Ajax v Liverpool (CL Match Thread)

[Nineteenx]

Not sure its worthwhile going back to the Gomez debate as it was a matter of fact that the best pairing had been VVD & Gomez if you used clean sheets and goals conceded.

It's absolutely worthwhile, as it shows just how incredibly flawed your trying to judge everything using solely stats is, Gomez is not a top defender, he is desperately lacking experience

A huge part of our defending is our team defending, our pressing and counter pressing, this hugely limits the amount of actual real defending our defenders have to do, in that period the press was simply incredible, look at the stats in the boxing day game v Leicester and their managing only 3 shots on goal and THAT was all about our team press and not letting Leicester even have a look at our Cbs for the entire game, not a result of the CB pairing, and there were numerous games in which our incredible team press and defending from the front restricted almost all teams to similar or even fewer chances to have a look at our CBs

https://www.liverpoolfc.com/match/2019-20/first-team/leicester-city-v-liverpool-live-matchday-blog

[Nineteenx]

On Jota, he needs more time for me, he's scored one and missed more absolutely golden chances than all our front three put together since he arrived, I think he's an incredible addition and will prove a brilliant signing, I was one of only a couple here to herald his signing as a brilliant one when it happened, most were entirely unimpressed and moaning about it, but how he hasn't scored at least 6 goals is criminal, contrast that to when Mo first arrived and was an unknown quantity to opposition defences in our set up in his first season and there's a chasm of difference

twice v Ajax midweek he had absolutely glorious opportunities in the time and space Mo Mane and Bobby can only dream about as their incredible abilities in our set up are so much more of a known quantity, he was inside the 18 yard box, clear of any defenders, the keeper rooted to his line right in the middle of the goal and had all the goal to aim at, he just had to pick a corner and pull the trigger and ended up not even getting off a shot on either golden opportunity, were that Bobby, Mo or Mane they would have got absolutely slated by the usual suspects on here

[CCTV]

If it aint broken don't fix it

If you know anything about the game and fully understand it, you simply don't move your best players from their best and most consistent positions

I'm finding a lot of the talk here right now pretty ridiculous to be honest, we're without Virgil and Allison and apparently the solution to making sure we cope with that as best we can isn't for all the players to work hard to make sure we do all the things our best 11 at their best do as well as possible and have as much continuity and familiarity in the team and rely on the relationships and understanding between as many of our best 11 as possible to help those coming in play as well as possible

Robbo has been excellent so far this season and looks to be taking his game to even higher levels, yet his relationship on the pitch with Mane, Mane's positions and the positions Mane drags opposition players into and how Mane presses and counter presses and defends with Robbo on that side is an absolutely key part of Robbo performing at his best and taking his game to those higher levels, but apparently the best way forward is to change the entire formation, and completely rip up our left side and all the understanding and team work and team bonds that have seen it become by far our strongest side in the past 2 seasons

The mind absolutely boggles, a football team is a living breathing organism, even moreso a team like ours whose strength is their collectively ability and playing as one.

If you move Mane you affect Robbo, you affect Gini, you affect Mo, you affect Mane, you affect the entire team, it's not FIFA or Championship Manager, which like you, rely solely on programmed stats and simply don't have the football understanding of the importance of player relationships and understanding and the incredible importance of that and how it facilitates each player performing at thieer best in a side with all the players combining as one

Klopp has deployed Mane on our right side since 16/17 and typically so as that our right side gets premium cover from him.
Salah works hard tracking back, but Mane is a beast and a better defender.
I find it odd that you are proposing that the PL has evolved beyond Manes ability and that he couldn't be Mane at rwf.
It's like Salah can't play CF, Thiago in a 2 man midfield. I do wonder how you propose such statements

I dont share your opinion that our lads are that inflexible, incapable of adapting and somewhat autistic. It's like you're suggesting theyd be exposed as frauds in such a change.
They are quality players.

Things do change we have Thiago and Jota have joined the ranks. Jota as statistical analysis has pointed out is a remarkably similar player to Mane on basic stats- before both moved to LFC.
Expected goals/assists, tackles etc.

I haven't seen the death of Robbo when Jota has been deployed. Your chaotic knock on effect is a bit tenuous imo.

[Nineteenx]

Must do your nut that Klopp rates Fabinho so highly

It's actually a huge concern to be honest, if he couldn't see how the team had evolved to much higher levels of performance and consistency in Fabinho's absence and a big part of that was Hendo in the centre orchestrating the press and making the play (in which he even surprised me) and that in Fabs first game back v Southampton the press had suddenly gone from it's incredible levels to absolute shit and the forwards and full backs were making the same runs they were with Hendo in the centre and were being regularly found and Fabinho was incapable of finding them with is limited distribution and lack of any kind of quality at the switch balls and attempted balls over the top Henderson had been playing with ease with incredible consistency, you really have to worry

In the first leg v Atletico, v Watford, every game after he came back into the centre, the forwards and full backs were making exactly the same runs and movement they'd been making for the past 20 odd games with incredible success and used to having their runs connected and Fab couldn't connect them at all as he doesn't have that type of passing in his locker, thank God we have Thiago now as he isn't alone, prior to Thiago's arrival we only had Hendo in our entire midfield options who could see those passes and play them with the required quality

Atletico scored early played a low block, really focused on stopping hendo Robbo and Trent and stood off Fabinho the entire game and just let him have it with time and space, like "Yeah, what you gonna do" teams know that aside from the incredibly rare occassion when Fab gets in his high destroyer position and can lift a much shorter ball over the top of the opposition defence from 10 yards outside their area for Mo or Mane he has absolutely nothing in his passing that can hurt opposition sides

[Nineteenx]

Klopp has deployed Mane on our right side since 16/17 and typically so as that our right side gets premium cover from him.
Salah works hard tracking back, but Mane is a beast and a better defender.
I find it odd that you are proposing that the PL has evolved beyond Manes ability and that he couldn't be Mane at rwf.
It's like Salah can't play CF, Thiago in a 2 man midfield. I do wonder how you propose such statements

I dont share your opinion that our lads are that inflexible, incapable of adapting and somewhat autistic. It's like you're suggesting theyd be exposed as frauds in such a change.
They are quality players.

Things do change we have Thiago and Jota have joined the ranks. Jota as statistical analysis has pointed out is a remarkably similar player to Mane on basic stats- before both moved to LFC.
Expected goals/assists, tackles etc.

I haven't seen the death of Robbo when Jota has been deployed. Your chaotic knock on effect is a bit tenuous imo.

Aston Villa 7-2 Liverpool, get your head out of your arse, what was that then? It was exactly what I'm talking about, where was Jota's press, counter press and defensive contribution, Fab's inability to make the play and getting caught ball watching and wandering off the outlet for the counter or transition he should have been picking up brutally exposed as teams were doing comfortably and continually in the last third of the 18-19 season until Hendo was brought back in and then teams again did comfortably and continually ever since Fab was brought back into CM

Nothing wrong with autism, I have a form of autism, my form if definitely an ability rather than a disability, it recognises patterns, numbers and all sorts of very important information for me, there's a UK program called 'The chase' 2 of 'the chasers' on that show are 2 of the top 3 quizzers in the world, they have the same type, the brain recognises and identifies and stores important information for them.

I first fell in love with Liverpool seeing them in the 77 European Cup run, my brain completely identified with the perfect working, flow, movement, passing, pressing and defending and attacking as a team of that side and that 20 odd game run with Hendo at CM last season is the first time in all those years it's seen it so perfectly again since. It registers, stores and remembers and sees very clearly passages of play, runs from players that have become common place and a big part of our play, it's probably a reason some people here think I'm being pedantic or don't get what I'm on about or don't see it, I see a lot that other people don't, I can't take too much credit for it in all truth, my brain does it for me, it registers the important information and best practice, and the best way to describe it is, it creates a memory, somehow how hangs it on a peg for me

When I'm watching a game of football, all that best practice with player actions, positioning runs, passing is right there stored, hung on pegs in my head, it instantly recognises when something isn't right from the stored memories of best practice, it's like having a video analysis team in your head when you're watching a game, except, instead of having to go trawling through footage to find best practice and what players should be doing or could have done better, it's all already there stored.

I know nobody else gets my Fabinho thing, but in my head I have all this stored information of seeing our press and counter press the best it has ever been, and having seen as many as 7 of our other midfielders through the midfield rotating positions naturally in that period take the right decisions and make sure they were in the right place every single time with the opposition player they were trying to set up for the counter or as the transition for the counter, I get that other people don't see that and I get why, but when I watch Fabinho, every game he plays in midfield and he wanders, gets caught ball watching, goes ahead of that player when he shouldn't when my head knows he is the danger for a successful transition and counter loads and loads of alarm bells start going off, exactly the same thing with Gomez's positioning and what he does in situations in which he has actual defending to do, and that's years and years of stored hung on peg information of watching great defenders do the right things in those situations and not that great defenders still be very important players through being able to do the right things i n them

[skyebo]

Give them a season before judging them properly ( Thiago & Diogo ) Early signs are good, but they wouldn't be the first ones to start well then fade into obscurity. Klopp's record in the transfer market is good, but by no means flawless.

[skyebo]

If it aint broken don't fix it

If you know anything about the game and fully understand it, you simply don't move your best players from their best and most consistent positions

I'm finding a lot of the talk here right now pretty ridiculous to be honest, we're without Virgil and Allison and apparently the solution to making sure we cope with that as best we can isn't for all the players to work hard to make sure we do all the things our best 11 at their best do as well as possible and have as much continuity and familiarity in the team and rely on the relationships and understanding between as many of our best 11 as possible to help those coming in play as well as possible

Robbo has been excellent so far this season and looks to be taking his game to even higher levels, yet his relationship on the pitch with Mane, Mane's positions and the positions Mane drags opposition players into and how Mane presses and counter presses and defends with Robbo on that side is an absolutely key part of Robbo performing at his best and taking his game to those higher levels, but apparently the best way forward is to change the entire formation, and completely rip up our left side and all the understanding and team work and team bonds that have seen it become by far our strongest side in the past 2 seasons

The mind absolutely boggles, a football team is a living breathing organism, even moreso a team like ours whose strength is their collectively ability and playing as one.

If you move Mane you affect Robbo, you affect Gini, you affect Mo, you affect Mane, you affect the entire team, it's not FIFA or Championship Manager, which like you, rely solely on programmed stats and simply don't have the football understanding of the importance of player relationships and understanding and the incredible importance of that and how it facilitates each player performing at thieer best in a side with all the players combining as one

Robertson has played 99 league games for us 76 wins 38 clean sheets 30 assists 4 goals. Great record.

[scientificred]

When people say so and so needs a rest what exactly do they mean?
The lockdown surely gave most players the longest rest they have had in years.
Perhaps conversely it was too long a rest and maybe they lost some sharpness as a result.

[stevie harkness]

I think there was too much uncertainty for lockdown to be a rest. A physical rest maybe although they were still training not on the beach.

We didn't know how long lockdown would last or if the season would even resume.

As a result the players didn't get a proper summer holiday. It'll have affected some players more than others.

[Steveo]

The form went before the lockdown. The team gave 110% to make the league un winnable for any rival.. after being pipped so cruelly the season prior. Remember we didn’t add to the squad that summer - big mistake IMO. No wonder Virgil and Hendo and others are struggling this season.

It has taken an obvious toll on the team and on Klopp who seems increasingly agitated.

Also I don’t think people are talking about a so and so - they are specifically talking about Bobby - who has run himself into the ground. The goals have dried up and even interplay has been severely lacking compared to his usual high standard.

We can keep running him into the ground until he does himself a serious tear - pull or worse -OR give him a rest and let Jota try his hand.

It is just an opinion of course - and if he scores a hat trick tomorrow some will point and say - see rotating Bobby would have been wrong. That is how daft this place can be at times but the fact is - he and we could have benefitted from that rotation long ago.

We all love Bobby - I have never seen a player work as hard as he does. He will be back to his best soon - just personally feel he looks fatigued.