Liverpool transfers in/out and rumours 22/23 + Contracts

[Taksin]

It's possible, but undeniably incredibly tricky and there are variables in either direction so measuring any success (or lack of) would need to be weighed up against that.

We could for example get "the next" great Manager in and they could join at a time where -

- Pep has left Man City
- Klopp has left behind an incredible squad
- we have kept our back-room staff, Lijnders etc
- The other clubs around us happen to be in transition

- and as a result of the above, we end up winning two League titles on the bounce (I know, I know.....)...now that achievement would be incredible, but we are SO unlikely to say that the Manager was "better" than Klopp for example - we'd point to the fortuitous circumstances around it.

That works both ways though - we could simply make a poor managerial choice and people would say "ah, see, the whole set-up is rubbish" when the reality is simply that we've chosen Hodgson MK II. When Klopp departs though the club will be a very appealing prospect so we have a good chance of attracting a really good Manager. Or indeed a new Manager could join at a time when Man United and Arsenal have been bought by Oil States and we are simply outgunned in the transfer market.

I'd say in general terms there's more chance of some drop-off as Klopp purely because Klopp is so good, but I don't think we are going to sink down the Table massively. Maybe finish 3rd/4th rather than second - that sort of thing. I'd love Pep Lijnders to be given the job as he does a lot of our tactical stuff and the squad would already know him, plus he is "Mr Positive" - I'll try to find an old article that was written about that and how Klopp loves what he brings.

Notice how one of the main things that worries you about our continuity after Klopp’s departure is who owns the other rival clubs. So it’s their club governance, not their managers, that will count towards their success in your eyes.

You have also factored in Guardiola, which is a nod to his influence as manager. And yet people on here don’t seem to rate him that highly as a manager - they put their success down to unfair resources mainly.

[CCTV]

The point about the back-room staff was prefaced with this in literally the same post -

"Klopp is undoubtedly the largest factor in our success" - I can praise the work of the backroom staff without it taking anything away from Jürgen's undeniable brilliance.

I don't think Brandt and Gotze would have been shite, however I do think that the business we conducted in the end was better than what might have been. I cannot prove it if course, nor can it be disproven - it's much like those "who would win" chats in Boxing when comparing eras. The fact that we have backroom staff to help identify good fits in terms of Data Analytics and the fact that Klopp is willing to listen to them and take their feedback on board is great and worthy of praise. I feel that at times the backroom staff get overlooked so I'll periodically big them up to compensate for the general attitude towards them - that's no critique of Klopp. Data Analysts, medical staff, scouts, physios, throw-in coaches - little percentages do stack, I firmly believe that. Praising them does not detract from Jürgen's unadulterated brilliance.

I'd majorly write off the praise given to backroom staff.
I'd put most of Klopps praise and anecdotes down to fostering a positive team environment.

As said he's lost the brain, Zorc and Edwards and carried on. Since then Pep Lindjers has become the new man behind Klopps success, along with Ragnick in the media

[ianlfc]

Notice how one of the main things that worries you about our continuity after Klopp’s departure is who owns the other rival clubs. So it’s their club governance, not their managers, that will count towards their success in your eyes.

You have also factored in Guardiola, which is a nod to his influence as manager. And yet people on here don’t seem to rate him that highly as a manager - they put their success down to unfair resources mainly.

Let's all be honest, Citys money and Pep is a match made in heaven. They've both paired up well.

[Insidious]

Notice how one of the main things that worries you about our continuity after Klopp’s departure is who owns the other rival clubs. So it’s their club governance, not their managers, that will count towards their success in your eyes.

You have also factored in Guardiola, which is a nod to his influence as manager. And yet people on here don’t seem to rate him that highly as a manager - they put their success down to unfair resources mainly.

It's not that the ownership of other clubs concerns me. It's just relevant to the question asked. Circumstances are something that always have to be factored in, so I presented a hypothetical. Take Rodgers - we almost won a League title under his stewardship but very few in here would rank him as highly as Benitez say, as we all can see some of the circumstances around that season - Suarez's insane form, time to prepare between games, Sturridge being available a lot etc - I do believe we CAN be successful post-Klopp, but that will undeniably depend on lots of factors so I am hesitant to say we WILL as we could end up hiring someone who is the wrong fit.

As to Pep, I don't think anyone seriously thinks he is a crap Manager - but people will provide context (rightly so) of him always having incredibly potent squads at his disposal and/or his capacity to spend massive amounts of money on players without worrying about balancing the books. They can sign a flop and say "ah well, didn't work" and drop another £35m+ on a replacement in almost every single position if they want due to how investigations have/haven't panned out. He is an excellent Manager who has cheat codes, whereas we are operating without financial steroids. Folks can and should provide that context to Pep's trophy haul as he has won more than he would if he had been Arsenal/Spurs Manager let's say, versus Klopp winning less than he could as he had Dortmund v Bayern and Liverpool v Man City.

[Insidious]

I'd majorly write off the praise given to backroom staff.
I'd put most of Klopps praise and anecdotes down to fostering a positive team environment.

As said he's lost the brain, Zorc and Edwards and carried on. Since then Pep Lindjers has become the new man behind Klopps success, along with Ragnick in the media

Nobody's saying Lijnders is the man behind Klopp's success - as I said in my own post Klopp is the main factor - I just personally wouldn't "write off" the back-room staff. Everyone plays a part. Jürgen's thankfully so damn good he could probably work with almost anyone and that's to be commended, but it isn't as if Lijnders and the Data Analysts are playing Solitaire all day either.

[Taksin]

I do believe we CAN be successful post-Klopp, but that will undeniably depend on lots of factors so I am hesitant to say we WILL as we could end up hiring someone who is the wrong fit.

That’s what I asked though. I think you conceded too much in your debate with CCTV as a result of your natural politeness (when it comes to writing off the work that the team is doing behind Klopp). I agree with your earlier comments.

Naturally what other teams are doing has some bearing on our success, but if you can imagine us doing as well with a different manager, then it might just be that Klopp isn’t the sole reason for our current success.

One of the hallmarks of our previous greatness was the continuity. Fagin and even Kenny were good fits for the club at that time but they can hardly be credited with being the sole architects of our success.

[Taksin]

Let's all be honest, Citys money and Pep is a match made in heaven. They've both paired up well.

Yes it has been a recipe for success (domestically)

[CCTV]

Nobody's saying Lijnders is the man behind Klopp's success - as I said in my own post Klopp is the main factor - I just personally wouldn't "write off" the back-room staff. Everyone plays a part. Jürgen's thankfully so damn good he could probably work with almost anyone and that's to be commended, but it isn't as if Lijnders and the Data Analysts are playing Solitaire all day either.

You've said on the previous page about keeping Klopps backroom staff here after Klopp leaves, which seems odd as new coaches tend to want to bring in many of their own staff with them.

And beforehand on the forum and again in this thread youve talked about Pep Lijnders becoming the next manager of LFC.

I'd say you have a very high opinion of Pep based on these posts of yours. If he became the next manager who knows how it would pan out. I'd consider it a high risk and poor choice for our next manager.

[CCTV]

That’s what I asked though. I think you conceded too much in your debate with CCTV as a result of your natural politeness (when it comes to writing off the work that the team is doing behind Klopp). I agree with your earlier comments.

Naturally what other teams are doing has some bearing on our success, but if you can imagine us doing as well with a different manager, then it might just be that Klopp isn’t the sole reason for our current success.

One of the hallmarks of our previous greatness was the continuity. Fagin and even Kenny were good fits for the club at that time but they can hardly be credited with being the sole architects of our success.

Prior to Klopp the club underperformed routinely against its net spend as a predictor variable.
Since Klopps arrived the club is overperforming against net spend as a predictor variable.

He's reduced the clubs annual net spend in a market where inflation grows steadily, and massively improved the clubs return on the field.

Seems to me you have this general argument with Steveo about the dynamics behind a clubs success.
Typically arguing for the owners importance, whereas in this thread you posited the good players as the secret the lfc bootroom decided to share with the wider public and rivals.

However in this particular case, I'd say much of the notional arguments around dynamics can be discarded

[Taksin]

Prior to Klopp the club underperformed routinely against its net spend as a predictor variable.
Since Klopps arrived the club is overperforming against net spend as a predictor variable.

He's reduced the clubs annual net spend in a market where inflation grows steadily, and massively improved the clubs return on the field.

Seems to me you have this general argument with Steveo about the dynamics behind a clubs success.
Typically arguing for the owners importance, whereas in this thread you posited the good players as the secret the lfc bootroom decided to share with the wider public and rivals.

However in this particular case, I'd say much of the notional arguments around dynamics can be discarded

The club underperformed for thirty years and has steadily looked like a club that means business, and has steadily been getting its act together, since FSG have arrived. They’ve had a steep learning curve - it didn’t just all happen at once - but then that could be said of Klopp too.

The boot room believed that good players were the secret to success, not me. I believe you need all three - good players, a good manager, and most importantly, good governance.

Seeing as good governance generally leads to good players and a good manager, it’s easy to see why people get hung up on the good manager, who is undoubtedly important and a key to success.

I don’t object to people settling on this explanation but, if you wish to assert that ‘it’s all down to Klopp, then I wish to object. If you further wish to assert that we are a badly run club, I think it’s worth pointing out that you have left your senses.