For F**k's Sake, Trent!!

[justme]

I think the system plays a huge part in our defensive problems. we are basically to open. Trent is fine going forward but not forward all the time. Theres no reason we can't sit off and keep the ball then go after teams in the last half an hour.
But we just seem to want to rip teams apart all the time, with no consideration for ball possession . Brighton had 50/50 control of the football yesterday. At home we should have at least 65% of the ball

It takes up too much energy trying to press for a whole game anyway.. some footballing intelligence wouldn't go a miss.

[philfatkid]

I think the system plays a huge part in our defensive problems. we are basically to open. Trent is fine going forward but not forward all the time. Theres no reason we can't sit off and keep the ball then go after teams in the last half an hour.
But we just seem to want to rip teams apart all the time, with no consideration for ball possession . Brighton had 50/50 control of the football yesterday. At home we should have at least 65% of the ball

It takes up too much energy trying to press for a whole game anyway.. some footballing intelligence wouldn't go a miss.

I think this has a lot to do with it, what i've noticed (in my humble opinion) when we lose the ball in the opposition half, both fullback come inside towards the center halves, thus making it relatively easy for the attacking team to pick a player out on the wing, and when this happens our fullbacks then have to go out to the wing and are on the back foot, it baffles me, why don't they stay out wide so that it is a little more difficult for the other team to find a player ?

[toshin]

I think the system plays a huge part in our defensive problems. we are basically to open. Trent is fine going forward but not forward all the time. Theres no reason we can't sit off and keep the ball then go after teams in the last half an hour.
But we just seem to want to rip teams apart all the time, with no consideration for ball possession . Brighton had 50/50 control of the football yesterday. At home we should have at least 65% of the ball

It takes up too much energy trying to press for a whole game anyway.. some footballing intelligence wouldn't go a miss.

Agreed.
You watch city seemingly aimlessly pass the ball around after pressing to win it back, it's just to let them rest before the next wave and in case they lose it again.
We only have a few lads incapable of retaining possession under pressure so it's definitely training methods.

Trent keeps going forwards without care because he thinks hell always be covered like the good Ole days.
Not with a older hendo, fabinho and now thiago instead of gini. Not when vvd looks like he's saving himself for the wc and frankly has lost a yard since his injury.
It also doesn't help that salah isn't the outlet he once was. Diaz has been more successful than him for a while now.

[justme]

Agree with both replies...


What i see the difference between us and City, is City don't try and complete physically with the opposition. What i mean is they pass the ball in short spaces they pass it back in small spaces and drag a player out to a position they cant quite get to the ball and then they move the ball around him. we just wanna press onto the opponents. We lose the ball after 1/2 midfielders have compressed the space and there's huge spaces to play in behind.Once your turned and your playing a high line. You cant really press because one mistake theres only your goalie behind you for protection. If you drop off leaves the countering players chances to run at your back line.

City do get countered, but their possession stats make it less likely for a team to be in control of the ball.. I have my doubts about a 3/5.2. formation when it comes to attacking. But i wouldnt have a problem with it in the meantime

You could have a back 3 of Konate Matip and Virgil. wing backs in Trent and Robertson. You could give licence for Matip to play the sweeper roll and Hes shown he can run forward with the ball.
Salah and Diaz could easily play in a 2 up front as long as Trent and Robertson provide the width. Otherwise just sit off and defend and make sure you don't concede goals.

I love the 4/3/3 formation but when you're not playing well it causes you issues. Anyway, Klopp won't change how he plays. so its pointless discussing it

[Insidious]

You're asking all the wrong questions Sid

What has happened to our once best in the universe pressing and counter pressing and incredibly astute positioning in it throughout the entire team that we are no longer quickly winning the ball back when we lose it higher up the pitch denying all opposition sides any opportunity to target Trent with quick counters, let alone giving them every opportunity to target him from every position on the pitch? Is the question you should be asking

Whilst we may have had a drop-off in that department, I'm not sure we can ever expect to be the best-coached, best system with best individuals for said system performing to their best in perpetuity.

So even if we got back to our brilliant best, one would think the footballing World would catch up to some degree in time and/or the players we need for key positions in recruitment (to stay on top) might be bought by other top sides, particularly those that historically throw out big fees (Real Madrid, Man United, Man City, Chelsea, PSG etc)

[Nineteenx]

We're just not picking up and we're not doing the basics

Defending while attacking - Simple things, moving to be in a brilliant counter press position to the the ball back quickly if we lose it, while also being in a good position to go beyond that player to join in the attack if an opportunity to do so that's going to culminate in an effort on goal or opportunity to put a quality ball in arises

We're just all over the place, the above is what Robbo referred to after one of the early set backs, "Your mate not taking a good position on a player for you to take your position off and all the lads doing that" or words to that effect, it's nowhere fucking near - It's an incredible loss of automation and exactly what I warned about for the last 2 seasons, the recruitment being shite doesn't help, but it's not that bad if our coaches are doing their job with the players we do have who need to do what Robbo spoke about a lot fucking better

Klopp needs to stick to what he's good at, simple as, is he is great motivator and inspirational character who gets buy in from his players and for them to run through brick walls for him, playing his brand of football, he'll never be a top manager at tappy crappy, maybe guilty of believing his own hype too much

[Nineteenx]

Agreed.
You watch city seemingly aimlessly pass the ball around after pressing to win it back, it's just to let them rest before the next wave and in case they lose it again.

We don't and didn't have players with as much versatility and cuteness to their passing, but we did have players with a type of passing that was devastatingly effective in our set up and all very strong in keeping and working the ball simply in tight areas, and essentially did just that in 19-20, teams parked the bus, we worked it well enough in tight areas, tried to release our forwards and full backs with balls in behind or crosses from our full backs, won a huge percentage of second balls through our consistently brilliant positioning, then we'd have a breather, knock it around in non threatening areas trying to make them come and get it, and quite often we'd score from that by Hendo or Virgil launching a quality ball in behind to find one of our forwards run when the opposition thought we were just playing keep ball

[toshin]

City do get countered, but their possession stats make it less likely for a team to be in control of the ball.. I have my doubts about a 3/5.2. formation when it comes to attacking. But i wouldnt have a problem with it in the meantime

One other thing to mention here is pep is the king of tactical fouling.
The tactical 'minor' fouls or fouls by multiple players together has been a pep trait since barca.
You rarely get booked for those so you can do it often.
Pep uses them to frustrate opponents build up play, and referees see it as normal and not worthy of a yellow card. Refs managers and players have to be smarter facing it.

Only when you beat their high press can it lead to a professional foul booking, as they get desperate.

[Nineteenx]

One other thing to mention here is pep is the king of tactical fouling.
The tactical 'minor' fouls or fouls by multiple players together has been a pep trait since barca.
You rarely get booked for those so you can do it often.

That's true enough, they have improved on taking good positions as we used to, and frequently have players in excellent counter press positions to win the ball back quickly and high if their attacks breaks down as we used to, having copied and adopted so much of that side of the game that made us so much better than them in 19-20 from us, what they do that we never did is their player closest to the opposition player makes sure they get the ball or tactically foul them a very high percentage of the time

[Insidious]

So - Trent.

It may be an aesthetic thing as he has bulked up, but does he look visibly slower to anyone else when getting back?

At first I thought it was him being slow to react at times and not anticipating, but now I feel I'm seeing it further into his runs than before.

Is it a consequence of so many games played at a young age? The bulk? Protection of niggling injuries?

Hope it isn't any sort of underlying issue - if it is then we would need to address it.