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Thread: The Thiago thread

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taksin View Post
    I'm dyslexic as it happens and that lends itself to complex systems thinking - something I've been working in for thirty years. That way of understanding things is diametrically opposed to autism but doesn't mean it is inaccurate. The problem I see with your presentations on here is that you are stuck in the assumption that everything you say is objectively true and there is no other insight that might shed some light on the situation that may even cause you to reconsider. You just bludgeon away, assuming everyone will eventually agree with you. And you also take it personally when they do, further muddying the waters.

    So, as a mate, I try to point that out. You would probably be happier if you could respect other views
    I appreciate what your saying Taksin I really do, I really also wish the conversations were had at the club so Thiago's brilliant passing could be used to maximum benefit - The evidence overwhelmingly supports my views on this - The evidence of so many players at all clubs, but at ours Alonso, Lucas, Gerrard, Hendo, Virgil, Trent as just a handful who have consistently delivered passing the creates goals, that helps the team function at its very very levels, that releases players to assist or assists directly - Thiago did that with considerable aplomb at Barcelona and Bayern - There is no available evidence his passing is doing that at Liverpool - The evidence as in assists per game or passes before the assist or even passes to open up the game in such a way it has unquestionably made a goal possible is there in abundance at Barcelona and Bayern it is not there in a Red shirt

    I remain confident and hopeful he will start to produce it for us, if I am wrong and doing what you suggest, show me the evidence, someone put together the clips of him doing those things in a Liverpool shirt - I'll be waiting a long time

    We're talking about things that I have long LONG looked at and given credit for that a great many people don't, the pass before the assist, the pass or tackle or interception that undoubtedly opens up the play to make a goal possible, the playmakers pass that isn't the obvious. These are all things I always look for, so I'm asking for the evidence as having seen all those players listed do that in abundance over many years, and the likes of Modric, Xavi and others at other clubs, I obviously really need someone to explain this entirely different version of this I am somehow missing
    Last edited by Nineteenx; 18th May 2022 at 11:50 AM.
    "If Everton were playing at the bottom of my garden, i'd close the curtains”

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nineteenx View Post
    or even passes to open up the game in such a way it has unquestionably made a goal possible
    That is definitely debatable. You are putting a very specific slant on this standard (and I accept your challenge won't be met by video evidence), which means you will convict him of being ineffective until you see certain kinds of passes taking place. To describe him as all fur coat and no knickers is an unequivocal insult. But he is in fact wearing some lovely, silky, see-through knickers as most people can see. Most can see that he is man of the match, highly important, contributing to our defensive and offensive play, putting in some great passes- short and long, putting in great passes that are not capitalised upon etc etc

    His recent period of good fitness and starts has coincided with a period of games where the opposition has made the final third cramped, which has altered our play. Salah hasn't looked himself either - it could be confidence but it could also be that he is being bound up by more defensively organised teams. It looks to me that there aren't as many passes on to Salah as there used to be. We also don't really look as counter attacking as we used to - the opposition is setting up to remove that side of our play. We've had to bring on Origi to cope with this and that isn't (solely) because the midfield is failing

    I would compare this Thiago problem to Diaz. He could be accused of wearing no knickers if we wanted to be picky but on the other hand he looks shit hot. He looks like he is going to score all kinds of goals for us, some spectacular ones too so long as he remains fit. That potential is a part of his value - it scares the opposition. So too with Thiago. The opposition understands that the prowess is there, 5 foot 6, in the middle of the park. They are always on the back foot

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taksin View Post
    That is definitely debatable. You are putting a very specific slant on this standard (and I accept your challenge won't be met by video evidence), which means you will convict him of being ineffective until you see certain kinds of passes taking place. To describe him as all fur coat and no knickers is an unequivocal insult. But he is in fact wearing some lovely, silky, see-through knickers as most people can see. Most can see that he is man of the match, highly important, contributing to our defensive and offensive play, putting in some great passes- short and long, putting in great passes that are not capitalised upon etc etc

    His recent period of good fitness and starts has coincided with a period of games where the opposition has made the final third cramped, which has altered our play. Salah hasn't looked himself either - it could be confidence but it could also be that he is being bound up by more defensively organised teams. It looks to me that there aren't as many passes on to Salah as there used to be. We also don't really look as counter attacking as we used to - the opposition is setting up to remove that side of our play. We've had to bring on Origi to cope with this and that isn't (solely) because the midfield is failing

    I would compare this Thiago problem to Diaz. He could be accused of wearing no knickers if we wanted to be picky but on the other hand he looks shit hot. He looks like he is going to score all kinds of goals for us, some spectacular ones too so long as he remains fit. That potential is a part of his value - it scares the opposition. So too with Thiago. The opposition understands that the prowess is there, 5 foot 6, in the middle of the park. They are always on the back foot
    I think Thiago is an incredible player, I think he is absolutely sensational without the ball in some games, I only call him all fur coat and no knickers for Steveo's benefit Your post actually reaffirms much of what I say, he does play some absolutely fabulous passes, a glory to behold, but they don't lead to anything after that pass, not because they're wasted in some way, as glorious as they are, they are too frequently not the right glorious pass

    In the patterns of our play, Mo has very rarely ever been found or released by passing from the areas Thiago's trying to do it from, it's not really on to do it from there, Mo's predominantly been released from No6, RCM, RB LCB and Big Bear- This won't be popular, and it actually isn't a dig at Thiago, people always seem to take any critique as being a dig, when it's an honest observation, but Mo's poor form has coincided with Thiago trying to dominate the proceedings with the ball, which might be what Jurgen or other coach wants to happen, but makes no sense to me, as we have so many players capable with the ball and creating from different areas, trying to have a designated playmaker weakens us significantly.

    The reasons I would give for this are: Finding Mo or releasing him from the areas Thiago gets on the ball isn't where Mo is most easily released from - Thiago trying to be a designated playmaker everything goes through dominating play, dramatically reduces the number of opportunities each game for players who have a substantial history of releasing Mo or releasing Trent to release Mo (Virgil, Hendo No6, Alisson) attempting to do so

    Trying to have a player at LCM as a designated playmaker or dominate the ball in our set up, well, it's a non starter for me, it doesn't work

    Look how evenly across all the players the play was spread last night, look at how from No6 Milner then Hendo simply, without any Hollywood balls played the ball to different players in different areas, several play makers passes from both, playing it to the right player (for me at least) who wasn't the obvious player to create a situation we could fashion an opportunity from

    Is LCM a good area to find Trent from for him to make the play and release his forward runs for him to then release Mo for example? No it very pertinently is not

    Is a player trying to dominate with the ball at LCM and constantly coming deep to get on it at LCM limiting the opportunities for Trent to get on it deep in the process going to limit the opportunities for Trent to make the play and release Mo? Yes

    Is a player trying to dominate with the ball at LCM and constantly coming deep to get on it at LCM limiting the opportunities for Virgil to get on it deep in the process and for Virgil to play more and attempt more of his trademark balls to release Mo or find him in isolation, and/or release Trent connecting his forward run so Trent and Mo are 2v1 against the full back? Yes it is

    It's very simple, black and white, cut and dried for me, it's about angles and long standing developed passages of play that are effective even though the opposition expects them, the angles for Virgil and Trent to do what they do are there in their positions, they're not there at LCM
    "If Everton were playing at the bottom of my garden, i'd close the curtains”

  4. #64
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    @19 you've recalled incorrectly about Thiago a few times.

    Goals & assists, contributions in a game like key passes.

    Hendo in the PL
    5 assists
    1.1 key passes a game
    85.2% passing accuracy
    1.7 tackles-or-intercepts a game
    0.5 dribbles per game

    Thiago in the PL
    3 assists
    1.2 key passes a game
    89.2%
    2.9 tackles-or-intercepts a game
    0.8 dribbles per game

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCTV View Post
    @19 you've recalled incorrectly about Thiago a few times.

    Goals & assists, contributions in a game like key passes.

    Hendo in the PL
    5 assists
    1.1 key passes a game
    85.2% passing accuracy
    1.7 tackles-or-intercepts a game
    0.5 dribbles per game

    Thiago in the PL
    3 assists
    1.2 key passes a game
    89.2%
    2.9 tackles-or-intercepts a game
    0.8 dribbles per game
    Their definition of a key pass and my definition of a key pass are very different, passing it simply to a player who might then have a shot from outside the area, isn't a key pass, another example of stats not really meaning anything - I remember very distinctly you posting stats after one game and seeing Thiago had 2 key passes and asking you directly about it, in that game they were both rudimentary 5 yard passes in keeping possession not even intended to set a player away for a shot, who decided to drive with the ball and take one

    The key passes stat, until they learn what an actual key pass is, means absolutely nothing

    These stats mean nothing

    Different types of player, both playing the game in different ways, in a recent match thread I made the point about preference, how I preferred Hendo's incredibly intelligent and astute positioning and pressing and how he essentially hemmed players in for other players to join so we nicked the ball with 2 or 3 players around it to support it to players throwing themselves to ground and into tackles

    How Hendo plays the game an our system, compared to how Thiago and fab play, they're both going to get more tackles/intercepts a game, that's a given, do they hem players in as brilliantly as Hendo for us to collectively nick possession as frequently or at all? Not even fucking close, but there isn't a stats for that
    Last edited by Nineteenx; 18th May 2022 at 12:47 PM.
    "If Everton were playing at the bottom of my garden, i'd close the curtains”

  6. #66
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    For the benefit of everyone else, if you don't know

    The middle class wanker stats site people's definition of a key pass is a pass leading to a shot on goal

    As is very obvious, that very frequently is not at all accurate, as numerous times in every game players take shots on, after having done a lot of brilliant individual work, or to have a pop from distance when the pass hasn't even been intended to set them away or release them in a position to shoot

    It might be helpful and become a meaningful stats if the middle class wankers could restrict counting it as a key pass for the instances it actually was

    I remember very distinctly last season, when Steveo and kev were busy and happily bashing Bobby at every opportunity and writing him off, both of them having a go at me as Bobby, just on from the bench passed a simple ball to one of our lads who then scored a blinder, as I was championing Bobby, saying yeeeeaaaaaaah just on and and assist already, in full knowledge that his pass, although the pass before the goal, wasn't really that contributory, but was an assist no the less

    They were "You can't call that an assist" etc etc etc it was an assist technically, revealing the issue with the key passes stat, it lists players as having made key passes that like Bobby's assist, weren't remotely contributory to the shot on target

    Edit: Loooooooooooooool I was scratching my head wondering where Thiago's 3rd assist came from Diaz's goal v Spurs completely and utterly reinforcing my point on my own piss taking of Steveo and Kev from Bobby's 'nothing' assist they were so objectional too, and playing at LCM and giving it simply to players like DIaz who will then create a shooting opportunity for himself, thus making a nothing 5 yard pass a key one jesus fucking wept
    Last edited by Nineteenx; 18th May 2022 at 01:07 PM.
    "If Everton were playing at the bottom of my garden, i'd close the curtains”

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nineteenx View Post
    Their definition of a key pass and my definition of a key pass are very different, passing it simply to a player who might then have a shot from outside the area, isn't a key pass, another example of stats not really meaning anything - I remember very distinctly you posting stats after one game and seeing Thiago had 2 key passes and asking you directly about it, in that game they were both rudimentary 5 yard passes in keeping possession not even intended to set a player away for a shot, who decided to drive with the ball and take one

    The key passes stat, until they learn what an actual key pass is, means absolutely nothing

    These stats mean nothing

    Different types of player, both playing the game in different ways, in a recent match thread I made the point about preference, how I preferred Hendo's incredibly intelligent and astute positioning and pressing and how he essentially hemmed players in for other players to join so we nicked the ball with 2 or 3 players around it to support it to players throwing themselves to ground and into tackles

    How Hendo plays the game an our system, compared to how Thiago and fab play, they're both going to get more tackles/intercepts a game, that's a given, do they hem players in as brilliantly as Hendo for us to collectively nick possession as frequently or at all? Not even fucking close, but there isn't a stats for that
    Your same criticism can and should be applied to assists, or even goals.

    A pass completed can be in part the receivers touch etc
    A pass before the assist can be rolling the ball 5 yards for Trent to deliver a pin point keypass&assist for Bobby's goal.

    You've asked for evidence of the possibility of a goal.
    In the Premier league he is only marginally better than Hendo in providing passes that lead to a shot on goal.

    He dribbles more, he wins the ball more

  8. #68
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    Key passes & assists correlate

    Top 5 assisters in the PL
    Salah
    Trent
    Robbo
    Mount
    Bowen

    Top 3 key passers per game at LFC, Top at Chelsea and marginally 3rd at West Ham (1.3, 1.3, 1.2)

    Top5 key passers in the league per game
    Kdb
    Trent
    Fernandes
    Son
    Odergard

    Robbo 9th
    Salah 11th
    Mount 13th
    Bowen 51st tied with a fair few as you go down the league

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCTV View Post
    Key passes & assists correlate

    Top 5 assisters in the PL
    Salah
    Trent
    Robbo

    Top5 key passers in the league per game
    Kdb
    Trent
    Those players key passes are key passes and very obviously so, thanks for that, you make my point about a designated playmaker operating at LCM where the angles to release Mo and Trent aren't there for them dominating the ball and Trent and Mo having hugely reduced opportunities to create, make the play and contribute genuine key passes and assists very well indeed, nice work
    "If Everton were playing at the bottom of my garden, i'd close the curtains”

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nineteenx View Post
    Your post actually reaffirms much of what I say, he does play some absolutely fabulous passes, but they don't lead to anything after that pass
    What you mean here is they don't lead to anything immediately after the pass

    Because there is no doubt that Thiago's passes do lead to much of our good play, the play that results in goals. He often does things to settle down nervousness when we have lost composure, things that start a movement - often switching play in two directions within a few passes, getting us out of midfield and onto the wing where we can start an attack, intercepting an opposition move and getting things moving forward very quickly etc etc

    These things are real and much appreciated. He also does many of them better than anyone else. that's why so many people are impressed with him despite not so many assists (yet)

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