Match Thread : FA Cup Final Liverpool v Chelsea

[faridtoxteth]

Well we will just have to agree to disagree Taksin. And as i said earlier, there was an attempt to bring about the 'managed decline' of our great city. You can't deny that the monarchy are more closely aligned with the conservative party and always have been.
Anyway thanks for a quality response, even if I don't agree with the views expressed.

[teesred]

@Taksin, How are Labour assuming American style presidential Statism?
Do you think Ideological division has amplified due to social media?

[CCTV]

From The Independent regarding the booing of The National Anthem on Saturday...

Opinion: This is why Liverpool fans boo the national anthem and this is what would stop it (The Independent)

The contrast between Boris Johnson and Jurgen Klopp could not be starker. The Liverpool manager would make a great statesman. He is honest, takes responsibility, cares about people in worse situations than himself and does his best to contribute to a wider society.

The prime minister is the polar opposite.

When Klopp talks politics, it makes sense. When Johnson pontificates about football, it’s more of the same bluster that has characterised his entire career. On Monday, according to certain sections of the media, Johnson “slapped down” Klopp because the 54-year-old suggested it might be worth at least exploring the reasons why Liverpool fans booed the national anthem and the Queen’s grandson before the FA Cup final on Saturday. A spokesman said the prime minister disagreed with Klopp and called the behaviour of the supporters a “great shame”. It takes some fairly deranged spin to see this as a slap-down. Klopp probably hasn’t even noticed that he’s supposed to have been put in his place.

Like Klopp and Johnson, those who booed the anthem and those who were angered by the jeering are unlikely to find common ground. Will there ever be a time when Liverpool supporters embrace the patriotic experience?

The prime minister’s spokesman talked about shame, an emotion Johnson knows little about. He hasn’t any. Or empathy. The Spectator’s attack on Merseyside when under the 57-year-old’s editorship in 2004 is well known. The editorial column said that the people of Liverpool “see themselves whenever possible as victims, and resent their victim status; yet at the same time they wallow in it”. The article went on to repeat lies about Hillsborough.

What is less well known is Johnson’s supposed mea culpa in the next edition of The Spectator. Headlined “What I should say sorry for”, the piece was written from “a cold, damp three-star hotel in Liverpool” after the old Etonian was ordered to travel north to apologise by Michael Howard, who was then the leader of the Conservative Party (and a Liverpool fan, much to the embarrassment of many Kopites).

“Operation Scouse-grovel”, as the author describes it, is as obscene as the previous editorial. Johnson doubled down. He wrote: “Whatever its mistakes of facts and taste, for which I am sorry, last week’s leading article made a good point: about bogus sentiment, self-pity, risk, and our refusal to see that we may sometimes be the authors of our misfortunes.”

Almost every week Liverpool supporters hear the echo of the words of the man who holds the highest political office in the UK. “You killed your own fans.” “Always the victims.” “The Sun was right, you’re murderers.”

Is there a more “bogus sentiment” than becoming emotional about a national anthem? The royal family are the cornerstone of the class system. The idolisation of a dynastic institution that is completely distanced from ordinary people is bewildering for a large proportion of Liverpool supporters, especially those who have a close-up view of the growing poverty in the UK. The Fans Supporting Foodbanks initiative was founded outside Goodison Park and Anfield – it often gets overlooked that Evertonians are on the receiving end of anti-Scouse invective, too. Supporters of club after club come to Merseyside and rejoice in songs that mock poverty. Some Chelsea fans were chanting about hunger on Saturday. The Liverpool end booed institutional, inherited privilege. Guess which one the nation was outraged by? That was two days before the governor of the Bank of England warned of “apocalyptic” rises in food prices.

Hunger is at the centre of the historic perception of the people of Liverpool. The port, once known as “Torytown” and “the second city of the empire”, first fell out of step with the rest of England after the Potato Famine in the 1840s. Millions of starving Irish landed on the banks of the Mersey. Many stayed. The “othering” of Liverpool stretches back to the mid-19th century.

What does this have to do with football? A lot. The word “Scouse” is an insult that was reappropriated by those it was used against. In the poorest areas of Liverpool a century ago, the malnourished residents – who were the children of immigrants and who mainly identified as Irish – relied on soup kitchens and cheap street vendors for food. What they were served was Scouse, a watery stew. Scouser was a pejorative term used to mock the poorest. When “Feed the Scousers”, echoes around stadiums it is expressing a deep folk memory that is imbued with anti-migrant and anti-Irish sentiment. Those chanting it may not be conscious of the history, but the driving forces for their behaviour can be traced back down many decades. Nowhere else is poverty sneered at in this way by outsiders. No one sings “Feed the Geordies” or “Feed the Mancs” even though other places have much more deprived areas. No wonder citizens of Liverpool are triggered by the chants.

In these circumstances, it is hard to make a case for Scousers to do anything more than boo the national anthem. And then we get to Hillsborough. Britain should still be in a state of uproar about the 1989 disaster that led to the deaths of 97 people. Senior policemen and high-level politicians lied about what happened, covered up the mistakes of officials and threw the blame at innocent supporters. The national press, by and large, amplified the establishment narrative or failed to provide adequate scrutiny of the authorities. A substantial percentage of the British public still will not accept the findings of the longest, most exhaustive inquests in the country’s history. To cap it all, the policemen responsible for the mass death and the cover-up were acquitted of any wrongdoing – even after some of those individuals admitted their culpability in legal settings. Now the biggest miscarriage of justice in the nation’s history is being reduced to football banter. What a country. Play that anthem again so we can all join in.

The FA got off lightly, too. The ruling body held a semi-final at a ground that did not have a safety certificate. Tottenham Hotspur fans had a near miss eight years earlier on the same Leppings Lane terraces where the carnage occurred in 1989. For those whining that Abide With Me was disrupted, the FA did nothing to abide with the bereaved and survivors of an avoidable catastrophe at one of their showpiece games.

The events of the weekend illustrated just how toxic the attitudes towards Hillsborough have become. Family members of the dead were abused heavily on social media by trolls who used Saturday’s events as an excuse to harass those who have fought, in vain, for justice. And we don’t want to hear any complaints about Scousers not showing respect. The booing is a cry for justice, for equality, a howl against hunger and poverty. It is depressing that so many in Britain cannot hear that. Klopp heard it. Johnson never will.

Bringing up the Irish to batter the tories today is a rather unique take on history. The liberals were much worse to the Catholic Irish than the tories during the famine and Cromwell. Those would be 2 rather large Irish grievances with Britain.

The victims, obviously the slur to provoke the scousers. It seems there's an inability to overcome these jibes, which in one sense is the scousers own choice.
I remember Malcom Xs autobiography when discussing the dreaded N word. Essentially he realised he was in control of his reactions and found he could become unmoved from the slur. Removing the energy from the word. Good lesson and advice imo.

Liverpool indeed did setup the food banks. But it is also a heavily left voting city/region.
Pro-immigration, leading to a dilution of labour's capital value, particularly for the lesser skilled working class.
Pro multi-racial diversity, known to decrease civic and social life which can collapse a society.
So in one hand their efforts are to be commended, but on the other hand seemingly unaware of their contributing to the rise in problems at hand.

Overall a touch of balance seems missing from the piece. The basket of deplorables, Tory scum, Nazis, Racists, Far right homosexuals, there is a bit of to and fro to the affairs.

In terms of bias and personalities associated with Politics. There are indeed differences measured between the 2 groups.
Tories tend to operate a 5 channel morality system. Liberals a 2 channel system. Agreement on the 2 is common ground, the other 3 is where they differ.

With respect to philia and phobia, there is a divide between the 2 groups. Tories loving the self, Liberals loving the other.
In studies I've seen the evidence suggests prejudices are stronger in left wing groups than right. Right wingers indeed are more xenophobic, whilst left wingers more xenophilic. The degree of prejudice though being stronger in left wing groups.
Not conclusive but where studied that seems to be the trend.

Therefore it is not surprising that we see the booing of BLM/Other national anthems from right wing groups, and say their own national anthem on the left and critical of Churhill/Poppies/Brexit.

[Taksin]

You can't deny that the monarchy are more closely aligned with the conservative party and always have been.

The first Tory prime minister was in 1762, when the party was underdog to the Whigs.
The first Labour prime minister was in 1924, almost 200 years later.
There have been six Labour prime ministers and about 26 conservative ones.
The monarchy is aligned with the good of the people and country and permits the election of representatives who can form new parties in time in order to pursue that good.

The 'managed decline' story has a bit of conspiracy theory about it and is useful for propaganda purposes. The declining fortunes of Liverpool can be tied to the decline of Empire, the bankruptcy following of WW1, the American revolution and civil war, and even the post WW2 Labour Party economic policy, amongst other factors. There are other hotbeds of socialism that are very much a part of the establishment.

[Taksin]

@Taksin, How are Labour assuming American style presidential Statism?
Do you think Ideological division has amplified due to social media?

It's the dream of all republicans that they get to be the head of state. Cherie Blair famously refused to courtesy to the Queen. The relationship to the Queen is symbolically a sign that there is a higher authority that the politician serves. She represents the nation and its people, they serve us.

We are allowed to hate politicians and to be rude to them without being unpatriotic - the object of our patriotism lies elsewhere. this is different to the USA where its is considered unpatriotic to speak ill of the president (the fact that this has changed in the last two administrations is a sign of the decline and breakup of that country).

The obvious change you'll notice now is that both parties have started having briefings and conferences with British flags hung behind them - it's stolen fro the USA. They see themselves as head of state - Thatcher made a mistaken comment about this and was criticised at the time. Also, it used to be that the monarch had the vehicles of state like the yacht Britannia, but have you seen what Boris has done to the old airforce plane they used to go round in? They also now have these cavalcades of security vehicles to take them round like presidents - that started under Blair. They are getting above their station but part of the reason for that is, in my opinion, because we give them too much importance and demand it from them.

I personally think the intense polarisation has its origins in the collapse of religion. The religious instinct has collapsed into the political realm. People now think their politics make them a good person. That should be a joke but it doesn't seem to be

[teesred]

It's the dream of all republicans that they get to be the head of state. Cherie Blair famously refused to courtesy to the Queen. The relationship to the Queen is symbolically a sign that there is a higher authority that the politician serves. She represents the nation and its people, they serve us.

We are allowed to hate politicians and to be rude to them without being unpatriotic - the object of our patriotism lies elsewhere. this is different to the USA where its is considered unpatriotic to speak ill of the president (the fact that this has changed in the last two administrations is a sign of the decline and breakup of that country).

The obvious change you'll notice now is that both parties have started having briefings and conferences with British flags hung behind them - it's stolen fro the USA. They see themselves as head of state - Thatcher made a mistaken comment about this and was criticised at the time. Also, it used to be that the monarch had the vehicles of state like the yacht Britannia, but have you seen what Boris has done to the old airforce plane they used to go round in? They also now have these cavalcades of security vehicles to take them round like presidents - that started under Blair. They are getting above their station but part of the reason for that is, in my opinion, because we give them too much importance and demand it from them.

I personally think the intense polarisation has its origins in the collapse of religion. The religious instinct has collapsed into the political realm. People now think their politics make them a good person. That should be a joke but it doesn't seem to be

Personally I don't see how that relates to the current Labour Party.
People say things like "they're all the same etc". I disagree, I genuinely think this current version of Labour is as close to representing working class people than they have been for some time. Maybe naivety on my part but that's how I feel.
The mass polarisation has been driven by social media in my opinion too, maybe had roots elsewhere but its sped up due to toxic,fake news and now being so hard to actually find what's true or real.

[Taksin]

Personally I don't see how that relates to the current Labour Party.

You'll see Kier Starmer making speeches in front of the British flag. It may seem like nothing much, but he is entering into the same game that they are all playing and really we are playing the game too. Maybe its the media that forces it, maybe its the voters seeking after false gods.. but it's becoming part of the fabric of politics and the people in power are becoming deeply unimpressive along the way. It must be some kind of paradox - the weaker you are, the more you crave power for power's sake

[teesred]

You'll see Kier Starmer making speeches in front of the British flag. It may seem like nothing much, but he is entering into the same game that they are all playing and really we are playing the game too. Maybe its the media that forces it, maybe its the voters seeking after false gods.. but it's becoming part of the fabric of politics and the people in power are becoming deeply unimpressive along the way. It must be some kind of paradox - the weaker you are, the more you crave power for power's sake

Yeah I've seen him do it.
When did it start? Don't remember seeing it before the pandemic. Part of me thinks it's pandering to the right wingers and Xenophobic element. Maybe why lots of Labour voters see him as Tory-lite.

[Taksin]

I just think it’s the game of prestige they’re all playing at the moment. It’s part of how politics is becoming more and more absurd with them doing more harm than good

For example, the data is in. Lockdowns have already done more harm than good. But no one will admit to it on either side because they all committed to looking really important. Doing the right thing doesn’t actually matter to them. They’d rather censor any discussion of the truth and move on.