successful club in England and the fifth richest club in the world. That's all.

They have. Are we not top of the league again this time of the year for the 3rd season in a row. But for a dodgy offside and penalty the oiubts total could have been much higher. It is not our birthright to win anything. The owners won't ign nilly willy. We also dont know Klopp hand in all if this. Let us see when they break the bank again how stingy they are. Squad is depleted due to injuries btw.

We have Keita and Ox. 100 million in total not available. All money spent by FSG. They sign who Klopp wants when he wants. Not when you want and what you want.

[skyebo]

Cheers Sid and Skye

Talking all comps

But am more interested in goals from open play rather than ones from set pieces - corners free kicks or penalties.

No problem Steveo.

[Crimson Dynasty]

......

Yes they have done some good things, but they are doing so because it will end up benefiting them, not because they want to do these things out of the goodness of their heart. I understand how businesspeople work, but it's the fact that some are leaning more towards FSG doing things through the goodness of their heart/because they are great owners than I would like/than I personally think.

I still think they hired Klopp because of his record of doing things on the cheap. If there had been someone else who was even just a little bit as successful as he was, but were doing things on an even smaller budget, I fully believe that whoever that was, and not Klopp would have been hired.


That's a hell of an indictment of Klopp's abilities as a manager.

So you think they hired him because he's cheap and has a record of doing things on the cheap as opposed to.....oh, I don't know.... the fact that he's a really good manager whose teams have a playing style that excites fans and keeps them engaged and whose philosophy fits in well with what they were looking for?

Damn.

Poor Jurgen.

And here I thought he was one of the best managers in the world, who's not only proven it time and again (with us and also from before with Stuttgart going head-to-head with Bayern and beating them), and who, as a result of said credentials got the job over the likes of Ancelotti.
4 Time Champion's League winner Carlo Ancelotti at that.



....Have FSG really provided Klopp with everything he needs? Hmmm. Our squad/bench tells me otherwise.

As does the fact, as I pointed out, that they did not hesitate to spend that Coutinho money on the world's most expensive defender (a deal that was actually made and completed BEFORE the Coutinho deal and BEFORE we ever saw a single cent of any of that Barcelona money), and on the world's 2nd most expensive goalkeeper and one of the better holding midfielders not long after that (who's now our most reliable Center-Back), say different from you.
They could have sat on that Coutinho money (or most of it) and done nothing or brought in cut-rate players just to make their balance books look great at the end of the year if they're the profit-first money greedy types you're making them out to be, but they didn't, did they?

As also, does the fact that they were able to bring in a 45 Million player - who's our hottest attacking player at the moment - this past summer during the pandemic stoppage when virtually no clubs (not named Chelsea, anyway) were spending, along with a world class Champion's League winning midfield maestro.




If they had done what you say they have Klopp would not being having to use a load of young/untested players (some who many Reds have never heard of) in major games.

And how do you know that that's not actually Klopp's decision-making and doing, as opposed to some edict from FSG from above?

The impulse is to automatically assume that if something is not right then it's because of some way in which ownership hampered the manager or didn't support him, when we have examples from even just last week in our Champion's League game away in Denmark of the manager himself being stubborn and doing things that hurt the team.

Did he play starters in a meaningless dead rubber game last week because he had a thin bench because FSG have forced his hand by not giving him better players?
Or was he just being stubborn and silly like we've known him to be on occasion in a situation that had NOTHING to do with FSG or the support they've given him (or didn't).

If he played that thin bench in the game instead of the starters, and we lost that game 10-0, it would have made literally NO difference to either our Champion's League campaign nor our Premier league position.

Actually, scratch that. It would have HELPED our Premier league title push by giving our starters a much needed rest.



You have your view of the current situation and our owners, and I have mine. You say some reality and perspective are needed, and whilst I agree with others needing to get a grip on the first, I also say that people need to take on board who/what we are, who is running us, how they are running us, and why they are doing what they are doing.

Like I said, anyone who doesn't realize by now that FSG like any other owners are businesspeople who are here primarily first and foremost for profit, and not necessarily because they bleed Liverpool Red from their veins, is a naïve person who needs to check himself.

But the fact that they seem to realize that Liverpool being successful is not mutually exclusive with them making a profit - and in fact actually helps in that end - and that they work from that philosophy which in turn benefits us as a club.......that can't be a bad thing.

[RedNoodle]

Read. I said most successful. I said not sole reason. U are using Klopp as a shield to attack FSG. U hang all the success on him but all the failure on them. No one knows where we would have been without Klopp. He us the best Manager I have seen in 30 years. Kenny I was young so dont remember the era so much though I was alive. Rafa was good, Houlier did what he did. I liked Evan and thought Brendan did okay. Is Jurgen the bomb of course. But I will criticize when he messes up.

FSG has given you a league title. Could have been back to back but for City. I that doesn't float your boat it sure does mine.

I never said that you said sole reason. I'm just stating that he is the main (not sole) reason for our current success and that anyone who says otherwise is doing so for the reasons I stated. I'm not using Klopp in any fashion other than how I genuinely see things i.e. that he, not FSG is the main reason why we are having the success we are currently having. If Klopp was in charge with different, but not completely useless owners, I'd expect him to have as big an impact on the players at his disposal as he has under FSG, while if FSG had hired almost any other manager but did everything else the same, I do not think they would be having the success that they/we are currently enjoying.

FSG have played their part in giving us (and more importantly them) a league title. FSG on their own however (which is what your last paragraph effectively states) have not been solely responsible for our recent success. As far as I'm concerned the bulk of the praise should be laid at Klopp's feet, not theirs. If you want to do the reverse, be my guest.

[Nineteenx]

I didn't like Bobby pre Klopp. He came alive once Mane and the original revolution came. He was part if the fab 4 Lama, Couta, Mane himself. We had not yet had the respect of others so we hurt teams on the counter. Bobby was a trick, coming deep and playing mostly 1 or 2 touches mostly back to a passer who would then spring Mane or Sturridge in the earlier days. Or he would swivel and be the passer.
When Salah came teams were still pressing us high and not showing respect so now we had devastating runners and 2 clever Brazilians concorting behind them.

What's missing is Thiago, the Fab four would be back on and include him with his range, variety and disguise of passing, we only have Hendo and Thiago in all our midfielders who can actually pass a ball in ways that best suit the abilities of our other players.

We need to recruit other players with these abilities, it is staggering for me that we only have 2 capable of playing balls of the required standard that compliment our other players abilities and system of play.

I watched the Filthy's recent defeats against PSG and Leipzig in both games both those sides ran them ragged with constant high quality switches, switch out to the flank, back to a player in the centre then switched to the opposite flank, or out to the flank and switched right the way to the other flank.

For PSG every single player in every position played the switches to the very highest quality seamlessly and effortlessly, for Leipzig all the players except their 2 CBs, it's bordering on criminal that we only have Hendo and Thiago in midfield who can, Virgil at CB (we miss his long diagonals as much as his defending) and Trent (not as often as he should) at RB and Robbo very sporadically and occasionally at LB who can

Edit: Re Virgil take todays game for example, Fulham pressed and always had a player pressing Hendo to stop his switches and balls over the top, not a new tactic, but last season, the ball would just go back to Virgil who'd play a precision top quality long diagonal right to Mo's chest to turn the opposition or over the top for Mane or Mo

[HLOGI]

Wow on all the parts highlighted here Crimson Red. Red Noodle has stuck hIS boot in. He has always had a FSG agenda but today he came full force, with no substantiation, but has just exploded all his dislike for the owners. What a wow.

I rest my case on this. FSG have brought the most joy to me as a Liverpool supporter. I have seen them dismantle oligarchs and season upon season made us powerful and relevant again. I rest.

[Crimson Dynasty]

i never said that you said sole reason. I'm just stating that he is the main (not sole) reason for our current success and that anyone who says otherwise is doing so for the reasons i stated. I'm not using klopp in any fashion other than how i genuinely see things i.e. That he, not fsg is the main reason why we are having the success we are currently having. If klopp was in charge with different, but not completely useless owners, i'd expect him to have as big an impact on the players at his disposal as he has under fsg, while if fsg had hired almost any other manager but did everything else the same, i do not think they would be having the success that they/we are currently enjoying.

Fsg have played their part in giving us (and more importantly them) a league title. Fsg on their own however (which is what your last paragraph effectively states) have not been solely responsible for our recent success. As far as i'm concerned the bulk of the praise should be laid at klopp's feet, not theirs. If you want to do the reverse, be my guest.

I mean, you can't have it both ways, mate.

You can't on the one hand argue that all the success we've had in recent seasons has been largely down to Klopp and his managerial abilities, and then when it's pointed out to you, for example that Klopp wouldn't be here if FSG hadn't hired him, you then turn around and argue (as you did a little before), that they only hired him because of his record of doing things on the cheap - which entirely undercuts the notion that he's a good manager, as opposed to just a really cheap option.

Which is it?
Is he a a good manager responsible for our success (in which case, FSG therefore also DO deserve the credit they're due for not only hiring him, but also picking him out prior to that and supporting him after it)?

Or was he just a cheap option who somehow managed to luck himself into some success the past couple of years against the grain of FSG cheapness and reluctance to spend when he needed them to?

These two positions can't live in the same reality, you do know that, right?

Either he's a good manager or he's not (and just a cheap guy who happened to be lucky).
And if he's good, then you're not being very honest in not giving FSG the credit they're due in hiring him and supporting him.

[HLOGI]

What's missing is Thiago, the Fab four would be back on and include him with his range, variety and disguise of passing, we only have Hendo and Thiago in all our midfielders who can actually pass a ball in ways that best suit the abilities of our other players.

We need to recruit other players with these abilities, it is staggering for me that we only have 2 capable of playing balls of the required standard that compliment our other players abilities and system of play.

I watched the Filthy's recent defeats against PSG and Leipzig in both games both those sides ran them ragged with constant high quality switches, switch out to the flank, back to a player in the centre then switched to the opposite flank, or out to the flank and switched right the way to the other flank.

For PSG every single player in every position played the switches to the very highest quality seamlessly and effortlessly, for Leipzig all the players except their 2 CBs, it's bordering on criminal that we only have Hendo and Thiago in midfield who can, Virgil at CB (we miss his long diagonals as much as his defending) and Trent (not as often as he should) at RB and Robbo very sporadically and occasionally at LB who can

19 u love Bobby. Dont like Fabinho. So on that premise I won't engage your insight. I do think from time to time you provide solid footballing talk and tactics but as soon as you use it to show up someone you dont like or you want defend the one you do, you have lost me as a listener.

Not that it matters but I will ignore your football brain until you stop pimping an idea using above.

[HLOGI]

On a side note. Love the thread length and energy going about. As lovely as it has been since those Hodgson days and B-Rod all abroad. Lol. Threads have been biting in these 97/99 points days.

[Nineteenx]

19 u love Bobby. Dont like Fabinho. So on that premise I won't engage your insight. I do think from time to time you provide solid footballing talk and tactics but as soon as you use it to show up someone you dont like or you want defend the one you do, you have lost me as a listener.

Not that it matters but I will ignore your football brain until you stop pimping an idea using above.

That wasn't any kind of dig at Fabinho, all our other midfielders bar Hendo and Thiago are incapable of playing those kind of balls to the required standard, they're not on their own, Bacon face at UAE FC has been attempting them a lot this season and failing miserably at it, but he has quite spectacular ability at other types of passing from other areas that only Thiago of our current midfielders has

[HLOGI]

That wasn't any kind of dig at Fabinho, all our other midfielders bar Hendo and Thiago are incapable of playing those kind of balls to the required standard, they're not on their own, Bacon face at UAE FC has been attempting them a lot this season and failing miserably at it, but he has quite spectacular ability at other types of passing from other areas that only Thiago of our current midfielders has

Agree there is no dig at Fab in your post. That is not the point I am making. I'm say9ng that as it appears you have love of Bobby so would debate every footballing manual to show horn him into the side. Vice versa with Fabinho you will show everything to try and convince that he is not good enough.

So on that your response on my is very analytical I must say but with clear bias towards those 2 arguments. So I dont have a problem whether you love Bobby or any player and dislike others or not. You have your thoughts I respect that. But in terms of a debate or talk on tactics, formation, players etc. I will stand aside as it sometimes appears that your premise is based on bias no matter its eloquence. So I wont engage and talk football with you. I will talk Liverpool with you because that is one of our true lives and that means you are a brother. But the dissection of football etc. I look pass. Think this is the most we have commented on each others post in like 12 months since the time we had a previous spat lol.

[HLOGI]

That wasn't any kind of dig at Fabinho, all our other midfielders bar Hendo and Thiago are incapable of playing those kind of balls to the required standard, they're not on their own, Bacon face at UAE FC has been attempting them a lot this season and failing miserably at it, but he has quite spectacular ability at other types of passing from other areas that only Thiago of our current midfielders has

I see what you mean about the passing range. Switching etc. Football is not just for passers and switchers there us also place Gatuso, Makalele types. Fabinho is those types. He merits his place imo but I understand now finally where you coming from. Think if you played football you would have been an attacker/maverick type. I see the type of players you admire most and the ones you maybe feel could be better. Peace my brother. I like bacon face though. lol.

[RedNoodle]

@Crimson

A sad indictment of Klopp?!?!? You taking what I said in that fashion shows me that you're not interested in taking things as they are obviously meant, but just want to twist things in order to suit your (in my opinion) blinkered/flawed arguments.

FSG hiring somebody else who might have had a reasonable amount of success, but did so on even more of a budget than Klopp did has obviously got sweet FA to do with Klopp's ability, but everything to do with FSG trying to attain success as cheaply as possible, which is why they acquired us in the first place. That is something that is the modus operandi of many/most business people, especially those involved in big business.

The reason they spent the Coutinho money straight away is exactly the same reason Kenny did that with the Torres money, and Rodgers with the Suarez money, because if we had let any of our best players at the time leave and not replaced them, not only would there have been serious issues with our owners and each of those managers, but our fanbase would have also been seriously p***ed off. Given what we've 'spent' under FSG, if you think that FSG would have sanctioned the acquisition of the likes of VVD and Alisson without knowing that Coutinho was on his way, you are seriously naive.

Yes we brought Jota, But again, considering our very low net spend since Klopp arrived, the fact we've not signed a load of players, the fact we're the PL champions, have made record revenue, have signed one of the largest sponsorship deals ever, and are already the fifth richest club in the world (something that makes Covid a fair bit less relevant than if we were say Dagenham and Redbridge), again Klopp/we would have been seriously p***ed off if we had not signed someone to help out our attack, which not only largely consisted of just three players, but wasn't/isn't getting enough assistance from those behind them.

I believe what I say about Klopp not being backed as much as some believe he's been as no half decent/sane manager would want a bench full of sub par, inexperienced/young, aging, or unfit players, especially given the style of football he plays. Anyone who says otherwise is being disingenuous in the extreme. Then on top of that you only have to look at what we've spent and when we've spent it. We've had a few obvious areas that have needed addressing (long before Covid could be used as an excuse) and yet we've still had seasons where we've 'spent' very little, and a few transfer windows where we've spent sweet FA despite having deficiencies. Again if you're telling me this was Klopp's choice you are being extremely/purposely disingenuous.

Why Klopp played the players he did recently is a completely different issue. Why he did that is anyone's guess. He has the occasional brain fart, and it's quite possible that in that instance he just had yet another one.

Nobody has said that our owners aren't first and foremost businesspeople, or that us being successful and FSG doing likewise in terms of their investment is mutually exclusive. All that has been said is that FSG are not 'perfect', have not backed Klopp as much as some like yourself would have others believe, and that if we don't want to unnecessarily risk things going tits up, they should give Klopp the means (without having to raise fund through selling players) in order to address any issues in our first XI, and to beef up our squad, as the way things are looking it could well be the reason for us not defending our title this season and/or going far in the CL, especially as the overall quality on show from virtually everybody at the moment is between poor and very inconsistent.

[Crimson Dynasty]

@Crimson

......
The reason they spent the Coutinho money straight away is exactly the same reason Kenny did that with the Torres money, and Rodgers with the Suarez money, because if we had let any of our best players at the time leave and not replaced them, not only would there have been serious issues with our owners and each of those managers, but our fanbase would have also been seriously p***ed off. Given what we've 'spent' under FSG, if you think that FSG would have sanctioned the acquisition of the likes of VVD and Alisson without knowing that Coutinho was on his way, you are seriously naive.

Yes we brought Jota, But again, considering our very low net spend since Klopp arrived, the fact we've not signed a load of players, the fact we're the PL champions, have made record revenue, have signed one of the largest sponsorship deals ever, and are already the fifth richest club in the world (something that makes Covid a fair bit less relevant than if we were say Dagenham and Redbridge), again Klopp/we would have been seriously p***ed off if we had not signed someone to help out our attack, which not only largely consisted of just three players, but wasn't/isn't getting enough assistance from those behind them........


Just a few things here...

1) FSG didn't have to buy (specifically) Virgil or Allison. They could have spent (slightly) less to get virtually anyone else on the market, as anyone we got for goalie would have been an improvement over Mignolet/Karius and anyone we got for the backline would have been an improvement over Lovren/Matip et al.

We got Allisson and Van Dijk specifically because those were the two that Klopp wanted.
And Klopp wanted them knowing they were NOT cheap options (so there goes your "He was hired because he works cheap" theory)....and regardless of that FSG spent anyway, what it cost to get them.
How is that not supporting your manager in the transfer market?

And a second part of this, is your suggestion or implication that it was the Coutinho money and if it wasn't for that (or the fact that we knew it was coming) they wouldn't have spent.

RE :-


>>>>", if you think that FSG would have sanctioned the acquisition of the likes of VVD and Alisson without knowing that Coutinho was on his way, you are seriously naive."

That's nonsense.
Sorry to say, but...

We were trying to get Van Dijk from the previous Summer transfer window before, when we got slapped on the wrist by the League for tapping up. Remember?
Coutinho was still very much a member of our team then, and even though there were whispers of him wanting to leave, there was no idea that we would be getting any money for him (or how much) by the time we started looking into getting Van Dijk from Southampton at the end of the previous season before we got him.

So again how does that square with your, "...we only got him, because we got Coutinho money, or knew we were eventually getting Coutinho money", theory....when the reality is that we had tried to get Virgil already long before there was an inkling of anything like "Coutinho money"??
Wasn't that their own money they were planning on spending to get him back then?

"Coutinho money" didn't start to become a "thing" until the early part of the following season when rumours started that Barcelona might indeed be interested in getting him and he likewise started making noise about leaving.
That was long after we first tried to get Virgil.

2) Again, you still haven't explained or corroborated how you're so sure that the fact that we have a thin bench, is entirely the fault of FSG not backing him (despite all evidence to the contrary) versus it being a case of Klopp himself just being stubborn (something we've literally observed from him as recently as LAST WEEK, going all the way back to when he persisted with going with Karius/Migs in goal when we all knew they wasn't up to the task, and also when he kept insisting or believing he could draw the best out of Lovren or the likes of Moreno. We even see it now with his insistence on Bobby.)

3) My assertion that FSG have backed Klopp is not just an opinion, it's a FACT that's backed by actual evidence of how much our current squad is worth, and are paid and how how we've gone for players that Klopp has asked for in the market and not hesitated to pay what was asked for (within reason, and within the bounds of our financial structure).
WE can argue all day about how much that support has been and whether in either of our opinion it's been "enough". We can even argue about whether said support has actually been taken advantage of when it was there (in terms of Klopp's own role in all this), but let's not argue about what's actually happened and can be proven by fact, which is the idea that FSG have indeed supported the manager........that THEY hired..........because of his managerial abilities first and foremost.

(....and not just because he was going to save them a couple of quid, despite them having spent more on just two players for him than some clubs spend on their entire squads)

[RedNoodle]

@Crimson

I didn't get much sleep last night, which can have serious issues for me, so I'm off for a wash and then getting into bed, where I hope I'll fall asleep (I wouldn't bet on it). I might reply to your last message (today or tomorrow), but then again I might not. If not, we'll have to agree to disagree. You have your opinion, I have mine. I just wish FSG would open up their wallet a bit more as I'm worried that them not doing so will ultimately cost us in a season where we should really be able to defend our title, and surely we all just want what's best for the team/club.

[Steveo]

Personally I can see good points both of you are making.

Just a couple of mine...

We were trying to bring in Virgil in the summer of 2017 JUST as Coutinho was virtually out the door to Barca. Surely we all remember that. The geezer even went on strike in August to push through his move.

No point suggesting that we buy Virgil without selling Coutinho - because we all know that would not have happened.

We bought the ONLY genuine players that were the GO TO players - VVD and Alisson - for this club off the back of that massive sale.

Whether it is Klopp or FSG is anyone’s guess - but I would think it obvious who the likeliest culprit is...

We haven’t invested at a level you would expect relative to our recent success. Klopp has us punching far above our weight in the market. That isn’t much of a debate.

That is not to say that we should be blowing our wedge in stupid fashion BUT rather to say that HAD we had a little more in the kitty than to just “pay the bills” on the back of number 6 ( second successive Cl final ) in summer 2019 - we would be in a far stronger position now in terms of personnel.

Just because someone has witnessed their best Liverpool under FSG has little bearing on that fact. We have had teams that won the lot without huge outlays and teams that won zip after spending a relative fortune.

Had we invested more over the last 2 seasons we would be far more capable of winning our second title in 30 years - that is the point.

FSG managed our first - BUT couldn’t keep their power dry for even 2 seconds. Straight in with the Project big picture!! naughty boys..

As mentioned many many times - they have done plenty of good things but have also left plenty to be desired. Their crowing glory - Jurgen Klopp and for him I will be eternally grateful. Just want and expect more.

[redebreck]

Scott Parker cosplaying as a Bond villain.


I like that navy jacket and polo neck combo.

Hmmmmmmm :)

[redebreck]

Klopp is the main reason for our current success, but not the only reason. Anyone who says otherwise is either saying so because it harms their argument, or because they are an idiot. It's unlikely that we do anywhere near as well as we have if we had virtually any other manager in charge of us, even if FSG did everything else the same.

Klopp isn't flawless, but FSG have more flaws, despite them having done a fair few good things. I don't see why some are getting so worked up about my opinion. It's not as if I've said "FSG are ****ing useless!!! They are ruining our club and I want them out asap!!!!! :mad:".

I think they could/should be doing more when it comes to providing us/Klopp with a squad that is befitting of the most successful club in England and the fifth richest club in the world. That's all.

+ 1