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Thread: New Newcastle

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insidious View Post
    The worst bit for a fan of a Club that gets bought by the Saudis is that, if you're of the inclination where you absolutely don't want such owners under any circumstances, when do you get your club back?

    These Oil Princes will never be under the financial pressure where they'll have to sell. You are essentially stuck with them - and if you have any sense of morality whatsoever, it must be a nightmare to stomach.
    I'd be less concerned about the owners and more about how success is achieved.
    If we take Klopps, Fergies, Wenger Cloughs (before my time) success it's like getting your shit together and losing weight and achieving your success.
    Whereas the chelsea, psg and city success is more akin to a sugar daddy paying for his piece of ass to get a tummy tuck.
    Of course you could say some clubs like Leicester maybe had a middle class owner to help them along but I guess it's a matter of perspective and taste.

    With regards to the morality of say the Islamic owners and their nations, its a more complex discussion imo.
    Listening to women from these nations they don't seem to be keen on becoming West end girls. Also these nations don't have the same appeal with migrants and as such they can't outsource reproductive duties to the same extent.

    In other areas... you can have people dressed in kink pissing on each other during a pride event, or a dildo dangling bare butted fury rainbow monkey down in the library for the kids. No doubt the western world is hypersexualised with genitals and sexuality even a key part of party conferences. It's in psychological literature the oversexualisation of kids.

    Whereas in Islamic nations public displays of affection are not the norm and their culture is less sexualised than the west. Of course they have issues around sex too, age of consent.
    They also have the potential for severe punishments for gays for example, but to my knowledge these are rare events and merely keep the sexuality in private as with heterosexuality. Again evolutionary reasons for why homosexuality would be outlawed and gays pushed to produce children.

    I guess it's a matter of how you wish your justice system and society to work. It's quite a complex discussion talking about the difference in moral viewpoints over such a broad spectrum of life.

  2. #82
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    And by the way, I don't think it is automatic that City must be paying higher wages than us. We have a more established team - their's is newer. they have very high purchasing fees, but one of the problems we have now is that we have players that we don't want to leave and who are the envy of all the big clubs.

    To keep Alisson, Salah, Mané, Van Dijk and Henderson for the long term has meant upgrades actually up to the limits of affordability in the case of Salah.

    Alexander-Arnold has been so good, so young that it is hard to imagine how the club will keep pushing his wages up to market value in the long term.

    We had something like 5 players in the world top 10 or 12 a couple of seasons ago and it has occurred to me that we may not be able to maintain a squad with that much star value

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taksin View Post
    Right, ok, bonus payments are potentially of this order. but they are written into a contract, aren't they? There's only so many Rolexes you can buy per week to make up the £100,000 short-fall they've had to impose on, say, Raheem Sterling. The contract is a liability and FFP rules are there to ensure that liability cannot be passed on to the hypothetical next owners.

    And we know FFP regulators are looking at this - they are aware City want to funnel funds through sponsorship and they have rules about what a reasonable sponsorship deal looks like. That's what City were accused of in their recent scandal - accounting for non income as income and hiding it with smoke and mirrors. So it's not allowed.

    So, if you're claiming Raheem Sterling is being paid more than he is being paid. by the Arabs, do you know this for a fact (or even a rumour) or are you just imagining it must be so?
    The liability if it is not man cities would not be handed on to you, should you be the next owner of city.

    The deal would occur outside of the mancity world, say a few million in a bank account in insert region of your choice.
    Or a 6 year ambassadorial role for adverts with an airline.
    An ambassadorial role would still retain value for the airline, albeit perhaps not to the tune it was to circumvent ffp.

    Now even if the shake had some deal in place and he was going to have no means of getting money back from Sterling when selling city tomorrow, I'd suggest these would be seen as business costs to develop the club to the point its been developed and the offer/cash/profit received from this buyer would be greater than the lost money.

    As a matter of fact, neither of us know what arrangements Sterling has, we have the reliability of the clubs accounts to take as gospel. But that is not a matter of fact either.
    So if its a fact you are looking for, I can't help you.

    So I'll put this back on you for some thoughts....

    Sterling signs for City, he's on 250kpw. He improves from when he signed, has his agent, has interest from real Madrid, wages continue to inflate in the football World particularly for top end footballers, he's a bigger icon/image.

    Yet he signs a contract extension for less than he signed for initially.

    Mancity in email leaks have been shown to have had a less than complimentary view of ffp, with an eagerness not to be thwarted by ffp to put it mildly. They have sponsorship deals valued at twice the price they are deemed to be worth in a normal market.

    Do you think Sterling instructed his agent to settle for less, as the owners said they couldn't work around ffp and must comply with the spirit of ffp.

    The probability and sniff test lead me to where I'm at.
    We have a high wage bill, but it's less than cities, chelseas and Uniteds.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taksin View Post
    And by the way, I don't think it is automatic that City must be paying higher wages than us. We have a more established team - their's is newer. they have very high purchasing fees, but one of the problems we have now is that we have players that we don't want to leave and who are the envy of all the big clubs.

    To keep Alisson, Salah, Mané, Van Dijk and Henderson for the long term has meant upgrades actually up to the limits of affordability in the case of Salah.

    Alexander-Arnold has been so good, so young that it is hard to imagine how the club will keep pushing his wages up to market value in the long term.

    We had something like 5 players in the world top 10 or 12 a couple of seasons ago and it has occurred to me that we may not be able to maintain a squad with that much star value
    We haven't assembled a squad in anything like the manner of Real, Psg, Barca, Manu, Chelsea or City.

    Yet somehow City and Chelsea manage to do it in a manner by paying people less.

    Maybe it's only the non oil-rich clubs who get mercenaries whereas the oil-rich clubs don't attract mercenaries.

    In my last post I gave you some food for thought, I'd like to see how you resolve the known with my proposal regarding our ranking in terms of players wages.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCTV View Post
    The liability if it is not man cities would not be handed on to you, should you be the next owner of city.
    It is if it's in his contract. That's why there are limitations imposed on what they can pay him and the others

    Quote Originally Posted by CCTV View Post
    The deal would occur outside of the mancity world, say a few million in a bank account in insert region of your choice.
    Or a 6 year ambassadorial role for adverts with an airline.
    Of course. This is the corruption you are claiming is taking place. Do you happen to know if Sterling has this kind of ambassadorial role within the UAE?

    Even if it were true, the fact that we have a higher wage bill remains, by the way. It means we are spending up to our limit, which is higher than theirs and they are having to be corrupt to pay their players, which we are not.

    It also reaffirms the fact that we are not lagging behind Aston Villa and Everton.

    Quote Originally Posted by CCTV View Post
    An ambassadorial role would still retain value for the airline, albeit perhaps not to the tune it was to circumvent ffp.
    I'm pretty sure this would be an affront to FFP rules if found out to be occurring.


    Quote Originally Posted by CCTV View Post
    I'd suggest these would be seen as business costs to develop the club to the point its been developed and the offer/cash/profit received from this buyer would be greater than the lost money.
    Yes it is in their interests to spend more on the club. They want to do it. But they can't do it on wages without the income. They can throw as much money as they want into the club as development cash, but they can't run the club at an ongoing loss.

    As far as I'm aware, the club could give him a big £5 million thank you gift at the end of the season, for example, it just could not be put into a contract.

    Quote Originally Posted by CCTV View Post
    Sterling signs for City, he's on 250kpw. He improves from when he signed, has his agent, has interest from real Madrid, wages continue to inflate in the football World particularly for top end footballers, he's a bigger icon/image.
    I've heard he is widely viewed as having not improved. That may be a factor. plus the've been rumbled on FFP. I know nothing of his contract but there are contracts that don't increase, especially if you're being payed an amount that won't be improved upon elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by CCTV View Post
    Mancity in email leaks have been shown to have had a less than complimentary view of ffp, with an eagerness not to be thwarted by ffp to put it mildly.
    Of course they hate it. But that's not the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by CCTV View Post
    They have sponsorship deals valued at twice the price they are deemed to be worth in a normal market.
    And these are being closely monitored. The last time I saw some figures a few years ago, they were not out of this world in comparison to the deals we and Utd have got going.

    Quote Originally Posted by CCTV View Post
    Do you think Sterling instructed his agent to settle for less, as the owners said they couldn't work around ffp and must comply with the spirit of ffp.
    It's not the spirit of it, it's the rules. The rules aren't even instantiated to thwart Man City or PSG, as many people seem to think (Evertonians think they are there to hold back smaller clubs). They are there to protect the long term health of the club. If Man City are getting away with a wages scam they are doing very well to hide it unless you can enlighten us with any evidence at all..

    By the way, I do believe they are getting away with a sponsorship scam but it has been examined in detail and has been hard to rule out completely as it is not as egregious enough an offence as the one you are claiming exists would be. In effect they have been able to to convince the auditors that the Emirates money is feasible.

    Without FFP, City could spend whatever they like on players. It's interesting that they aren't allowed to as it stands. It's also interesting that we are able to spend more than them.

  6. #86
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    Let’s not look at the oversexualised picture here, although I broadly agree with you. This is a week where the Catholic Church is expecting a deluge of claims for abuse going back many years and our own Prof Phil Scraton is carrying on his honourable work in now seeking out the injustices of the Magdalene workhouses. I am agnostic but we, here, worry about lfc club transfer funds when these wrongs still remain unpunished and NUFC have been taken over by a tyrant and alleged accomplice to murder. How the hell The premier league has accepted assurances that The government won’t be running the club when the Ruler is chairman of the fund ($ 203 b ) defies belief. I foresee a shortage of brown envelopes as many have been used here.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCTV View Post
    We haven't assembled a squad in anything like the manner of Real, Psg, Barca, Manu, Chelsea or City.

    Yet somehow City and Chelsea manage to do it in a manner by paying people less.
    Barca, like Utd have used a debt model - servicing debts becomes a part of their outgoings. Low interest rates have upped the temptation to keep pushing up the debt and we can see where that has gone wrong at Barca even without rising interest rates.

    Chelsea in my opinion do not have our level of squad yet - I mentioned how we had a number of players in the world top ten, or twenty whatever it was, and some of those players are on their third contracts now if I'm not mistaken. Chelseas don't have that. They did start out with Ken Bates saying 'we'll double your wages' to LFC players but I don't think they are currently operating that way since FFP, unless you know otherwise

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taksin View Post
    It is if it's in his contract. That's why there are limitations imposed on what they can pay him and the others



    Of course. This is the corruption you are claiming is taking place. Do you happen to know if Sterling has this kind of ambassadorial role within the UAE?

    Even if it were true, the fact that we have a higher wage bill remains, by the way. It means we are spending up to our limit, which is higher than theirs and they are having to be corrupt to pay their players, which we are not.

    It also reaffirms the fact that we are not lagging behind Aston Villa and Everton.



    I'm pretty sure this would be an affront to FFP rules if found out to be occurring.




    Yes it is in their interests to spend more on the club. They want to do it. But they can't do it on wages without the income. They can throw as much money as they want into the club as development cash, but they can't run the club at an ongoing loss.

    As far as I'm aware, the club could give him a big £5 million thank you gift at the end of the season, for example, it just could not be put into a contract.



    I've heard he is widely viewed as having not improved. That may be a factor. plus the've been rumbled on FFP. I know nothing of his contract but there are contracts that don't increase, especially if you're being payed an amount that won't be improved upon elsewhere.



    Of course they hate it. But that's not the point.



    And these are being closely monitored. The last time I saw some figures a few years ago, they were not out of this world in comparison to the deals we and Utd have got going.



    It's not the spirit of it, it's the rules. The rules aren't even instantiated to thwart Man City or PSG, as many people seem to think (Evertonians think they are there to hold back smaller clubs). They are there to protect the long term health of the club. If Man City are getting away with a wages scam they are doing very well to hide it unless you can enlighten us with any evidence at all..

    By the way, I do believe they are getting away with a sponsorship scam but it has been examined in detail and has been hard to rule out completely as it is not as egregious enough an offence as the one you are claiming exists would be. In effect they have been able to to convince the auditors that the Emirates money is feasible.

    Without FFP, City could spend whatever they like on players. It's interesting that they aren't allowed to as it stands. It's also interesting that we are able to spend more than them.
    Cities owners have other means of getting money to players. Its really no business of ffp so long as its not on cities books. Ffp is only concerned with cities books, as per the aspirations of ffp. It wasn't set up to ensure players sponsorships would be of market value and ensured.
    Our owners aren't looking to operate in this manner, perhaps out of ethics or not wanting to put their cash in likewise.

    It's as simple as saying here's your new contract for 25kpw less than what you signed on for, we must meet ffp regulations.
    Now here's our offer in terms of investment in you via whatever means they decide.

    Then it's up to the player and agent to make a choice.
    This type of dilemma occurs regularly enough at a smaller scale for normal folks. Cash in hand.
    Of course players could decide to opt out of such bad behaviour, but sometimes the apple is too sweetened.

    You can look at sterling's football stats at lfc when they bought him, his first season at City and the season just prior to his contract extension.
    In the 17/18 season he scored 23 goals and provided 17 assists.
    https://www.transfermarkt.com/raheem-sterling/leistungsdaten/spieler/134425/plus/0?saison=2017

    He was in favour with Pep and producing very good numbers, he has the speed/engine to press well.

    Throughout this time football wages have increased, he was turning into the player they hoped to see when signed.
    Yet he took a pay cut of around 25kpw by reports at this time. Whilst Real were rumoured to be interested in him.

    It makes very little sense and my wild accusations aren't exactly unfounded given the unfortunate leaks from city and greater leaks from PSG.

    As said the declared wage bills are not exactly the same thing. But in terms of the senior football sides wages I think you have to look at the players purchased, the clubs purchased from and the expectations of players wages with the club they signed for.

    When you apply these perspectives to the manner at hand, it would imo further suggest that the reported wages are bs.
    Certainly so with the senior squads.

    We have a few players in the very top end. City have had plenty of them and more top end in reserve. Many of ours are getting significant pay rises presently.
    Our wages increase because of the inflation in wages in football and the revenue increases in football.

    Seems a bit paradoxical to highlight city and chelsea as being a major cause of football wage inflation, a top end competitive side for longer, yet somehow having a smaller wage bill.

    Again we must start looking at how the wage-inflation-causing oil rich clubs have seemingly attracted top end players that aren't mercenaries like the non oil-rich clubs rosters.

  9. #89
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    I followed the City FFP tribunal as closely as I could. I am a retired lawyer so have an interest beyond partisan support. As I recall most of the damning evidence against city, ie inflated sponsorship deals and third party financial arrangements was served by UEFA out of time and inadmissible. This in itself raises the spectre of further corruption. If a law firm were to be so negligent in failing to observe strict time limits then the negligence claim against them would be massive. UEFA simply walked away ( brown envelopes perhaps bulging) my opinion , obviously can’t prove it, but it stank ….and still does with NUFC.

  10. #90
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    Well Uefa/Platini and Fifa/Blatter haven't been without their own issues.

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