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Squad N0 1
We are constantly either weakening the midfield or attack to shoe horn him in, it’s a ridiculous situation and one which has contributed in no small part to us being far easier to play through.
Master Tactician
Teams have been setting up in a 4231 for the best part of 25 years.
How many of these teams dont play with 2 holding mifldfielders.
Think Rafa with Masch and Xabi in behind Gerrard or Chelsea's Makalele and Essien sat behind Lampard.
What we're doing is asking Makalele or Masch to get forward whenever possible. It's lunacy.
Wirtz's performances/ability is up for debate but let's at least see what he can do in properly set up system.
First Team
Agree wholeheartedly.Originally Posted by jozza800
We are currently lacking pace in the wide areas so Wirtz isn't releasing it as quickly and thus tries to force it more often. As a consequence, we lose possession.
When we do lose possession, we've often pushed our midfielders too high and lads like Mac Allister can't recover.
Some is personnel, some tactical.
If we compare to the 08/09 side, I think Slot/Hughes/Edwards will seek to bring another "Alonso" in and I'd be absolutely delighted if we instead brought a "Mascherano" in for balance, tasked with putting out fires and taking the odd tactical yellow.
Pacey wide players in a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1.....or bite the bullet and set up in a system with 2 strikers, whether that's the 4-4-2 Diamond or a 3-5-2.
Any of the 4-4-2 Diamond, the 3-5-2 or the 4-2-3-1 allow Wirtz to be a 10 whilst still having some protection, whilst he could easily play as one of the 8/10s in a 4-3-3, ideally on the left.
- Get him in the 10
- Pace around him so he can play those passes early
- A destroyer to cover for when it does go wrong (which I'd want anyway irrespective of Wirtz's presence in the side)
I think there's the makings of an excellent side here, but we have to absolutely nail our recruitment and I don't think Slot will be the man to do it, much as I would love him to prove me wrong.
Squad N0 1
We have played 4231 with Wirtz in a ten numerous times. His performances were just as anonymous so not surprised you’ve forgotten
First Team
I haven't forgotten.
The right personnel around him within a 4-2-3-1 should make him more effective.
To be fair this can be said of any player, in terms of improving what's around them to lift their individual capacity.
With not having pacey wide players in this side (Gakpo isn't fast, Salah was but no longer is) and without having a "firefighter" to cover for when he is forcing it (due to the lack of pace, meaning it can rarely be played early on an effective counter) I don't think we have much chance of seeing his best.
It's been further compounded by Mac Allister's capacity for recovery basically being gone and us not having settled on our situation at full-back succession.
Today as an example, we bought Kerkez and Frimpong to be flying full-backs and instead we have Robertson and Jones due to the fact that Kerkez isn't "there" yet and Frimpong was deployed as a wide player.
Wirtz, amongst others, represents a decent "ingredient" but the recipe is all over the shop right now.
There's plenty needing fixing and some of those fixes should lift Wirtz and vice-versa.
If I prove to be wrong on that score and we go on to sell him, I'd be disappointed. I'd love to see him in a functioning side.
First Team
they are basically the same system 4/3/3..
We have never done well with a number 10 in the team. Under Klopp we had 3 main midfielders with Bobby also playing deep in a false 9 at times.. not an out and out forward thats for sure.
Last season we had 3 main midfielders in Grav/ Dom/Macca.
Macca and Dom are both number 8s. but one drops in to help out Gravenberch.. Even Szoboszlai dropped in to help the defensive side of the game, we had plenty of legs in midfield.
Now we are expecting Wirzt to play in a 3.. Its never going to work.. teams drop very deep.. we over play and then run at us and we are short in midfield and at the back,. It affects our fullbacks. they can;t really push right on, cause then we'll have even less players, when teams break off from our attacks
Weve always played well, when we've been composed and played as a team and kept the ball.. now we try and get forward to quickly and we are playing at a stupid pace. not control at all..Our midfield is running everywhere. I blame this solely on Slot and his set up.
Cleaning up the Scots since the 13th century
First Team
Stevie in 08/09 was a 10 - but I'll happily concede that we was "more" - absolutely unique specimen of a football player from 04/05 to 08/09.
There's much of this I am inclined to agree with and it's why I want to see a Diamond or 3-5-2 if we are persisting with Wirtz - which I hope we do.
With the Diamond you can get him in AND have three mids behind him -
.....................GK
RB.........CB...........CB........LB
.....................DM
..........CM................CM
....................Wirtz
..............ST..............ST
- and if one of those miss were to be an energetic destroyer, we could set up something like this if Mac Allister departed and Grav was pushed further up (Macca could be kept for depth obviously, it's purely to demonstrate roles) -
................."Masch type"
....Szoboszlai.......Gravenberch
.....................Wirtz
Which I think would provide a better balance.
Equally if we decided to try a 3-5-2 we could potentially get better out of Kerkez and Frimpong whilst utilising Wirtz, having extra centre-back cover as part of our defensive set-up behind Wirtz and the forwards (rather than an extra midfield body) if we profile the right midfielder, loosely -
..............................GK
..............CB.........Virgil......CB
Frimpong.............."Masch"..............Kerkez
..............Szoboszlai............Wirtz
...................Striker..............Striker
Which gets Wirtz into that left half-space (though mids could of course have instructions for rotation under the right Manager) and the extra centre-back (plus correct profile of destructive midfielder) meaning we can utilise Frimpong and Kerkez's pace a bit more for ball progression whilst getting a better risk/reward balance should they bomb forward.
This is actually partly where I'd love us to profile a different right-back "option" for rotation who could theoretically do more traditionally right-back stuff whilst very occasionally filling in at the right centre-back and if Spurs were to go down (they likely won't now, gah!) I'd have happily taken a punt on Porro.
None of that is to say that either of these two set-ups would work perfectly, but I think we would see improvement from multiple players.
First Team
I get that formation. BUT the forwards aka 2 strikers still need to keep the width,It would mean Wirzt was a central attacker.
Its the only place where he would fit in. But he needs more end product to play there, But the likes of Isak are not wide attackers,so its complicated
Cleaning up the Scots since the 13th century
Squad N0 1
It’s not rocket science.
Three solid midfielders and get the ball forward quickly to pacey forwards before the opposition get chance to get into their defensive shape.
We are so far away from that right now. We have no pace up front and our midfield is about as solid as a blancmange
Squad N0 1
You start complicating formations and tactics for players they start over thinking it and you get slow stagnant football falling between two or three stools
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