Fsg out #2

[CCTV]

Dear Steveo, this is a reply that will form the basis of a new thread dedicated to a bore fest discussion of transfer spending since Summer 2013 to today.
A decade of transfers commencing with Moyes at United and a season of Suarez.. This coming January window to seal it off.

A decade is perfect for me as there are few players who play at a club that long. In terms of player turnover Gomez is longest at the club debut in 14/15.

It's a meandering post in ways.

The last decade of transfer dealings for the top 6 PL clubs

Split in 2 periods. Due to 1st article returned with my search. Mostly discussing our rivals Manu. Spending post fergie.

Summer 2013 - November 2020

Club - Income - Expenditure - Net
Manc - £367.95m -£1232.45m -£864.5m
Manu £335.35m - £1078.07m - £742.72m
Arse - £252.5m -£697.44m - £444.94m
Chel - £739.7m - £1119.65m - £379.95m
LFC - £541.05m - £772.12m - £231.07m
Spur - £447.31m - £615.21m - £167.9m

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/12131750/assessing-man-utds-1bn-spent-since-sir-alex-ferguson-left-in-2013-pitch-to-post-podcast-special

January 20/21 through to the present 23/24 season. Sourced off transfermarkt and converted to £s for sum total
€1=£0.86 later

Club - Income - Expenditure - Net
Manc - €370.47m - €541m - €170.53m
Manu - €114.09m - €609.98m - €495.89m
Arse - €123.1m -€596.24m - €473.14m
Chel - €486.8m - €1197.29m - €710.49m
LFC - €170.95m - €400.65m - €229.7m
Spur €192.49m- £549.9m - €357.41m


Total since 2013/14

Manc - £686.56m -£1697.71m -£1,011.15m
Manu £434.47m - £1602.65m - £1169.19m
Arse - £358.37m -£1210.21m - £851.84m
Chel - £1158.35m - £2149.32m - £990.97m
LFC - £668.07m - £1116.68m - £428.61m
Spur - £612.85m - £1088.12m - £475.27m


In terms of net spend - 2 groups
The 4 bigger net spenders: Manu, City, Cfc & Arse,
and 2 lesser spending clubs in spurs & lfc with half to a third of their net spend.

Similar with gross - 2 groups.
Big spenders CFC.... & Mancs
3 lesser spending arsenal, lfc & spurs.

For roughly the same amount of purchases over the decade as lfc & spurs, its cost Arsenal an extra 400 mill in cash.
That's bad for them

Chelsea lead gross spending by half a billion for the decade from both mancs. Roughly double arsenal, spurs & liverpool.
With less net spend than both Manc clubs. Chelsea a player trading club.

This timeline split above, kind of shows Pep at city over the last 3 years and a low net spend... lowest of the top 6.

It also shows a last 7 years of Roman v 3 say of Toddy.

Over the last 3 years it cost Toddies Chelsea about £600m mill to purchase £1bill of players.
In the preceeding 7 seasons essentially under Roman, it cost Chelsea £380m to sign £1.1bill of players.
Under my analysis Roman > Toddy by the books.

Comparing LFC for the decade v CFC under Roman for 7 years on net spend... your go to shining light of an owner.

LFC - £668.07m - £1116.68m - £428.61m
Chel - £739.7m - £1119.65m - £379.95m

Per season
LFC - £66.8m - £111.6m - £42.8m
Chel - £105.6m- £160m - £54.3 m

In terms of ratio there's some symmetry with our operations over a decade with theirs under roman.
Of course inflation has risen due to its sources....

I'll return later to the PL top 6.
An examination of the market value of players bought and sold.
This will assess the spends further - comparing the valuation of the player at the time via transfermarkt and the fee paid or received.

For example, one time, back in 16/17....

Chelsea
Expenditure - 132.8m
Market Value of players purchased 186.3m
Good bang for bucks. Getting 1.4 times the fees

Income - 108.9m
Market Value of players sold 226.25m
50% off market value on sales.

So for the Net spend of 23.9m cash, Chelsea managed to decrease their squads overall Market Value by 40 mill.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/chelsea-fc/transfers/verein/631/plus/?saison_id=2016&pos=&detailpos=&w_s=

LFC - Same year
Expenditure - 79.9m
Market Value of players purchased 141.25m
Good bang for bucks. Getting 1.42 times the fees in value - same as chelsea essentially

Income - 85.38m
Market Value of players sold 119.75m
30% off on sales.
Markedly better than Chelsea.

So for the Net profit of 5.48m, Liverpool managed to increase their squads Market Value by 21.5 mill.
Via transfers LFC were paid 5.48m to increase the value of its squad.

We added Mane, Gini & Matip in Klopps 1st summer building organically. Turning a profit after years of Net spending under BR.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/liverpool-fc/transfers/verein/31/plus/?saison_id=2016&pos=&detailpos=&w_s=

Now I will just add the seasons up over the decade for each club as above. And give you the results. Spend v MV & Income v MV.

Fundamentally if we bought and sold more players, we'd have a higher turnover & gross spend, we wouldn't need to invest more. See Chelsea v other top net spenders on gross. Chelsea bought 1 billion more of players for roughly the same cost as Arsenal.
We'd be at greater risk of losing cash/value via player sales, as is the trend.
More recently we've lost a lot of talent for nowt, that could have been sold for something to reinvest.

That's a run down of the figures since 2013/14.

The discussion with Steveo dried up in a thread where thus was discussed.

[Steveo]

OK Victor, if you want to debate this properly and in good faith (you don't), there'a a minimum amount of work you need to do to back up your argument.

Take Man City out of the equation for now. What you need to do is analyse the spending of every other team in the league, or just our main competitiors if you want, and show the causation between their owners spending more leading to the club winning more. That way, you can put forward a case that if only FSG had spent some more we might have won more.

Without that, it's just a feeling in your water that we're arguing against and I have better things to do with my time.

At least you seem to agree, I am the Victor:

as we would surely have been more often had Klopp been afforded more than "paying bills" and a net profit in summer 2019. We would surely have been the Victors more often and less likely to suffer the disaster of title defence - and would surely have managed to be more Victorious in pursuit of the quad had the preceding summer not looked like this:

Players IN:

Ibrahima Konate (£36m, RB Leipzig)

Players OUT:

Georginio Wijnaldum (free, Paris Saint-Germain)
Adam Lewis (loan, Livingston)
Sepp van den Berg (loan, Preston North End)
Paul Glatzel (loan, Tranmere Rovers)
Liam Coyle (free, Accrington Stanley)
Joe Hardy (free, Accrington Stanley)
Marko Grujic (£10.5m, Porto)
Taiwo Awoniyi (£6.75m, Union Berlin)
Harry Wilson (£12.6m, Fulham)
Ben Davies (loan, Sheffield United)
Leighton Clarkson (loan, Blackburn Rovers)
Xherdan Shaqiri (£5.4m, Lyon)
Ben Woodburn (loan, Hearts)
Rhys Williams (loan, Swansea City)
Luis Longstaff (loan, Queens Park Rangers)
Jake Cain (loan, Newport County)
Sheyi Ojo (loan, Millwall)

Liverpool total spent to date: £36m
Liverpool total received to date: £35.25m

Liverpool net transfer balance: -£850k


and would certainly have been more Victorious last term had the summer after the almost quad been a little more explosive than this:

Players IN:

Darwin Nunez – Benfica – £85m
Fabio Carvalho – Fulham – £7.7m
Calvin Ramsay – Aberdeen – £6.5m
Arthur Juventus – Loan
Cody Gakpo – PSV – £37m

Spent: £136.2m

Players OUT:

Sadio Mane – Bayern Munich – £35.1m
Neco Williams – Nottingham Forest – £17m
Takumi Minamino – Monaco – £15.5m
Ben Davies – Rangers – £4m
Divock Origi – AC Milan – Free
Tom Clayton – Swindon – N/A
Jake Cain – Swindon – N/A

Received: £71.6m


Liverpool net transfer balance: £65m


But who is to say? Some seem to be saying it's a bonus and a good thing... that despite record profits the best manager on the planet is best served with less at his disposal. It's a strange concept in the extreme.

[CCTV]

I analysed JWHs spend v Romans after being told I couldn't compare us with real, and Steveo kept pointing to Roman as his desired owner.

Apparently the most decorated club in European football cannot be compared with the 3rd most decorated.

2 clubs in the PL top6 have never won a CL title.

[Steveo]

That's a run down of the figures since 2013/14.

The discussion with Steveo dried up in a thread where thus was discussed.

Yea I went abroad and didn't want to waste time stating the bleeding obvious to people who cannot see what is staring them in the face.

[Steveo]

I analysed JWHs spend v Romans after being told I couldn't compare us with real, and Steveo kept pointing to Roman as his desired owner.

Apparently the most decorated club in European football cannot be compared with the 3rd most decorated.

2 clubs in the PL top6 have never won a CL title.

How can you compare Liverpool FC's net spend against it's premier league rivals and bring in Real Madrid?

I mean.. CCTV.. please mate.. Have a deep think about it..

And as for Chelsea - who had 1 title to their name across their entire history - and who became order of magnitude more successful than us and most tbf - who are arguably the most successful Premier League club in the 21st century.. All on Roman's watch and who have fallen off a cliff since he was forced out.. And you wanted to suggest that Roman was a problem and FSG better...


Good grief..


Some of you cannot accept that Klopp has performed miracles.

[CCTV]

At least you seem to agree, I am the Victor:

as we would surely have been more often had Klopp been afforded more than "paying bills" and a net profit in summer 2019. We would surely have been the Victors more often and less likely to suffer the disaster of title defence - and would surely have managed to be more Victorious in pursuit of the quad had the preceding summer not looked like this:

Players IN:

Ibrahima Konate (£36m, RB Leipzig)

Players OUT:

Georginio Wijnaldum (free, Paris Saint-Germain)
Adam Lewis (loan, Livingston)
Sepp van den Berg (loan, Preston North End)
Paul Glatzel (loan, Tranmere Rovers)
Liam Coyle (free, Accrington Stanley)
Joe Hardy (free, Accrington Stanley)
Marko Grujic (£10.5m, Porto)
Taiwo Awoniyi (£6.75m, Union Berlin)
Harry Wilson (£12.6m, Fulham)
Ben Davies (loan, Sheffield United)
Leighton Clarkson (loan, Blackburn Rovers)
Xherdan Shaqiri (£5.4m, Lyon)
Ben Woodburn (loan, Hearts)
Rhys Williams (loan, Swansea City)
Luis Longstaff (loan, Queens Park Rangers)
Jake Cain (loan, Newport County)
Sheyi Ojo (loan, Millwall)

Liverpool total spent to date: £36m
Liverpool total received to date: £35.25m

Liverpool net transfer balance: -£850k


and would certainly have been more Victorious last term had the summer after the almost quad been a little more explosive than this:

Players IN:

Darwin Nunez – Benfica – £85m
Fabio Carvalho – Fulham – £7.7m
Calvin Ramsay – Aberdeen – £6.5m
Arthur Juventus – Loan
Cody Gakpo – PSV – £37m

Spent: £136.2m

Players OUT:

Sadio Mane – Bayern Munich – £35.1m
Neco Williams – Nottingham Forest – £17m
Takumi Minamino – Monaco – £15.5m
Ben Davies – Rangers – £4m
Divock Origi – AC Milan – Free
Tom Clayton – Swindon – N/A
Jake Cain – Swindon – N/A

Received: £71.6m


Liverpool net transfer balance: £65m


But who is to say? Some seem to be saying it's a bonus and a good thing... that despite record profits the best manager on the planet is best served with less at his disposal. It's a strange concept in the extreme.

The squad he had for the Quadruple was surely class, played every game that season.

The loss of the big 2 trophies cma down to 1 off games v city & real. We lost both and arguably we were not best set to beat either team on the day.

Last summer, started with Klopp glowing about his Midfield bodies.
I argued keita and ox should be sold, with subsidised wages if needed, or have their contracts ended and them out of our squad. The relief their contracts were not renewed was immense.
Klopp got caught rotten last year, after the summer he failed to address issues, then at the very end of the season he changed setup and we nearly made top4.

The idea Klopp can't be faulted is bizarre.

It's also bizarre to suggest our owners signed klopp up and then shafted him for investment compared with br.

Klopp turned up said he'd do it his way, and our net spend reduced. Posted a net profit in his first full season here.

Klopp has taken us to the titles we've won, nearly won a load more,
and apparently all we need is to rip up the blueprint that only real Madrid outperform us on, the blueprint klopp believes in himself.

17 points ahead of Chelsea after 20 games,
Is there any wavering in your position that the top4 race between lfc and Chelsea is still active.

54 points to play for both clubs now.

[justincredible]

OK Victor, if you want to debate this properly and in good faith (you don't), there'a a minimum amount of work you need to do to back up your argument.

Take Man City out of the equation for now. What you need to do is analyse the spending of every other team in the league, or just our main competitiors if you want, and show the causation between their owners spending more leading to the club winning more. That way, you can put forward a case that if only FSG had spent some more we might have won more.

Without that, it's just a feeling in your water that we're arguing against and I have better things to do with my time.

Well hello there Mr. Purvis...

[jr81]

Unless we're shifting either Robbo or Tsimi on in the summer it doesn't make sense to bring in another senior left back.

Makes more sense to bring in Matip's replacement now (if available/possible) and get him bedded in for half a season.

Agreed. I wouldnt be looking at a left full either with gomez able to deputise. But I think with him coming back, he will prob play the cup games to give gomez a rest, or if gomez needs to go into cb.

Yes - I would try a cb now also.

[CCTV]

How can you compare Liverpool FC's net spend against it's premier league rivals and bring in Real Madrid?

I mean.. CCTV.. please mate.. Have a deep think about it..

And as for Chelsea - who had 1 title to their name across their entire history - and who became order of magnitude more successful than us and most tbf - who are arguably the most successful Premier League club in the 21st century.. All on Roman's watch and who have fallen off a cliff since he was forced out.. And you wanted to suggest that Roman was a problem and FSG better...


Good grief..


Some of you cannot accept that Klopp has performed miracles.

You can look at Barca v Real and examine those 2 on the same metrics over the last decade.
We are No3 for CL titles v Real are no1 for CL titles.
Do you want the biggest club in the land to only compare themselves with lesser domestic clubs ?

I've shown you the Net spend per season between Roman & JWH since 2013/14 through to today. There little between them on net spend.

Why were you pestering me during the summer in almost disbelief as to whether we would finish above Chelsea in the top 4 race....
If Todd has ruined Chelsea.

We've outperformed them over the last few years of Roman, why did you think Chelsea would finish above us under Todd if he's taking Chelsea off a cliff ?

You seem to acknowledge Roman as bringing success to Chelsea where they had little.
You seem to hate success at LFC as it points to good owners.
Would you actually be happy if cities cheated titles were redistributed.

Klopps great, LFC has made him greater.

[Steveo]

So the squad that missed out on the quad suddenly had an old over the hill midfield did it. In one summer? No vision…

For me it was more evidence of a Lack of available funds. Think back to the summer before… and we bought nobody but a France under 21 CB…a year after letting Senior CB Lovren go without a replacement.

These things have cost in the bust seasons and limited our potential in the winning seasons.

The recruitment has been good - the coaching and management. has been excellent BUT even with a giant like Jürgen - you always risk missing out and boom/ bust when you focus on the bottom line more than taking the risk. Back him fully and I am sure you know - we are 20 or 21 and 7. That’s all - nobody asking for Romans levels or Mansours levels - just not to pinch at every turn. Only time we ever went big - with Klopp - post Coutinho sale - look what happened.