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Thread: Match Thread: Liverpool v Crystal Palace

  1. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEGS View Post
    Yep agreed you miss those sorts CCTV they never moan and do a solid job.

    Utd used to have that with Welbeck/O'Shea not world beaters but you know they will play for the team.

    Onto last night a draw isnt bad when you look at what Darwin did but people will be angry/upset as they know you need 90+ to win the title.

    ***My mindset last few seasons has always been City will win it they just have a better squad and their titles prove it.

    We all want to win nobody wants to lose/draw my thinking is without some loon with loads of dough or state funding we just cant compete season after season.

    I think the way we do it is the right organic way its just whilst countries own clubs it is mighty hard to beat them.
    I find the latter feelings difficult to accept, from here on out above ***

    I do agree a business should be run sensibly. I have justified each of the oil clubs as businesses, as their investments today have paid off.
    Their massive spending grew their annual revenues artificially and they are amongst the biggest earning clubs today.
    The massive spending has seen asset growth in the billions. Sell today after their big spends and they are quids in. As an investment you can't complain about it. Forced to sell Roman would have pocketed 1 billion profit, with debt from spending paid off.

    As a football fan, I supported FFP. It essentially arose to stop clubs going bust, and in part to stop this new business strategy from wealthy individuals/foreigners and their oil clubs.
    A few clubs who were competing with that artificial inflation at the top end of the market, paid the price for poor enforcement and competing.
    We being below this market mostly have avoided the worst of it, but the ripple down effect was there and we also rose up the ranks into it.
    People argued it was a restriction on those clubs, many smaller clubs dreaming, even some of our own fans that we might get a big spender.
    For me that argument is pretty redundant as there are plenty of restrictions. PL, FA, UEFA, FIFA as authorities. PL giving the money out not really in accordance with who brought in the money, costs lfc and manu.
    The ESL (I'd argue better left to owners than UEFA) saw owners restricted by fans media politicians, eufa and fifa.
    There's also the Xenophobic!!! homegrown rule restriction on squads etc

    I've pilloried the CAS routinely, who overturned cities ban. Noods despised the CAS too iirc. Letting doppers and cheats off with second chances in numerous sports.
    As bad as Uefa etc are the CAS is a cancer on sport.
    Man City should have been sat out of last years CL, and perhaps this year's too iirc.
    Facing a massive financial issue as the CL brings in a lot of revenue each year. It would also have brought risk to city of losing players to teams with CL football. It provides a lot of top tier minutes in addition to the league for big players.
    You can add on a +6 points claim from VAR to city each year in the PL. A lower net spend, and likely lower wages than our main rival over these years.

    If you want reasons to think we couldn't even compete with city there's enough to imagine above.

    Yet over 4 seasons in this reality, we have managed to

    Have 2 seasons where we pushed city to the wire in the league.
    They had a minor collapse related to injury when we won the league.
    We had only a marginally worse collapse with a much more injury plagued season. They won that league.
    Over these last 4 seasons our points tallies are almost the same. We did this on the way up.

    We did this whilst being better than them in the CL.
    We only had one season, last years, where our squad was deep enough to be able to compete for the domestic cups, we won both.

    Yet we are supposed to believe that what we are doing, can't be expected, can't be done within the restraints of our own strategy, and can't be just a bit better.

    At the start of last year, as I recall, both Real & LFC had a net spend less than that that of Leeds United over the preceeding 6/7 seasons. Largely due to PL money and Leeds spending to avoid the drop, secured by parachute payments. No CL parachute payments for our stability.
    Real have managed their way through these years well also, they've remained competitive hoovering up CL titles. Both of us with large leeway with regards FFP
    I believe ourselves and city have overtaken united now as top earners in England on account of their woes. That's where our revenue stream is at.

    We are a top earner in the PL now, we've done what we've done so far on the up, Real have done what they've done, why should we stop improving now.

    Amortisation of contracts, means bringing in players ahead of time doesn't really cost the club a whole lot on paper.
    Bellingham for example, costing 100m transfer fee & 150kpw would cost 146mill roughly over 6 seasons.
    24.5million per season. It would cost us in terms of accounts 24.5 million this year to bring him in a year earlier as I understand the accounting practices. And 24.5 million thereafter each season.
    If they turn out to be key men, that cost of bringing him in earlier could be written off, in part or full, or even turned into a profit.
    Diaz is an example of how buying a player a little earlier in January can be worth the earlier costs that inevitably have to be paid.

    For me this summer should be one of further investment. City our rivals have had a fair bit of turnover too. It would be a good time to advance our squad more aggressively.
    It can be done within the restraints of FFP and on the strength of the clubs accounts.

    Anyway, thats my perspective and explanation. Against a general feeling like yours, and others

    Expect more, as on paper we now have more revenue and clout to compete relative to others than before.
    Built on top 4 finishes and CL football financially, the real clout comes with winning titles.

  2. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by jr81 View Post
    On the goal we conceded last night, anyone wonder why we have to tey play that as offside? I mean vvd is supposed to be one of the quickest defenders around. He can see everything develop in for t so couldn't he drop off and get across without the risk of the offside? I'm not blaming vvd for the trying to catch them offside as I'm sure it's the plan from klopp, but it is very risky and we have been caught a few times with it. Maybe not enough to be worried about it?
    My recollection is VVD was marking Zaha who runs over to Nat, Virgil lets him go holding his position without a whole lot else on.

    He's playing offside as we do, but can't catch Zaha on the cover with a running start.
    I was disappointed with him too as it wasn't the best or nicest way to assist Nat the lesser CB.
    Leaving Zaha go 1v1 coming in from a blindside of sorts.

  3. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCTV View Post
    My recollection is VVD was marking Zaha who runs over to Nat, Virgil lets him go holding his position without a whole lot else on.

    He's playing offside as we do, but can't catch Zaha on the cover with a running start.
    I was disappointed with him too as it wasn't the best or nicest way to assist Nat the lesser CB.
    Leaving Zaha go 1v1 coming in from a blindside of sorts.
    Yes, it's the running start that Zaha has that catches vvd due to playing offside. I just feel we don't always need to try the offside when vvd could see it all developing. He could have kept stride and would have won the race.

    Someone mentioned that if the strikers were firing it wouldn't have mattered. That is correct and that's what helped a lot last year. The current stat is in our last 6? games we conceded first. We haven't lost any but drawn the last 2 cos our front line weren't firing. With a new front line this year if we are not firing, maybe not being so risky with those offsides would be an idea.

    Just something I was thinking about. I always hated the high line due to the chnace of those goals, but in fairness we have been successful with it so maybe I'm over thinking it.

  4. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by jr81 View Post
    Yes, it's the running start that Zaha has that catches vvd due to playing offside. I just feel we don't always need to try the offside when vvd could see it all developing. He could have kept stride and would have won the race.

    Someone mentioned that if the strikers were firing it wouldn't have mattered. That is correct and that's what helped a lot last year. The current stat is in our last 6? games we conceded first. We haven't lost any but drawn the last 2 cos our front line weren't firing. With a new front line this year if we are not firing, maybe not being so risky with those offsides would be an idea.

    Just something I was thinking about. I always hated the high line due to the chnace of those goals, but in fairness we have been successful with it so maybe I'm over thinking it.
    We play play offside loads and get loads right tbf.
    Virgil made his call in the moment and it's what we do. Nat isn't 1st choice.
    Not seen enough video but it looked like he could have followed Zaha over a bit more just to close the distance.
    He got fairly close to getting back tbf in the end as it was, and I don't think there was too much risk in VVD getting closer to Philips/Zaha at that time.
    In many ways he did the right things. Following the system.

    There are 2 ends of the pitch, they seem a bit stiffled by imbalances in midfield as I see it, no longer accentuating our defence and attack.

    Like on paper look to the Left & Right of Fabinho in terms of defensive nous

    .......Milner .........................Elliot
    ........................Fabinho
    Robbo Virgil ....................Philips Trent

    Elliot most advanced of the 3 Midfielders
    Philips the weaker CB
    And Trent the weaker fullback defensively.

  5. #325
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    Well CCTV as I said it cant be done over a long period of time.

    Our transfer record has been pretty much spot on for most of our big signings, the problem will arrive when we have a bad window which we will at some point.

    We are then stuck with duds and we cant do what City/Chelsea do and bin them off on loan or for cheap fee.

    Madrid are different to us the vast majority of overseas players want to play for them so they can bully the selling team we cant really do that.

    We've done very well so far and I hope it continues but law of averages tells me it not last.

  6. #326
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    We have done well because of Jurgen Klopp. Virgil doesn’t even come here without him. Ditto Alisson. Anyone believe we get close to £140 million for Coutts without Klopp producing that fab 4? No chance. Klopp got him looking like one of the best on the planet - the. Made him captain.

    That’s the incident that catapulted us up a level.

    People can talk about Edwards and data analytics till the cows come home. It helps for sure BUT the reason so many key transfers have worked is the main man. It’s his personality that has changed the club from top to bottom - doubters to believers. That’s where the real hard yards are made up. Ferguson knew it before Klopp walked through the door.

    With better backing we would have totally dominated City and very likely won 2 or 3 times more than we have. Still grateful but that’s the reality. We have done amazingly well despite the juggling (sell to buy BS) Klopp has had to contend with, it must be exhausting for him and the squad that isn’t really and truthfully at a level to compete without being on full power all the time.

    Still hoping for a great season BTW - far too early to judge it after 2 games
    Last edited by Steveo; 17th August 2022 at 10:12 AM.

  7. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steveo View Post
    We have done well because of Jurgen Klopp. Virgil doesn’t even come here without him. Ditto Alisson. Anyone believe we get close to £140 million for Coutts without Klopp producing that fab 4? No chance. Klopp got him looking like one of the best on the planet - the. Made him captain.

    That’s the incident that catapulted us up a level.

    People can talk about Edwards and data analytics till the cows come home. It helps for sure BUT the reason so many key transfers have worked is the main man. It’s his personality that has changed the club from top to bottom - doubters to believers. That’s where the real hard yards are made up. Ferguson knew it before Klopp walked through the door.

    With better backing we would have totally dominated City and very likely won 2 or 3 times more than we have. Still grateful but that’s the reality. We have done amazingly well despite the juggling (sell to buy BS) Klopp has had to contend with, it must be exhausting for him and the squad that isn’t really and truthfully at a level to compete without being on full power all the time.

    Still hoping for a great season BTW - far too early to judge it after 2 games
    This is becoming a Credo. More and more carefully crafted each time

    Perhaps we should all whisper it solemnly in unison before every match

    And then at the end we say - ‘and James Milner is in his mid thirties for fucks sake’

  8. #328
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    Sure... could do that...Or.. we could just listen to the people who really know..



    See if you can spot where the magic really is..

  9. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEGS View Post
    Well CCTV as I said it cant be done over a long period of time.

    Our transfer record has been pretty much spot on for most of our big signings, the problem will arrive when we have a bad window which we will at some point.

    We are then stuck with duds and we cant do what City/Chelsea do and bin them off on loan or for cheap fee.

    Madrid are different to us the vast majority of overseas players want to play for them so they can bully the selling team we cant really do that.

    We've done very well so far and I hope it continues but law of averages tells me it not last.
    Real are indeed above us in the pecking order. We've only won 6 Champion Leagues, badstars beat us in 2 finals under Klopp. It gives them clout, see Touchy. They paid a good price for him tbf £72mill, above his market value £54 mill. We also have clout though.

    At the start of last season, both Real and ourselves were below Leeds in net spend over the previous 6-7 windows.
    We had net spent more than Real over that period at that time. And as was posted on here, loads of teams in the pl have outspent us under Klopp.
    When we sacked BR Klopp was the majority of fans choice, 70% iirc. Second was Carlo, who beat Klopp in the second final v Madrid. Your perspective better fits those days.

    Net spend & wage bills were correlated with league positions. N4C would talk about this a fair bit, and added the detail that wages were a better predictor variable. Which you would kind of expect.
    As more successful clubs get more money, and more money increases the chances of improving/success.
    The big clubs got big money cause of their success, which helps stay on top. The oil clubs got big money cause of oil, which brought them success.
    As we've seen, you can spend a lot of money on players (fees), but it's not so easy landing the best players (higher wages) with lower clout. See everton.

    But this reality, more money more success, and more success more money, with respect to expectation is more in Liverpools favour now than ever.

    Back then it was Uniteds wealth off their boom, the big commercial difference, the spending of the 2 oils clubs.
    We are much better off relative to our other rivals now in both the PL and CL. We have more natural growth than city to capitalise on.

    The bans that have been overturned have still changed the market I believe.
    The big clubs revolt against Uefa, has shown the big clubs are willing to make moves now. Each of them pissed off to some degree by failing ffp/uefa/cas.
    I'm expecting their discontent to see FFP becoming enforced, and more effective, even by the oil clubs themselves.
    As if not the great clubs of Europe have had time to learn from their panicked announcement as uefa made an absolute shit show of the new CL format for 2024/25.

    If jwh asked me, I'd say give the fans a 70% reduction on match day ticket costs, so you can get the esl up as a new champions league and maximise the global thirst for elite club. Whilst offering up more matchday tickets as the ESL would've provided more match day tickets with more games to play each year.

  10. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianlfc View Post
    2 games in and "Jurgen Souness Klopp"
    Jesus wept.
    If you look at it purely in terms of what worked brilliantly and won us the major trophies, the 2 big ones the chosen replacements not facilitating that continuing or improving the team, then Fab for Hendo and Thiago for Gini have been the equivalent of Julian Dicks for Staunton Paul Stewart for Beardsley without a doubt, which is very Souness like to be fair

    To Souness' credit he brought through Fowler and MacManaman, while Jurgen has given us Elliott runs around a lot produced nothing and doesn't provide the link up/triangle with Trent and Mo and hopeless Jones
    "If Everton were playing at the bottom of my garden, i'd close the curtains”

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