Your team v Ajax (Champion's League group stage, second game)

[Nineteenx]

Without Fabinho we don't win number 6 or 19, he was the fulcrum...yet we are always told he is shite. He is having a very poor season this term no doubt, but we all know how utterly instrumental he was in our big wins. In fact he is so instrumental still - just look what happens when he is so off form.

You believe that, I've never rated him, he can have the odd good game, these have mostly come against sides who play a 4231 with a not overly mobile or clever player in the No10/false 9 position the opposition look to play through

I know it pains you desperately Steveo, but there are very specific and glaringly obvious reasons our press and counter press became absolutely incredibly, was played to phenomenal levels we never played before or since, in which we didn't even let teams counter us in 4 or 5 games in his absence and restricted 5 or 6 sides to virtually no meaningful possession in our half AND our midfield 3 became fairly fluid all interchanging positions and all that while using Milner, Lallana, Keita and Oxlade at RCM in his absence

Its there mate, that genie was let out of the bottle, the stats for it are there, the results are there, the clean sheets are there, the highlights are there, it is undeniable, we have NEVER played Jurgen's preferred 433 system to those levels with Fab or since that period in his absence and we never will with him at No6 and if we don't move him on and get in players with the necessary skill sets to allow us to do that, we never will again

[CCTV]

Lolzer I'm guessing you are belatedly and long overdue conceding my assertions about Joe in 19-20 were entirely accurate now, you're welcome, people get there in the end, quite a number on today's match thread belatedly and long overdue coming around to Fab being a waste of space

The popular theme being when we have most of the ball, he's nowhere near good enough with it, and as the majority of teams look to attack us almost exclusively down either flank, and he isn't a true DM who plays right across the line, means he's not in the game in the press and counter press, mostly not in the game defensively and not in it with the ball, like playing with 10 men

Yesterday and 19-20 are years apart 19

I'd have gone for a back 3 v Forest. I've gone for Gomez at right back with Nat at CB.
You are keeping him at CB....

You were wrong back then. You're picking him at CB for Ajax

[Nineteenx]

Because he's our fourth choice CB I wanted him sold in the summer & a new CB with thr required attributes & skills who could be Konate's long term future partner brought in as I recall

Our fabled recruitment team (which includes moving players on for decent fees as necessary) at its finest once more 😂

[Nineteenx]

Without Fabinho we don't win number 6 or 19, he was the fulcrum...

We do and you really don't understand what 'the fulcrum' is, I wouldn't ever put being 'the fulcrum' on one player, if ever there was a case for that with Jurgen's Liverpool, it was actually Hendo in 19-20 which was why he won POTY

He was the fulcrum because

He led & drove the team from No6 imperiously

He led drove and orchestrated our press & counter pressing driving it to higher levels than we ever seen before or since Pressing & Counter pressing itself being a fulcrum of our game

He became our accidental playmaker, releasing & connecting the runs of our forwards & full backs His type of passing tailored to their runs & movement to enable further evolution in that aspect of our play also

It also saw an evolution of & also an energy saving feature develop in our midfield, with all 3 midfielders changing through the 3 midfield positions in different passages and periods of play, running less through assuming each other's positions so no running back into position, making for an even better press, being more difficult to set up to play off

Being the fulcrum in the sense of a player being it is being a player that helps every part of the team and team ethos and every player evolve and play to increasingly higher levels

That's exactly what Hendo did in Fab's absence in 19-20 why he won POTY & why we have never reached those levels again since insisting on playing Fab as a feature at No6

He doesn't have the pressing and counter pressing at those levels or the astuteness of most of our players

He doesn't have the passing or type of passing so how the runs & movement were best connected could no longer be as soon as he came back in Atletico being a superb example of this

He's never been the fulcrum and will never be and again, I don't agree with any player being the fulcrum

I think that's where we got our evolution that turned to devolution so badly wrong

I think that unless we integrate Nunez into playing 433 & 4231 & 4222 we could be about to make the same error up front as we did in midfield with Thiago when he tried dominating the ball last season & disrupted all the automation

Nunez as a 9 in a 4231 could become a talisman and fulcrum of sorts in some I don't think all games, but what happens if thrm he's unavailable for a spell? You've fucked yourself up haven't you?

That's why I don't agree with throwing 433 and our pressing and counter pressing game out of the window

You need an ethos, a way of playing, a way of playing that isn't entirely reliant or overly reliant on any one player

We had that, Jurgen developed it, nurtured it and piece by piece added the players that made it flourish

Our strength was always in the system, never the individuals, we had very good players who were consistently greater than the sum of their parts

We became over reliant on Hendo in 19-20 by accident because of the incredible unexpected and unplanned evolution we made with him at No6 in Fab's absence, that happening and it not being recognised & midfield recruitment & thinking not adjusted accordingly has actually caused us problems ever since

Our recruitments going wrong because we've stopped concentrating on the specific attributes players in different positions need to make the system work to its highest levels

We stopped looking within what we already had to improve & develop, hell our manager & staff including recruitment completely missed the incredible evolution we made in Fab's absence & failed to detail & motorise the specifics in astuteness of reading the game & positioning and type of passing required to enable it

There was so much more there to do with Trent & Robbo and the movement and interaction between them & the forwards and working on Robbo's finishing especially which STILL hasn't been done 3 seasons on!

Work to be done on educating all the lads on playing the percentages & the fable analysis team highlighting to them when they could & should be doing that in certain situations

Konate is the only signing in a long time we've indisputably got right, he has all the mental & physical skill sets and attributes we need in that position and still with room to develop

A lot of other signings, we seem to have been attempting the new superstar or player who can be the fulcrum approach instead of simply focusing on whether or not they have the mental & physical attributes and skill sets first & foremost

Midfield, I never wanted or asked for any superstars, my idea was always midfielders with the right mental & physical attributes & skill sets to best compliment & help further develop what we had everywhere else

Put Enzo Fernandez in our midfield he'll be a superstar in the sense he has e writhing we need in a midfielder Put another like him in there with him WOW put him in there with Hendo & Thiago WOW then thr job is to find upgrades on Hendo & Thiago like he is

[Steveo]

Almost all wrong on the fulcrum mate. I realise you don’t see it, however, that doesn’t mean it isn’t the case.

I will say it another way, Fabinho was absolutely instrumental in us winning number 6 and 19… either way round works fine, but that is probably more accurate.

He changed our capability completely.

[Steveo]

Oh and Henderson wasn’t close to POTY in 2020. Not even within our squad. Virgil, Mané, Salah and Trent way way out ahead of him.

Don’t forget this wasn’t the real footballer of the year award. This was the football ‘writers’ award. Totally media based and heavily romanticised. He was a great leader that season but won it because of a few reasons. He was club captain of the Champions and the fact that he is English being the deciding factor. KDB was on another planet to him as a midfielder in 2020, and anyone who wants to debate that will be talking with themselves.

Here are the Liverpool players that made the ESPN FC 100 list... Hendo isn't even on it.

https://rysullivan.medium.com/who-wa...n-769b2d0ca1e3

[IMG][/IMG]

Can't wait to see the return of this guy.

[Nineteenx]

Oh and Henderson wasn’t close to POTY in 2020.

He won it Stevei On merit Get over it He was the fulcrum & driving force Many of our own players came out and said as much

Results after Hendo's injury with Fab at No6 and players we were brilliant with just games before with Hendo at No6 in Fab's absence tell a very different story

We couldn't and can't even be anywhere near our levels then with Gini & Hendo either side of Fab after that The No6 role and the constant immaculate positioning & better distribution from No6 in Fab's absence being crucial, being the fulcrum

People make so many excuses for those results, for the Watdord's, the Villa's the Atletico's & a host of others as they always have and always seemingly will for Fab, the truth is and will always be glaringly obvious for those ready to accept it

You never will, I understand that, that's crystal clear

[Steveo]

Well he did win FWA 'football writers' player of the year. That isn't considered the big one, and certainly does not get the recognition that the PFA (Professional Footballers' Association) gets. That is the one you want to win voted by your professional peers. As mentioned he wasn't even top 3 of our best players that season, let alone the best in the league. KDb on another planet in truth.

The fact is the player you claim we should have moved on (Fabinho) eclipsed him that year despite also not being in our top 3 performers.

English player...Captain of English champions - wins their writers award = Lazy journalism imo. The very type you decry so often and from the very same people you constantly tell us are so wrong.


Hendo had his best season that year no doubt, but it doesn't make him better than Fabinho. Fabinho has been World class Henderson hasn't come close.

[Nineteenx]

Aside from Fab making Hendo look like Modric with the ball

The difference in pressing is so vast because all 3 midfielders being active in the press reading the game & continually positioning themselves expertly off each other & our other players will always make a far superior press than when only 2 are doing that and the other is mostly sat deeper not in the press

I've seen the YouTube you posted of Fab, someone posted it in 2019, it actually illustrates exactly what I'm saying, they are all clips of Fab trying to tackle players HE has let break our press

It only shows the ones he did not the more common occurrence of him not even getting turned & chasing them & often just about jogging into picture as the opposition score

[Insidious]

Because he's our fourth choice CB I wanted him sold in the summer & a new CB with thr required attributes & skills who could be Konate's long term future partner brought in as I recall

Joško Gvardiol is only 20, has a release clause (allegedly!) once Summer comes that would make him cost around £44m and has said in the past he dreams of playing for Liverpool.