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Thread: Captain

  1. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianlfc View Post
    But he's not.
    You'd need to be blind to see this Liverpool team is not as good with Henderson out of the team.
    Now we have Tiago there will be more options which is good for all the team.
    So stop bloody fighting over silly stuff !!
    I'm more concerned about coping without Van Dijk for the rest of the season.
    If you're not sure what to do with the ball, just put it in the net, and we'll talk about the other options later... Bob Paisley.

  2. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyebo View Post
    I'm more concerned about coping without Van Dijk for the rest of the season.
    Shit happens,it's how we cope. We may concede more this season (and we weren't water tight with Virgil this season) so it's more pressure on the attackers to score more than we concede.
    On things for sure,it'll be fun watching us this season for the neutral.

  3. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by shminkyred View Post
    cant believe this debate is still going on.....
    win ratio

    https://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/uefa-champions-league-liverpool-absence-jordan-henderson/16rpa76rrk2gt18tegku2d3x9q#:~:text=In%20the%2012%2 0games%20he,him%20it%2052.3%20per%20cent.

    82.4 per cent
    In the 12 games he didn't appear, Klopp's side won seven games. With Henderson, Liverpool's win percentage is 82.4 per cent while without him it 52.3 per cent.8 Mar 2020


    I bet if you go back in time you will see similar stats..

    as Captains go ....those old boys were in the best team in the World at the time...and Henderson was the driving Force in the dressing room for a team that hadn't done something for 30 years???/

    Why is it even a conversation?
    Very compelling and illuminating
    "If Everton were playing at the bottom of my garden, i'd close the curtains”

  4. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev0909 View Post
    Imagine having a prime gerrard in this team!

    Don't knock gerrard because he had to play with shite most of the time, never as good team as this.

    He won /dragged the team through games by himself, when has henderson done that?

    2005 but i guess we can forget about that now too?

    Oh also gerrard was better over a longer period- henderson nearly got swapped with dempsey... wouldn't look as good in a none klopp team IMO

    Henderson isn't even the best midfielder here, thiago will prove that when fit, and a class above the rest.
    You misinterpreted things a little Kev, no-one has said anywhere that Hendo is a better player than Stevie who was an absolutely incredible player, all i've said is that your best player however brilliant as a player they are, doesn't necessarily make the best captain, in fact in most teams, including all the very best past Liverpool teams, the player most fans would consider the best player isn't/wasn't captain

    Look at the filthy with Ronaldo, he was their best player by a fucking mile, and in his time there he carried that shite through more games a season than Stevie did us, he wasn't their captain though was he?
    "If Everton were playing at the bottom of my garden, i'd close the curtains”

  5. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianlfc View Post
    Shit happens,it's how we cope. We may concede more this season (and we weren't water tight with Virgil this season) so it's more pressure on the attackers to score more than we concede.
    On things for sure,it'll be fun watching us this season for the neutral.
    That's been my issue for a few years, if Mane or Salah dry up, who gets the goals ? because midfield don't contribute in that department. Chelsea already have 8 different scorers this season which is the most in the premier league. Diogo may help, but it will have to be from the bench, unless he starts in midfield like the other day.
    If you're not sure what to do with the ball, just put it in the net, and we'll talk about the other options later... Bob Paisley.

  6. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by shminkyred View Post
    cant believe this debate is still going on.....
    win ratio

    https://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/uefa-champions-league-liverpool-absence-jordan-henderson/16rpa76rrk2gt18tegku2d3x9q#:~:text=In%20the%2012%2 0games%20he,him%20it%2052.3%20per%20cent.

    82.4 per cent
    In the 12 games he didn't appear, Klopp's side won seven games. With Henderson, Liverpool's win percentage is 82.4 per cent while without him it 52.3 per cent.8 Mar 2020


    I bet if you go back in time you will see similar stats..

    as Captains go ....those old boys were in the best team in the World at the time...and Henderson was the driving Force in the dressing room for a team that hadn't done something for 30 years???/

    Why is it even a conversation?
    I happen to agree that we are worse off without Hendo, but your post piqued my interest.

    Firstly the presentation of 7 wins from 12 as 52.3% when it's clearly 58.333%.
    Secondly we won so many games, such a skewing seems rather odd.

    At the time of the article I have us having

    Played 47 games
    Not winning 9

    With Henderson not winning 5
    Man city loss charity shield
    Napoli loss cl
    Manu draw pl
    Napoli draw cl
    Atletico loss cl

    Without Henderson not winning 4
    Villa loss efl (no seniors allowed to pay iirc, all kids)
    Shrewsbury draw fa cup 4th round (Jones and Neco the senior lads)
    Watford loss PL
    Chelsea 5th round (minamino, origi, lallana, jones, Williams, Adrian started)

    So I'd say there are likely more errors, or misleading impressions, in the piece.

    If we say/assume hendo played 34 and didn't play 12, we are seemingly missing a game ?
    Won 29/34 - 85.3%
    Won 8/12 - 75%

    Of those 4 games surely only the Watford game would be an indicator of without hendo ?

    1 draw and 1 loss occured with no senior players in the 11 - a lfc without any senior players, seems more than without hendo
    The loss to chelsea in the cup had 6 non best 11 starters. Imo 6 such players is more than without hendo too
    Without hendo, Cm2-take your pick over lallana/jones, trent, alisson, Salah & firmino)

    The loss v Watford on the other hand would be a game to include.

  7. #417
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    We were missing Mo for the game at Old toilet

    The loss in the first leg v Atletico was 100% the result of bringing in Fabinho at DM, Hendo was played out of the CM position he been playing so brilliantly and Fabinho was a disaster and came nowhere near the required level

    The second leg, we were winning at the point Hendo was subbed

    The Villa game showed again Klopp's midfield error in bringing Fabinho back in, the role had evolved hugely, in the orchestrating of the press and distribution and had been played as CM rather than DM and Fabinho simply can't play ghat role. Despite having the defence you raved on about and had a stat fest over being the reason we were winning games, while i insisted their record with Gomez was misleading because the press had been the best it ever has, that defence shipped 7 goals without that press
    "If Everton were playing at the bottom of my garden, i'd close the curtains”

  8. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nineteenx View Post
    We were missing Mo for the game at Old toilet

    The loss in the first leg v Atletico was 100% the result of bringing in Fabinho at DM, Hendo was played out of the CM position he been playing so brilliantly and Fabinho was a disaster and came nowhere near the required level

    The second leg, we were winning at the point Hendo was subbed

    The Villa game showed again Klopp's midfield error in bringing Fabinho back in, the role had evolved hugely, in the orchestrating of the press and distribution and had been played as CM rather than DM and Fabinho simply can't play ghat role. Despite having the defence you raved on about and had a stat fest over being the reason we were winning games, while i insisted their record with Gomez was misleading because the press had been the best it ever has, that defence shipped 7 goals without that press
    We were missing a RCB too v Watford, Lovren started. Those teams are still strong enough imo to be used.

    We were also missing Alisson v Atletico where Adrian's errors cost us. That would qualify as a without Alisson game but not a without hendo as I see it.
    Playing 45+mins counts as with in my books. There is an element of luck involved with these stats as n4c said and i agree they are not very robust. But can be useful all the same.

    Another topic, discussed before, it's too late now, goodnight.

  9. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev0909 View Post
    Isn't that captain fantastic's job?

    and 19x you're that clued up and think firmino is on fine form, and gomez and fabinho are shit (you've changed your tune now though havn't you darling?)

    very smart aren't you.

    Short memory? you have problems in the head? forget easily?

    Getting old mate?

    Hendersons better than gerrard LOOOOLZ
    No, it isn't. He tries to do it from time to time (to some success) but it's not his job. He's an enabler, not a flair player. If Alisson were our captain, you'd not be asking for him to do what I described. Hendo manages to win us the midfield battle, but he's not supposed to win the game on his own. Neither was Stevie in some of the positions and formations he played, but he did it anyway. Because he's Steven Fucking Gerrard.

    The last bit irks me - 19x isn't comparing them in terms of footballing quality, but rather in terms of leadership. Whether you agree with him or not, there's at least a debate to be had there. Disclaimer, I'm probably the biggest Hendo simp on here after 19x. Called him eventually being captain in 2012-ish (I think).
    Etiam si omnes, ego non

  10. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balinkay View Post
    No, it isn't. He tries to do it from time to time (to some success) but it's not his job. He's an enabler, not a flair player. If Alisson were our captain, you'd not be asking for him to do what I described. Hendo manages to win us the midfield battle, but he's not supposed to win the game on his own. Neither was Stevie in some of the positions and formations he played, but he did it anyway. Because he's Steven Fucking Gerrard.

    The last bit irks me - 19x isn't comparing them in terms of footballing quality, but rather in terms of leadership. Whether you agree with him or not, there's at least a debate to be had there. Disclaimer, I'm probably the biggest Hendo simp on here after 19x. Called him eventually being captain in 2012-ish (I think).
    He did it in lots of games last season, for crucial goals, he was the player who made the crucial early opener in the Champions League semi too, whether it was the press and an intervention in which he nicked the ball to one of our lads for him to assist, recycling the ball from a set piece, the pass before the assist that gave the player who made it the time and space to make it, an assist or scoring himself, Henderson was involved in a huge number of our most crucial goals last season. That's not me talking him up or over appraising him, it is the actual fact of what happened for those who can be honest about it and don't have the 'he took the armband after Stevie' axe to grind

    Kev kind of reminds me of how this forum used to be in the very bad old days, he's very like a lot of those posters, he gets an idea about a player and despite players obviously developing and new players coming in and it changing the landscape positively for certain players. Kev never ever sees any of that unlike normal, reasonable, intelligent people, he isn't able to process that new information and reform his view of or reassess a player, he will never change his mind or opinion on players, despite new information and changes and holds this bigotted belief that no-one else should, as though everyone should be as bigotted, narrow minded and limited in their ability to process new information as he is

    I don't have a thing for or against any player, I try to be fair and honest about every player as I see it, if a player I haven't thought was good good enough or can't do x y or z works on his game and works hard to evolve and develop and improves, or another player comes in and that new player and another in combination with the player who has deficiencies in his game in my view, will in my view be better for the team and the 2 players in combination with him will naturally operate in a way which prevent that players deficiencies from being exposed and being the problem they were prior to the new player arriving, i'll review and reassess my thinking on a player, without prejudice

    It's a weird place here at times, players train, work hard to evolve and develop, new players come in that help get the best out of players that maybe weren't that great before, that's football, it's always changing, but here it's like people develop set in stone prejudices against certain players and whatever that player does, they will never change their opinion of them. There are also the incredible 'anything Scouser born and bred is the best new thing ever and no wrong shalt ever be said about him' brigade, many of those in the darkest times were also in the 'thou shalt support the new manager even though shit and laud any signing he makes as the best ever' brigade too. Should have seen some of the arguments here with NWR over Jay now plays in League 2 for Tranmere Spearing
    "If Everton were playing at the bottom of my garden, i'd close the curtains”

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