The demise of Football Club Barcelona

[Insidious]

And if we win half of what Bayern or Barca have ( with their daft fan ownership model ) in the last 10 years in the next 10 - we will be laughing.

Somehow I doubt those nicely balanced books will make that a reality.

They've both got excellent trophy hauls of late, but it's difficult to compare. Bayern have infinitely better income/infrastructure than the other sides in their League, to the point where it's almost like comparing Celtic/Rangers to the other SPL sides.

Barcelona meanwhile have had (arguably) the best to ever do it on their books in recent years, having won one(?) European Cup prior to the 05/06 win over Arsenal if I recall correctly.

Bayern will be "up there" for the next 10-20 years unless something drastically changes. Barcelona on the other hand could go either way - they need very, very intelligent recruitment if they are to stabilise and not have a bit of a collapse, though we see the "bouncebackability" of club sides regularly in Football - ourselves being a good example, Man United are well improved after a few difficult years and AC Milan are finally getting somewhere, so to be fair there's no reason Barcelona can't, though moving Messi etc on would do them good long-term.

[teesred]

Pedri and busquets anyway. If we were looking at releiving the debt they now
appear to be suffering from there’s several players that would improve us. Griezman would improve is immeasurably imho. But still fuck em.

Still think they’ll dominate Spain in the immediate future.

I liked Greizzeman at one point but he hasn't had the firm for Barca that he had at Atletico.
Theres not really much to be uop against so I guess they're fairly safe on the home front. R3al are in just as bad a state and Atletico might lose players. I'd like to see Atletico have a spell over the other 2 horrors of La Liga. Be a nice change.

[Taksin]

I don not see how anyone can say with any accuracy at all that Barca’s debt is down to fan ownership.

.

Not sure how you can say it isn’t.

Their ownership has got them into a massive pickle.

Their ownership is a fans owned model.

There are two arguments against the claim.

1) they aren’t in a pickle

2) the ownership isn’t responsible for the pickle.

You haven’t made either argument but, if you were to make the argument, I can’t see it being a strong one

[Steveo]

You don’t have to be sure that I have because I haven’t.

Even in the divorced sentence you have re posted I suggest it is difficult for anyone to say with any accuracy that this latest clusterfuck by Barca is due to fan ownership.

If they did they would also have to negate the fact that fan ownership was in place for one of the greatest club sides ever witnessed winning record numbers of trophies.

[Steveo]

The reality is that since selling Neymar (whoever sanctioned that deal in that guise should be shot Ahem Bartomeu) Barca have completely lost the plot on almost all signings since.

Certainly many Barca fans would point the finger at Bartomeu…

[Taksin]

Even in the divorced sentence you have re posted I suggest it is difficult for anyone to say with any accuracy that this latest clusterfuck by Barca is due to fan ownership.

You seem to defend your most closely held tenets of footballing truth by these obfuscating means. I mean, if you were being critical of our owners, the same defence would be 'its difficult for anyone to say this latest starvation of the transfer fund is the result of .......... - insert as desired; FSG, the the American ownership model, exploitative capitalism'. You wouldn't stand for that.

At some point, the ownership model has an effect. (unless you don't think it does)

The effects at Barcelona are disatrous for their future prospects. The ownership model is fan ownership.

Nowhere did anyone say the behaviour and resulting situation at Barcelona applies to all fan owned clubs in all places. What I said was 'it's interesting that this is the result of the fans based model'. I don't know if that is your preferred model for LFC, but if it is, it is interesting that his kind of outcome is still possible under those circumstances isn't it?

[Taksin]

The reality is that since selling Neymar (whoever sanctioned that deal in that guise should be shot Ahem Bartomeu) Barca have completely lost the plot on almost all signings since.

From what I recall, he was agitating heavily for the move himself. He became a problem as a result. Selling him was understandable in the end.

Also, they could seriously do with £250 million euros at this point in time. Their reinvestment of the money was, in retrospect, the unwise thing, having caused even more financial problems for them.

I wonder if, with a more sober and detached ownership, the same impulse to spend big would have been restrained, perhaps securing the future of the club.

[teesred]

From what I recall, he was agitating heavily for the move himself. He became a problem as a result. Selling him was understandable in the end.

Also, they could seriously do with £250 million euros at this point in time. Their reinvestment of the money was, in retrospect, the unwise thing, having caused even more financial problems for them.

I wonder if, with a more sober and detached ownership, the same impulse to spend big would have been restrained, perhaps securing the future of the club.

Over the last 3 years of things going wrong for then what would have been different if it wasn't a fan ownership model?
Its surely been the recruitment that's lead to the situation not the type of business model. The players they have bought and sold wouldn't have been any different.
I've not read or seen any news articles that suggest their fan ownership status has been the reason for their current financial mess, have you?

[Taksin]

Over the last 3 years of things going wrong for then what would have been different if it wasn't a fan ownership model?
Its surely been the recruitment that's lead to the situation not the type of business model. The players they have bought and sold wouldn't have been any different.

The fact is they are fan owned. Their ownership has got them into this mess.

The reason I made this comment is that, in the confusing world of football club ownership, it is not uncommon for fans to believe that the only true and fair way to run a club would be with such a model. I disagree with that belief, but it is none the less a common belief.

Like all partial solutions to difficult economic and social problems, it can be found out. I'd say Barcelona prove that fan ownership guarantees nothing, if long term sustained success is your desire for your club.

I don't have to say why I think it has gone so wrong and I don't claim to know why. I'm sure its for many reasons. But I did pose a question about whether there was pressure from the fans to make sure their CEO was spending plenty. You will notice from these boards that fans tend to think that is the single most important solution to the club's problems with achieving success. I wonder if that pressure was a factor in Barcelona overspending.

I believe their player wages alone account for 110% of their income. That is obviously a foolish position to get into. I also suggested that a cool headed businessman or team (even, cough, splutter.... spit, American ones) would be better at resisting the temptation to give the fans what they are calling for. But that is, of course, speculation and would not necessarily be true in all situations.

I would have thought it was an interesting topic of consideration, though.

One other thing. Net spend tends to be the argument for how well the club is investing but Barcelona are showing that wages are the more telling aspect of accounts. At the moment they have overspent on wages in an unsustainable way. they are trying to offload players based on their wages, not their market value. Although the 1 billion in debt obviously calls for some very important revenue acquisition from somewhere.

So I joked about 'imagine if we overspent by 1 million quid on players', but reality is we couldn't do that as, say, ten extra players at £100 million each would have astronomical wages that would mean immediate bankruptcy. Probably 10 extra players at £50 million each would also lead to bankruptcy for the same reasons so balancing the books is much more complicated than mere net spend.

[Steveo]

You seem to defend your most closely held tenets of footballing truth by these obfuscating means. I mean, if you were being critical of our owners, the same defence would be 'its difficult for anyone to say this latest starvation of the transfer fund is the result of .......... - insert as desired; FSG, the the American ownership model, exploitative capitalism'. You wouldn't stand for that.

At some point, the ownership model has an effect. (unless you don't think it does)

The effects at Barcelona are disatrous for their future prospects. The ownership model is fan ownership.

Nowhere did anyone say the behaviour and resulting situation at Barcelona applies to all fan owned clubs in all places. What I said was 'it's interesting that this is the result of the fans based model'. I don't know if that is your preferred model for LFC, but if it is, it is interesting that his kind of outcome is still possible under those circumstances isn't it?

I am telling it as it is unlike those who would try to paint black as white to suit an agenda.

You are on record multiple times for saying that the ownership model is overwhelmingly responsible for club success. Fine..

You could even point to Barcelona winning so much over the last 15 years - crediting the owners (in this case fan ownership) model at play.

Then problem then becomes HOW is such a model suddenly responsible for the last 3 seasons failures in the transfer market?

If you are to be taken seriously as a masterdebator - I believe you need to bridge these two opposing realities.

I have to say - the things you find interesting I find utterly mundane - borefest material...