General transfer thread (everything not LFC) 22/23

[Taksin]

I imagine you should easily be able to find it then.

Yes.

On the 8th of June in the general transfer thread you partially quoted me saying

There is a reason why we are sat behind our laptops and are not the owners of the best team in the world

And you responded with

Klopp.

Now, you’re answer doesn’t make logical sense, but it certainly qualifies as one more instance of your attributing our success to the talent of one man and dismissing the contribution of a great number of other influential people.

It’s a more or less constant theme of yours which you only qualify when picked up on it and, rather than face the interesting questions like those above about your attitude towards Conte and Levy, you return to squabbles about ‘I never said that’

[Insidious]

All Arsenal had to do to get 4th was get a draw in last month's North London Derby but Spurs win and leapfrogged them.

True.

I can't remember which game it was, but they lost an "easier" fixture not long before the Tottenham game. I have always hated the idea of needing a so-called "6-pointer" go your way so as far as I see it, Arsenal should have done everything within their power to ensure that Spurs were at least 4 points behind to ensure that said leap-frogging couldn't happen.

In the same way I don't think we should (ideally) ever "have" to beat Man City to win the title as it's just too much pressure on those matches - 108 of the 114 points to play for don't come from playing their lot (and vice versa for them playing us) and the aim should really be about getting as many of those 108 as possible so those 2 games are essentially a free hit.

[Steveo]

Yes.

On the 8th of June in the general transfer thread you partially quoted me saying



And you responded with



Now, you’re answer doesn’t make logical sense, but it certainly qualifies as one more instance of your attributing our success to the talent of one man and dismissing the contribution of a great number of other influential people.

It’s a more or less constant theme of yours which you only qualify when picked up on it and, rather than face the interesting questions like those above about your attitude towards Conte and Levy, you return to squabbles about ‘I never said that’

Come now Taksin.

Apart from us not being “the best team in the world”, which we clearly are not, that was quite an obvious little joke with you. You made a comment which I felt was massively OTT so I came back with a little jest - call it a wind up if you like. I honestly didn’t expect or want it to cause you such injury.


Next you will be holding Klopp to his use of the word “little” when referring to the AFCON.


And as I have repeatedly stated imo Klopp is overwhelmingly the major reason for almost every upturn in output across the entire club. I am not alone in that belief. I don’t understand what part of it troubles you so.

You want to give uncle Henry all the plaudits - be my guest but please stop the pretence that we would be doing anything remotely as we have had Ulla not told Jurgen to turn United down.

What I believe Conte would achieve here is no more relevant than the question I asked. What if Jurgen had gone to United….? Maybe start from that which almost came to pass and see where it leads you.

[Steveo]

Would United’s owners - as ours, suddenly become far more astute? The club much better run? Would they not have attracted the right type of player with Klopp in situ? Does Mané (on the verge of signing for United as it was until Klopp called him) and Gini sign of him? Salah? Virgil? Fabinho..?

Would he not surely have been able to take their superior squad to ours (as of 2015) to the same heights or further and quicker?

Obviously it all requires some speculation but I think many would have a good inkling.

Who other than Klopp do we believe FSG could have found to do what he has for such a relatively small outlay?

This is the question I was asking long before talk of Conte.

[teesred]

https://www.sportbible.com/football/liverpool-were-prepared-to-pay-73-million-for-jadon-sancho-20220621

One 22 year old turned us down to go get a big paycheck and play for a club that's headed down into the gutter.
While another 22 year old turned down the big paycheck and better terms to come play Champions League football with us and win trophies under Klopp (while not breaking our wage structure).

I hope Bellingham (or his people) have more sense when his time to move on next summer comes around.

Or he could have a word with his former Dortmund teammate Sancho and see just how comfort that 300k a week paycheck gives you when you're wasting the best years of your professional life in a losing clownshow.

I think Bellingham will go to Real.

[Taksin]

Come now Taksin.

Alternatively you could admit that I found what you challenged me to find, that you said what I said you had said and that you think what I believe you think. You've only gone and repeated it anyway in your defence of this simple retrieval of your statement.

Arguing is much easier if you stick to the actual facts and statements, but then you need to be interested in finding the truth to have a meaningful argument.

[Insidious]

I think Bellingham will go to Real.

He actually has time (given his age) to spend 3-5 years with us and still go to Real for a number of years if he wants - he could absolutely hoover up personal accolades over the course of his career depending on his choices.

[Taksin]

I came back with a little jest - call it a wind up if you like. I honestly didn’t expect or want it to cause you such injury.

stop insinuating weakness on my part. I stated what you have said over and over again. You said you hadn't said it. I showed you had. There is no injury to me in that process.

In the very same post you state

And as I have repeatedly stated imo Klopp is overwhelmingly the major reason for almost every upturn in output across the entire club.

That's what I was pointing out. That what I said. That's what you said you hadn't said. Please just stick to your own position.

I don’t understand what part of it troubles you so.

It doesn't trouble me. I find the conversation interesting because your statements don't add up and I enjoy discussion and debate

You want to give uncle Henry all the plaudits

No, I'm a big fan of Jurgen Klopp, thanks very much. If you could follow an argument, you would be able to understand this

What I believe Conte would achieve here is no more relevant than the question I asked.

The reason it is relevant is because your attitude is inconsistent.

Conte's appointment is shrewd, but there is no shrewdness to the Klopp appointment
Our players sign because of the draw of Klopp, but Klopp doesn't sign because of the draw of LFC
Conte is turning that club around, but we would be outside the top four without Kolpp. Couln't Conte get this club into the top four? It's a fair question
Spurs are being well run, something to fear, it was wrong to laugh at them (whoever did that), Levy must be admired, but we aren't being well run and FSG are not to be admired? We would be languishing as also rans without Klopp

What if Jurgen had gone to United….?

I suspect he would have had trouble at United as so many decent managers have of late because success starts upstairs. That's my belief. I suspect he would have left under a cloud within a short space of time.

So my position is realistic - I look at the difficulty of running a club in its entirety. Your position is more magical and fantastical. A Roy of the Rovers belief in a single personality changing everything

[Steveo]

Alternatively you could admit that I found what you challenged me to find, that you said what I said you had said and that you think what I believe you think. You've only gone and repeated it anyway in your defence of this simple retrieval of your statement.

Arguing is much easier if you stick to the actual facts and statements, but then you need to be interested in finding the truth to have a meaningful argument.

Oh come on dude I thought you were a little more mature. You have dug up my repost to your own rather silly comment which was a deliberate attempt by you to put the success we have enjoyed at the feet of the owners rather than the manager.

This is a narrative you relentlessly try to push and it really doesn't stand scrutiny. The evidence pre Klopp and post Klopp will prove more conclusive but nevertheless we can see what happens in a relatively short space of time after Jurgen arrives.

See below for some more indicators.





Klopp

In 20 years Dortmund have won 2 league titles - both under manager Klopp.

In 20 years Dortmund have made it to 1 European Cup Final - under manager Klopp

In 32 years Liverpool have won 1 league title - under manager Klopp

In 38 years Liverpool have reached 5 European Cup finals, Klopp only 6 years as manager has taken us to 3 of them.


Either he is a monumentally, spectacular and brilliant picker of good owners, OR something else is at play



As for United

Well, 13 times League winners in 54 years - all 13 of them for Ferguson.

2 times European Cup winners since 1967 (53 years!) both of them for Ferguson.

4 European Cup finalists in 54 years - all of them for Ferguson.

Again - one might say he to got in the hot seat JUST as the owners were terrific and departed the INSTANT they went to shite.



So it’s clear in these instances that the managers are absolutely the key drivers.

Certainly it seems they are key IF we look at sustained periods of dominance. Obviously - if owners like Roman or Mansour are going to regularly source and pay for the very best managers and ply them with near limitless funds, that is going to become difficult to fight, but again, it seems even that model is utterly dependent on genuine quality in the hot seat.

[Steveo]

@ Taksin.

Even when joking - saying that "Klopp" is "a reason we are sat behind our laptops and are not the owners of the best team in the world" is not the same as saying that Klopp is the ONLY reason why we have been successful.

I would hope you understand the difference.

BTW I think your views on Klopp at United are pretty thin and clearly heavily tainted with bias, but there you have it.

If you really are interested in anything beyond your notion that it all stems from the top - read this from Ferguson and Alan Shearer BEFORE Klopp had completed his first week at Melwood.

"Scottish legend worried by Klopp's ability to transform Reds
Describing Klopp as a "strong, determined personality" who he "admires", the Scotsman told of how the former Borussia Dortmund boss' career so far has been a "stellar rise to the top".
All of this is a cause for concern for Ferguson and fellow United supporters, scared that Klopp could shake up the balance of footballing power in the North-West.



https://www.vavel.com/en/football/2015/10/09/liverpool-fc/551618-alex-ferguson-scared-of-jurgen-klopp.html


https://sports.coral.co.uk/news/archive/2015/10/klopp-to-breathe-new-life-into-anfield_102877.html

Then read this from this summer.. Do you think perhaps Shearer might know a little bit about these things - seeing as he has won a league title himself? I also wonder if you be confusing Alan Shearer's words with mine?

"There is so much to admire about Liverpool at the moment, and all of it is down to one man - Jurgen Klopp.

His players have been phenomenal to get them to this stage of the season with two trophies in the bag and the chance of two more to come, but he is the one who sets the tone for everything they do.

I loved seeing him celebrate on the Wembley pitch with his players, his staff and of course the fans after winning the FA Cup on Saturday.

Klopp deserves it, because he has built it - it all starts with him."


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/61452888