Reason No. 398,285 why it's not good to have your club owned by a Petro-Oligarch

[Taksin]

I think we should be very careful wishing for the destruction if Putin.. apart from the threat of him going down in a blaze of glory, Russia doesn't tend to produce soft, cuddly leaders. If you speak to Russians they talk about genocide against Russians in Ukraine - he has decent support.

As CCTV points out, Zelensky promised to seek peace with Russia but has been convinced to anger Putin by going back on the Budapest agreement, which was supposed to protect Russia from NATO expansion. Just before the invasion Kamala Harris was in Germany saying Ukraine should join NATO.

Remember the Bay of Pigs and the response to Cuban nuclear missiles? That was rightly perceived as Soviet aggression at the time.

[CCTV]

I think we should be very careful wishing for the destruction if Putin.. apart from the threat of him going down in a blaze of glory, Russia doesn't tend to produce soft, cuddly leaders. If you speak to Russians they talk about genocide against Russians in Ukraine - he has decent support.

As CCTV points out, Zelensky promised to seek peace with Russia but has been convinced to anger Putin by going back on the Budapest agreement, which was supposed to protect Russia from NATO expansion. Just before the invasion Kamala Harris was in Germany saying Ukraine should join NATO.

Remember the Bay of Pigs and the response to Cuban nuclear missiles? That was rightly perceived as Soviet aggression at the time.

It was and it was also a reaction to nukes being brought in to Turkey and Italy. Both aggressors.
Both countries that have caused issues for Russians. The Italians joining adolf obviously and ww2, and the turks have had a fair few wars with the Russians over the years. 16 or something

Jfk to his credit probably stopped a nuclear bombing of Cuba, and the thoughts thereafter was to deescalate tensions and arms. A relatively speedily resolved issue.
Far too many nations have nukes now.

This has been drawn out for years as Nato/eu want to cut Russian access to the middle east. So they can dominate the region and get a big gasoline into Europe.

[Crimson Dynasty]

The Russians have asked for 3 conditions to be met to end the war. From the Kremlin

"They should make amendments to the constitution according to which Ukraine would reject any aims to enter any bloc.

"We have also spoken about how they should recognise that Crimea is Russian territory and that they need to recognise that Donetsk and Lugansk are independent states. And that's it. It will stop in a moment."

"However, these are requirements that Ukraine has so far rejected, as Zelenskiy does not want to give independence to the Donbas areas, and has applied for EU and NATO membership. Moreover, he considers the annexation of Crimea to be illegal."

So the question is whether Zelensy is a hero or a fool pushing us into WW3. And if he is a fool, who is pushing him and offering him a golden parachute.

Another nonsensical comment (Sorry, but I call them as I see them).

So just to get this straight, Zelensky is a "fool" because he won't bend to Putin's demand to change the UKRANIAN consitution to serve Russia's needs and interests as opposed to the needs and interests of the UKRANIAN people?


Because the other two conditions or demands are nonsensical anyway.
What's served by Ukraine recognizing Crimea as a Russian territory when it is already a de facto Russian-run territory after Russia annexed (read : STOLE) it in 2014?

And if it was really about Donestk and Lugansk's independence, then what the hell are Russian troops doing al the way in Western Ukraine where Donestk and Lugansk are not?
Why not just station 50,000 Russian troops in Donestk and Lugansk and declare them independent, (pretty much like how he's done to Crimea)?

What does blowing up hospitals and schools in Kyiv in the west of Uktraine and in Mariupol in southern Ukraine do to help those to regions get their independance that the presence of Russian troops in them wouldn't?

And didn't Putin initially claim he was going into Ukraine - a country run by a Jewish President and a Jewish Prime Minister - to.... "de- Nazi-fy" it?

What happened to that?

[Crimson Dynasty]

It's from Yale

http://www.econ.yale.edu/growth_pdf/cdp796.pdf

I don't know why you're so sure about sanctions in SA. There seem to be opinions that are impenetrable to historical challenge, such as the New Deal having cured the Great Depression. They just become articles of faith.

The sanctions here are another order of magnitude, not aimed at persuasion but at total destruction. If you think our leadership is clever enough to know what they are doing exactly, good luck to you. I don't

It may be that the only thing that will save us is the deep state, the swamp, with just enough self restraint to keep fingers away from the buttons, but no one else seems to understand what's going on. And the propaganda on our side is dream like, childish and very dangerous.

I'm more or less sure about them because the guy who was at the forefront of pressing for those sanctions, insisted that they were what actually brought about the change that eventually took place.

But perhaps you know more than he does ( or did).
He was the one who eventually became president of a newly post-apartheid South Africa, and had quite a bit of experience suffering under the Apartheid regime, and I'd imagine he'd know more than some character putting out a paper at Yale or whatever other big name university you think lends it more credibility.

I can't quite seem to remember his name at the moment.
Oh well.


I notice lots of "Trump-ish" and MAGA-rific catch-phrases and buzzwords in that comment. ("Deep state",...."swamp"...)

I'm beginning to get a sense of where your wonky logic and bizarre reasoning comes from.

[Taksin]

And didn't Putin initially claim he was going into Ukraine - a country run by a Jewish President and a Jewish Prime Minister - to.... "de- Nazi-fy" it?

What happened to that?

Read the article I just posted above. The fact that Zelensky is Jewish and therefore it cannot be true is a matter of propaganda

https://thegrayzone.com/2022/03/04/nazis-ukrainian-war-russia/

And there is plenty more propaganda to deal with. I'm not sure exactly what comments you think are non-sensical but I'll wait to pass judgement on what happened at the hospital in Mariupol. I don't trust much of what we are hearing about current activity.

You didn't answer my earlier questions about Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya etc

I'm genuinely interested to know what you think. If we bombed hospitals and schools in those countries, which we did, what is it that excuses our actions or at least does not cause you to think our own goverments are psychopaths similar to Putin? Remember that approximately a million people died in Iraq alone as a result of our invasion. Real, actual human beings

[Crimson Dynasty]

Would you like to buy my bridge ?

This has been a diplomatic issue since the mid 2000s. No further expansion from Nato towards Russia.

There have been agreements that haven't been met. Zelensky talking about needing a nuclear deterrent and wants into Nato. A kind of opposite of his elected platform.
A bit like Obamas platform that saw him awarded a Nobel Peace Prize before bombing the shit out of smaller nations. His army running out of bombs one year.

It's a nation that has a divide and should probably be split in two.

Much like Ireland, leave the pro-russians their share in the East, and the pro-eu/nato theirs in the west, with a big dead zone in between the two. And thereafter leave it well alone.

Trust you to find a way to (pointlessly and nonsensically) wedge an anti-Obama talking point into all this,....all while making an equally ridiculous and nonsensical riposte.

What "Agreements"?

You mean like the one that recognized Crimea as a part of sovereign Ukraine after the break-up of the Soviet Union int he early 1990's, in exchange for Ukraine never becoming a Nuclear (weaponized) nation - which it still was when Putin broke that agreement by arbitrarily deciding that Crimea was part of Russia after all and deciding to annex it in 2014?

Those kinds of "agreements"?

You see what I mean?

Trust the residnet Trumpists to have their pro-Putin talking points on the ready, despite not having really thought them through.


And for the record (and also because you seem to have trouble remembering details like this), Obama HIMSELF said that he didn't deserve the Nobel Peace Prize as he hadn't done anything to earn him.

So which part is he getting the blame here for?
Getting an award he had no say in awarding himself and didn't think he should be awarded?
Or serving American foreing interests abroad in practically the same way every single other president before has done?
(whether or not you as a non-American agree with it or not)

[Taksin]

I notice lots of "Trump-ish" and MAGA-rific catch-phrases and buzzwords in that comment. ("Deep state",...."swamp"...)

I used those terms on purpose for effect - I was saying they may be our only hope if you care to notice

[Taksin]

What "Agreements"?

You mean like the one that recognized Crimea as a part of sovereign Ukraine after the break-up of the Soviet Union int he early 1990's, in exchange for Ukraine never becoming a Nuclear (weaponized) nation - which it still was when Putin broke that agreement by arbitrarily deciding that Crimea was part of Russia after all and deciding to annex it in 2014?

Those kinds of "agreements"?

No, the Budapest agreement

and the Minsk agreement

[Crimson Dynasty]

Read the article I just posted above. The fact that Zelensky is Jewish and therefore it cannot be true is a matter of propaganda

https://thegrayzone.com/2022/03/04/nazis-ukrainian-war-russia/

And there is plenty more propaganda to deal with. I'm not sure exactly what comments you think are non-sensical but I'll wait to pass judgement on what happened at the hospital in Mariupol. I don't trust much of what we are hearing about current activity.

Even if it's true that there are (Neo-)Nazi's in Ukraine (as there probably are in eveyr other Western country on the face of this planet), what the fuck makes it Putin's business to remove them as he claimed he was going to do?

Especially when he has his own Neo-nazi problem in Russia itself?


You really think this war is about neo-nazis or nazis in Ukraine?

Come on.

You didn't answer my earlier questions about Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya etc

I'm genuinely interested to know what you think. If we bombed hospitals and schools in those countries, which we did, what is it that excuses our actions or at least does not cause you to think our own goverments are psychopaths similar to Putin? Remember that approximately a million people died in Iraq alone as a result of our invasion. Real, actual human beings

Sooo,...

You're going with the "Two wrongs make a right" level of logic,..... that the rest of us learned in Nursery school, doesn't work?

Because we or some people bombed Afghanistan or Iraq, some time long ago.....ipso facto, therefore it's okay for Putin to do as he pleases.

Is that what you're working with here?

Got it.

[Crimson Dynasty]

No, the Budapest agreement

and the Minsk agreement

Yes, and what about the agreement I mentioned in that comment that you conveniently ignored?