Reason No. 398,285 why it's not good to have your club owned by a Petro-Oligarch

[Crimson Dynasty]

I used those terms on purpose for effect - I was saying they may be our only hope if you care to notice

Sure,.. just lie Trump did (...and does)

[CCTV]

Another nonsensical comment (Sorry, but I call them as I see them).

So just to get this straight, Zelensky is a "fool" because he won't bend to Putin's demand to change the UKRANIAN consitution to serve Russia's needs and interests as opposed to the needs and interests of the UKRANIAN people?


Because the other two conditions or demands are nonsensical anyway.
What's served by Ukraine recognizing Crimea as a Russian territory when it is already a de facto Russian-run territory after Russia annexed (read : STOLE) it in 2014?

And if it was really about Donestk and Lugansk's independence, then what the hell are Russian troops doing al the way in Western Ukraine where Donestk and Lugansk are not?
Why not just station 50,000 Russian troops in Donestk and Lugansk and declare them independent, (pretty much like how he's done to Crimea)?

What does blowing up hospitals and schools in Kyiv in the west of Uktraine and in Mariupol in southern Ukraine do to help those to regions get their independance that the presence of Russian troops in them wouldn't?

And didn't Putin initially claim he was going into Ukraine - a country run by a Jewish President and a Jewish Prime Minister - to.... "de- Nazi-fy" it?

What happened to that?

It's the ugly side of failed diplomacy, called war.

During the Iraq invasion the Palace was bombed on day 1 iirc. And in Libya gadaffis death, sodomized via bayonets was livestreamed by freedom fighters. Neither country the better for it today.

Zelensky could easily have been assassinated already, so what you're seeing is a nation trying to force conditions on another via pressure.

Civilian targets, as heinous as they are, have been and remain a casualty of war. Shelling Eastern Ukraines towns etc kills people, shelling Western Ukraines Town etc kill people.
Drone strikes are made routinely killing civilians today.

The better part of valour would seek for top, top diplomacy in avoiding wars.
The alternative of seeking humanity within wars I'd suggest, whilst perhaps lofty and noble, is a little naive.

Like in Palestine, civilian shields are deemed safer options than fighting/bombing in an isolated area. You have the added bonus of rolling out the dead civilians to garnish support from around the world.
Has been a historical fact that incurring a loss, even commiting the loss yourself, is a good measure for garnishing support.

Same way if the big nations of the world needed to, they'd just take what they offer to pay for.

[teesred]

I think we should be very careful wishing for the destruction if Putin.. apart from the threat of him going down in a blaze of glory, Russia doesn't tend to produce soft, cuddly leaders. If you speak to Russians they talk about genocide against Russians in Ukraine - he has decent support.

As CCTV points out, Zelensky promised to seek peace with Russia but has been convinced to anger Putin by going back on the Budapest agreement, which was supposed to protect Russia from NATO expansion. Just before the invasion Kamala Harris was in Germany saying Ukraine should join NATO.

Remember the Bay of Pigs and the response to Cuban nuclear missiles? That was rightly perceived as Soviet aggression at the time.

Obviously he has great support. He controls everything they see, hear and read.

[Taksin]

Sure,.. just lie Trump did (...and does)

no its the opposite of what Trump did - not sure what's going wrong with your reasoning.. you can't win arguments that way I'm afraid

[Taksin]

Obviously he has great support. He controls everything they see, hear and read.

Well, there is truth in that but the thought control at this end is fairly watertight

I know quite a few Russians, including older ones who liked Stalin. But they are all trying to make their own minds up, as are we

[Taksin]

what the fuck makes it Putin's business to remove them as he claimed he was going to do?

because they are killing Russians

[Taksin]

You're going with the "Two wrongs make a right" level of logic,..... that the rest of us learned in Nursery school, doesn't work?

Because we or some people bombed Afghanistan or Iraq, some time long ago.....ipso facto, therefore it's okay for Putin to do as he pleases.

Is that what you're working with here?

No I wasn't actually. two wrongs make two wrongs

But I was asking your opinion - I don't understand why you and the entire propaganda machine can paint Putin as pure evil and claim he has no right to do what he is doing (when he clearly has more right and his crimes are, so far, a lot smaller) without noticing how we behave.

I'm genuinely interested to hear an answer because it seems very strange to me.

[Taksin]

Even if it's true that there are (Neo-)Nazi's in Ukraine (as there probably are in eveyr other Western country on the face of this planet),

This is a naive comment. I don't know how you can make it having read that article.. (and its your own recourse to two wrongs make a right)

Ukraine has a history by the way - the slaughter of Jews in Ukraine was on a massive scale - and they did it themselves with a little encouragement from the Einsatzgrupen

There is nothing similar in Western countries

[CCTV]

Trust you to find a way to (pointlessly and nonsensically) wedge an anti-Obama talking point into all this,....all while making an equally ridiculous and nonsensical riposte.

What "Agreements"?

You mean like the one that recognized Crimea as a part of sovereign Ukraine after the break-up of the Soviet Union int he early 1990's, in exchange for Ukraine never becoming a Nuclear (weaponized) nation - which it still was when Putin broke that agreement by arbitrarily deciding that Crimea was part of Russia after all and deciding to annex it in 2014?

Those kinds of "agreements"?

You see what I mean?

Trust the residnet Trumpists to have their pro-Putin talking points on the ready, despite not having really thought them through.


And for the record (and also because you seem to have trouble remembering details like this), Obama HIMSELF said that he didn't deserve the Nobel Peace Prize as he hadn't done anything to earn him.

So which part is he getting the blame here for?
Getting an award he had no say in awarding himself and didn't think he should be awarded?
Or serving American foreing interests abroad in practically the same way every single other president before has done?
(whether or not you as a non-American agree with it or not)

Obama was elected on a very optimistic platform of hope, to end the silly wars started by Bush. Instead he oversaw more regime change wars and begun several new conflict zones. He got the Nobel Prize as a result of his pledge.
Is it my fault he made these pledges and others gave him a Nobel Peace Prize ? No
Is it my fault he failed to live up to his very optimistic pledge ? No.

Zelensky was elected in a landslide victory after Ukrainians were very frustrated with the installed pro-nato/eu government. Zelensky like Obama took a huge cup of hope and failed to deliver.
Therein lies the basis of the comparison.

Who broke the nuclear treaties ? Whose put nuclear arms and expanded militarily beyond Germany ?

I've just done a quick interweb search for you.

https://ukrainenewstoday.com/kissinger-ex-envoys-predicted-war-in-ukraine-warned-against-nato-expansion/

"Henry Kissinger, the former secretary of state of the United States, while writing for the Wall Street Journal in 2014 following the annexation of Crimea pointed out that Ukraine cannot act as an outpost for either parties but rather should act as a bridge between the West and Russia.

He said that Ukraine is an inalienable part of Russia’s history and identity – similar but in varying degrees to what Russian president Vladimir Putin claimed in his speech before the so-called ‘military operation’ in Ukraine.

“To treat Ukraine as part of an East-West confrontation would scuttle for decades any prospect to bring Russia and the West — especially Russia and Europe — into a cooperative international system,” Kissinger wrote for the Wall Street Journal.

Kissinger also suggested that Ukrainian independence is a relatively new idea since it has been only two decades that the nation is independent and power-sharing between both Ukrainian speaking west Ukraine and Russophone eastern and southeastern Ukraine should share power to better govern their country."

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You asked what diplomatic efforts. This goes back to post cold War agreements when the ussr broke up, it goes back to nato expansion west of Germany and has been a political disaster in waiting since the mid 2000s.

[Nineteenx]

That's just how things are in the world and essentially peace, is only possible where all involved stop acting the cunt for a long enough time to build trust.

The idea of sanctions is to encourage people to stop acting the cunt, so why aren't we sanctioning Israel and Saudi