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Thread: Brexit thread 2 Electric Boogaloo

  1. #141
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    The justification for a re-run from remain is more one of hope than an evidence based one as I see it.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCTV View Post
    You had a devicive referendum, one side lost the other side won.
    If you dont let the winners win in a democracy, you dont have a democracy.

    Britain not leaving would imo be far worse of an outcome than no deal Brexit.
    It could also likely be so for the eu and its institutional interests.
    The problem was that a referendum goes pretty starkly against the whole point of a representative democracy. I think it was idiotic to put it to a people's vote to begin with, especially when implemented as poorly as this. I don't know if the result will benefit the UK over a long period of time or not - hard to say. What I do know is that one side of the referendum covered a very wide range of views on the topic - the "Leave" side (No deal, Norway, Ukraine, Switzerland-style Brexit, custom Brexit and so on), while the other was hugely specific - nothing changes. At the end of the day, as much as remoaners get on my nerves for not accepting the will of the people (even though I think a people's vote on such an issue is moronic), I think they have a point when they say that the options put before the people were not the ones which will most likely end up taking place. Or at least those options were in no way clearly laid out, since the Brexiteers had about as much of an idea as to what to do in case of success as I do after asking out a girl.

    Quote Originally Posted by CCTV View Post
    Well that's a pity. I cant find them old threads on the forum. I predicted both even with the polling data suggesting otherwise.
    To be fair, you do predict more than your fair share of seemingly absurd things, like Suarez coming back the summer before last, so it wouldn't surprise me the least bit if you indeed got these ones right. For what it's worth, I was fairly certain Trump would win the nomination after he announced his campaign, though I did think Hilary would narrowly win.

    Quote Originally Posted by CCTV View Post
    The justification for a re-run from remain is more one of hope than an evidence based one as I see it.
    For a lot of people yes. But then again the justification for a Brexit vote for many was surely the Norway model, no?
    Etiam si omnes, ego non

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balinkay View Post
    The problem was that a referendum goes pretty starkly against the whole point of a representative democracy. I think it was idiotic to put it to a people's vote to begin with, especially when implemented as poorly as this. I don't know if the result will benefit the UK over a long period of time or not - hard to say. What I do know is that one side of the referendum covered a very wide range of views on the topic - the "Leave" side (No deal, Norway, Ukraine, Switzerland-style Brexit, custom Brexit and so on), while the other was hugely specific - nothing changes. At the end of the day, as much as remoaners get on my nerves for not accepting the will of the people (even though I think a people's vote on such an issue is moronic), I think they have a point when they say that the options put before the people were not the ones which will most likely end up taking place. Or at least those options were in no way clearly laid out, since the Brexiteers had about as much of an idea as to what to do in case of success as I do after asking out a girl.
    The vote was fairly simple, leave the eu or remain. I'd argue that when people voted to join the EU the stage was similarly set. Dont join nothing changes, join and things would change. Do you think the electorate back then were voting on changes they'd fully understand or could envisage? I would say they didnt and that much of Brexit is in fact a reaction to what joining the EU has meant over time. The eu has altered since they joined up. Such is the nature of change.

    Another referendum would be interesting and even more devicive. I'd suggest it will only compound that problem as the data or polls do not indicate what remainers believe to be the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Balinkay View Post
    To be fair, you do predict more than your fair share of seemingly absurd things, like Suarez coming back the summer before last, so it wouldn't surprise me the least bit if you indeed got these ones right. For what it's worth, I was fairly certain Trump would win the nomination after he announced his campaign, though I did think Hilary would narrowly win.
    Interesting choices here Bali, Suarez, yes I'd take and wanted him back. Though in recent years even I have acknowledged that is my own wishful thinking. I wouldn't say I made that prediction as you claim, nor that we are on similar planes of prediction tbf. There is far more data available in one instance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Balinkay View Post

    For a lot of people yes. But then again the justification for a Brexit vote for many was surely the Norway model, no?
    Looking at the minority of elected mps in favour of Brexit I'd say it wasnt May's deal with which Brexit was voted for. Those who favoured Brexit seem to have outlined their position clearly, a good deal or a no deal. The role of negotiations was to deliver a deal that would be better than a no deal exit. These negotiations have provided May's deal or no deal. It seems those who represent Brexit voters in parliament are in favour of a no deal as it stands and are giving May till the deadline to offer up a better deal. May's negotiated deal seems to have been roundly criticised.

    It seems the eu is also adamant its May's deal or no deal Brexit.

    So they could have a referendum.
    However it would be do you want May's deal or a no deal Brexit which would be the correct referendum surely?

  4. #144
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  5. #145
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  6. #146
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    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/c1bb68fa-4bed-11e9-bbc9-6917dce3dc62

    How Theresa May decided she was willing to accept a no-deal Brexit

  7. #147
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    The arguments about the role of referendums in a representative democracy are interesting ones. It's a valid consideration. I've commented earlier.

    Brexit though highlights a disconnect between the public at large and their representatives in the main.

    SH said he doesnt believe the UK has a democracy representative of the word. A view likely supported in the main such is peoples perception of politics as cited earlier across Europe and applies also to the wider world. This rings more true with people on the traditional left than the right.

    It's not surprising to me that the negotiations have occurred as they have done.
    The eu is institutionally challenged by Brexit. As such it behaves as institutions do when under threat, it prioritises the institutions desires and wants at the expense of those who it represents.

    The eu would always play hard over Brexit. It can survive Britain leaving, it likely cannot survive further exits from the union.
    Britain should it leave will offer an avenue and a potential partnership to others should they so chose to leave.

  8. #148
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    Completely agree that joining the EU on a referendum is just as absurd as leaving it. Smells of politicians just washing their hands and not taking the responsibility they are being paid to take. Why the hell am I paying taxes if they're going to ask me to solve all the tough problems?

    Re: Suarez, of course they are different predictions - one's football, the other's fuckball.

    A renewed referendum on "no-deal" vs "May's deal" also makes sense. I was operating under the impression that her deal wasn't even an option anymore and it was literally "no deal" vs "stay". That dude who likes to yell "ORDAAA ORDAAAA" in parliament said he wouldn't let the other scoundrels discuss "May's deal" again.

    While I do agree the EU is acting in its own interests, I don't particularly see what it's doing to the detriment of those it's meant to represent, though I don't really know how the negotiations are going. Is there something glaringly bad for EU citizens in the Union's stated position on Brexit. Maybe it's acting against the best interest of the UK people. In fact I assume that's what they're doing.

    Edit: Concerning the divide between the people and the parliament - I saw / heard about some study that showed something like 17% of the populace were backing some Brexit position, while over 50% of parliament wanted it to happen. USSR levels of representation in power right there.
    Etiam si omnes, ego non

  9. #149

  10. #150
    The first referendum people were blind.
    Ill-informed

    Forage's propaganda

    1. £350million a day nhs
    2. Immigration

    Today the Brit public are more savvy about what the vote is about.

    If there was a 2nd referendum, when the 2nd referendum happens, Britain will remain.

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