Real Madrid v Liverpool (CL Match Thread)

[Nineteenx]

I think when we were at our best Trent was essentially a right winger with Hendo operating occasionally as CM but more often at RB covering for Trent

I don't agree, the best I've seen our lads play since Jurgen arrived was in that spell Fab was out, the press and counter press was near perfection in that run of games and the distribution from No6 was lightyears ahead of where it is with Fab at No6. I still can't believe he changed it, that was his first major mistake since he arrived, if something works better than what you had planned because it's been forced on you, you have a rethink and work with what has worked better, not go back to the other thing, that although good, wasn't as good

Jurgen and Linders said it numerous times in that run with Hendo at No6 "I don't believe in perfection, we're always looking to improve, but the press and counter press was as near to that as it could be" they said it, numerous times, given how big a part the press and counter press plays in our being successful and how Jurgen likes to play, you'd think it might give them at least some food for thought

[CCTV]

No no no. Play a game of football CC and stop trying to read your way into an understanding of the game.

This is where you and 19 miss the bleeding obvious entirely.

The players have been run into the ground.. this is what we are witnessing. This is what has to happen to win what we have!

It simply does not happen unless they are pushed that hard and for that time. It’s called a chase - a race. You try to win the league - you end up in a CL final. You lose it.

You promise to come back next year and win it. You do just that and take 97 points into the bargain missing out on the title by... drum roll... 1 sodding point!

You then get told you cannot buy any more players because you have to... wait for it... “pay the bills”..

So no new signings but the drive is there to take a title. The squad is capable IF only we can just escape another season without any majors injury...

And we go on a run from the start of the season until well into February where we make the league totally un-winnable.

Then the team crashes..

These are the hard facts.

Klopp could have tried to take it easier on the squad - no argument but we likely miss out on both number 6 and number 19.

He needed backing.. he needed far better backing than to have to do all this from the sale of Coutinho.

Those citing injury and we have had some rotten luck this season following huge luck the last 2. May I remind you - if we win today it will be our first win at home in 2021!

Is this the level we can expect while missing Gomez and Virgil? Nothing else at play?

Come on - the team has run out of gas, we are all upset. It is tragic really no fans to see our Champions and City will get the parade we haven’t had for 30 years, but a lack of investment means we could wait another 30 amigo.

For the record... Comparing Klopp’s workhorses with Peps Barca IMO shows a mahusive lack of football knowledge. Stop digging.

Pep at city in the premier league has deployed Sterling for more minutes than Mane since 16/17.
If we exclude 16/17 (mane injury/afcon) they've played the same minutes practically, sterling notching up just a few minutes more.

Pep has had the investment, though there are city fans who feel hes not been backed.
Regardless pep has had options other than sterling but has selected him as he has and sterling has played those minutes.

It seems pep also thinks that type of workload is not beyond a top player. Sterling certainly ain't messi at his peak either.

So we have Klopp play Mane and Pep play sterling and both of the two top managers have overplayed their players, or do you think Sterling could play that many minutes but Mane couldn't?
Would you believe Mane could play that many minutes for pep, but not for Klopp ?
Is Peps style of football really lacking the same intensity as Klopp?

City had a dip last year too and didn't start the league in fine form this year. They had some injuries last year and I would believe their injuries being more evenly spread across positions was beneficial as was the superior strength in depth.

This year we were top of the league at Christmas and since then have capitulated.
Salah whose played more minutes than Mane is still scoring at an acceptable rate.

I think it is hard to explain this decline by physical exertion and it seems more like a pack of women having a synchronised menstruation cycle. A group mentality dip.

City fell off the pace last year and into this year, we fell of the pace later. They had hit a high end of performance one year earlier than us with their 100 point blitz to the league.
We had a tight season between the 2 with us winning then we blitzed the league and they fell away.
Now they are on course to blitz the league again, assuming they win all their remaining games it will be mid 90s.
We on the other hand, were we to win our remaining games are chasing 73 points this season, a 9 point worse finish than city last year if we do manage to win our remaining league games.

[CCTV]

Us winning (insert) the cl

[Steveo]

So what are you saying...?

Sterling plays the same game as Mané? Really? I am hoping that you do actually watch these games right? I do hope you do more than just look at stats...?

Are you speaking as someone who has played football at a reasonable level? It really doesn’t sound like you have I must say. I hope you have done more than just read about the game.

Are you saying that Mané is not at the level of Sterling? Who has had at least 1 sometimes 2 players ready to step in anytime his level dips.

The workload can always be fine If you have comparable players who can come in. When you don’t have that - it is suicide.

What part of this are you struggling with? We haven’t had that. To win number 6 and 19 it was always Salah and Mané as the wide forwards with nobody at all in reserve. They had to perform relentlessly despite having nobody to challenge them or come in if one had a knock or needed a rest. This is mentally exhausting...!

Why do you think I say having that couple of extra genuine first team options would have spared us this monumental crash.

Having the options gives you more options. It means if a Mané is off it in training you give him a rest - keep him fresh and play a Jota or whoever was brought in in say summer 2019. If said player performs then Mané has to work to get back in. That is what it takes to be relentless winners.

It costs money - you have to pay the bills and go buy the players.

Look at the finances Jurgen has had to work with and then ask yourself if you can keep a straight face and compare us to City or Barcelona.

[CCTV]

So what are you saying...?

Sterling plays the same game as Mané? Really? I am hoping that you do actually watch these games right? I do hope you do more than just look at stats...?

Are you speaking as someone who has played football at a reasonable level? It really doesn’t sound like you have I must say. I hope you have done more than just read about the game.

Are you saying that Mané is not at the level of Sterling? Who has had at least 1 sometimes 2 players ready to step in anytime his level dips.

The workload can always be fine If you have comparable players who can come in. When you don’t have that - it is suicide.

What part of this are you struggling with? We haven’t had that. To win number 6 and 19 it was always Salah and Mané as the wide forwards with nobody at all in reserve. They had to perform relentlessly despite having nobody to challenge them or come in if one had a knock or needed a rest. This is mentally exhausting...!

Why do you think I say having that couple of extra genuine first team options would have spared us this monumental crash.

Having the options gives you more options. It means if a Mané is off it in training you give him a rest - keep him fresh and play a Jota or whoever was brought in in say summer 2019. If said player performs then Mané has to work to get back in. That is what it takes to be relentless winners.

It costs money - you have to pay the bills and go buy the players.

Look at the finances Jurgen has had to work with and then ask yourself if you can keep a straight face and compare us to City or Barcelona.

No, not played football at any level of significance.

Please put your expertise in to an answer.

If pep could play sterling for that many minutes when he had a plethora of options.
A) How many minutes could Klopp have expected Mane to play ?

It appears you think Sterling could play those minutes without exhaustion as
1) pep had options not to play him more than Mane
2) Mane could play those minutes in a pep city side like sterling, but not in a Klopp side.

Which brings us back to the longed for answer. How many minutes could Klopp expect Mane to play a season ?

I think pep picks sterling regularly for his work rate off the ball (defending) and his sprint speed in attack.
I think he picked him to play more minutes than Mane as he believes players can play that many minutes of top flight, top intensity football.
If he felt Sterling couldn't play that many minutes, he'd surely have picked one of his other options more regularly.

[Steveo]

The question is totally meaningless.

Every team plays differently and every player does too. Some are just walking like Messi was in his pomp - surrounded by world class players working to get him onto the ball in dangerous areas where he can attack.

Others like Mané are in front of a workmanlike midfield - back to goal for much of the time with Henderson - Gini and Milner..FFS!

I mean come on - Mané and Bobby and Salah were running up and down - pressing - making dummy runs to create space - all sorts of work. All sorts of hard miles.

20 minutes like this is more taxing than 120 strolling around.

This is far harder still when you know there is nobody behind you in the squad. That takes HUGE mental strength to keep pushing yourself despite the knowledge that you are not being dropped!

So the minutes question - be it Sterling or Messi is just daft.

Football is a game played by human beings who run and tackle and get hurt and get tired.

It isn’t something you can fully understand sitting behind a computer.

[CCTV]

I think Sterling and Mane are comparable players.

It's pretty simple Steveo, if you think Sterling has an easier time than Mane does here.
Quantify it - in your opinion.

Say 80% of the minutes sterling's plays.
Assuming you think Mane works that much more per minute than sterling.

If sterling plays 4000 mins can Mane be expected to play 3200 mins ? More or less.

[Steveo]

It is simple if you know nothing about football.

There are no stats that show who works harder. No stats that show who is more mentally fatigued. Watch the games and if you understand the game you will have your answer.

Starting to think it is you who is simple.

Not really - honest

[ianlfc]

Always remember lads, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

[CCTV]

It's a simple manner of conveying your thoughts on the matter.

I'm sure if you had access to the data you could use distance covered per game, average speed, sprint data, shots per game, fouled etc to build a model for the impact of their playing football per min.
I'd wager both clubs data analysts have these models

Seems to me the more you are pressed on specifics your expertise wanes.

My guess would be theres very little difference between Mane and Sterling per minute in terms of their physical exertions.

Without a certain opinion based on watching them as you seem to claim, or spending time analysing the data as others might do...
I would be surprised if there was much difference between the two.

You on the other hand seem to think there is a signifcant difference between the two, it's just you are unable to quantify that opinion so far.