Fulham v Liverpool (Match Thread)

[RedNoodle]

Read. I said most successful. I said not sole reason. U are using Klopp as a shield to attack FSG. U hang all the success on him but all the failure on them. No one knows where we would have been without Klopp. He us the best Manager I have seen in 30 years. Kenny I was young so dont remember the era so much though I was alive. Rafa was good, Houlier did what he did. I liked Evan and thought Brendan did okay. Is Jurgen the bomb of course. But I will criticize when he messes up.

FSG has given you a league title. Could have been back to back but for City. I that doesn't float your boat it sure does mine.

I never said that you said sole reason. I'm just stating that he is the main (not sole) reason for our current success and that anyone who says otherwise is doing so for the reasons I stated. I'm not using Klopp in any fashion other than how I genuinely see things i.e. that he, not FSG is the main reason why we are having the success we are currently having. If Klopp was in charge with different, but not completely useless owners, I'd expect him to have as big an impact on the players at his disposal as he has under FSG, while if FSG had hired almost any other manager but did everything else the same, I do not think they would be having the success that they/we are currently enjoying.

FSG have played their part in giving us (and more importantly them) a league title. FSG on their own however (which is what your last paragraph effectively states) have not been solely responsible for our recent success. As far as I'm concerned the bulk of the praise should be laid at Klopp's feet, not theirs. If you want to do the reverse, be my guest.

[Nineteenx]

I didn't like Bobby pre Klopp. He came alive once Mane and the original revolution came. He was part if the fab 4 Lama, Couta, Mane himself. We had not yet had the respect of others so we hurt teams on the counter. Bobby was a trick, coming deep and playing mostly 1 or 2 touches mostly back to a passer who would then spring Mane or Sturridge in the earlier days. Or he would swivel and be the passer.
When Salah came teams were still pressing us high and not showing respect so now we had devastating runners and 2 clever Brazilians concorting behind them.

What's missing is Thiago, the Fab four would be back on and include him with his range, variety and disguise of passing, we only have Hendo and Thiago in all our midfielders who can actually pass a ball in ways that best suit the abilities of our other players.

We need to recruit other players with these abilities, it is staggering for me that we only have 2 capable of playing balls of the required standard that compliment our other players abilities and system of play.

I watched the Filthy's recent defeats against PSG and Leipzig in both games both those sides ran them ragged with constant high quality switches, switch out to the flank, back to a player in the centre then switched to the opposite flank, or out to the flank and switched right the way to the other flank.

For PSG every single player in every position played the switches to the very highest quality seamlessly and effortlessly, for Leipzig all the players except their 2 CBs, it's bordering on criminal that we only have Hendo and Thiago in midfield who can, Virgil at CB (we miss his long diagonals as much as his defending) and Trent (not as often as he should) at RB and Robbo very sporadically and occasionally at LB who can

Edit: Re Virgil take todays game for example, Fulham pressed and always had a player pressing Hendo to stop his switches and balls over the top, not a new tactic, but last season, the ball would just go back to Virgil who'd play a precision top quality long diagonal right to Mo's chest to turn the opposition or over the top for Mane or Mo

[HLOGI]

Wow on all the parts highlighted here Crimson Red. Red Noodle has stuck hIS boot in. He has always had a FSG agenda but today he came full force, with no substantiation, but has just exploded all his dislike for the owners. What a wow.

I rest my case on this. FSG have brought the most joy to me as a Liverpool supporter. I have seen them dismantle oligarchs and season upon season made us powerful and relevant again. I rest.

[Crimson Dynasty]

i never said that you said sole reason. I'm just stating that he is the main (not sole) reason for our current success and that anyone who says otherwise is doing so for the reasons i stated. I'm not using klopp in any fashion other than how i genuinely see things i.e. That he, not fsg is the main reason why we are having the success we are currently having. If klopp was in charge with different, but not completely useless owners, i'd expect him to have as big an impact on the players at his disposal as he has under fsg, while if fsg had hired almost any other manager but did everything else the same, i do not think they would be having the success that they/we are currently enjoying.

Fsg have played their part in giving us (and more importantly them) a league title. Fsg on their own however (which is what your last paragraph effectively states) have not been solely responsible for our recent success. As far as i'm concerned the bulk of the praise should be laid at klopp's feet, not theirs. If you want to do the reverse, be my guest.

I mean, you can't have it both ways, mate.

You can't on the one hand argue that all the success we've had in recent seasons has been largely down to Klopp and his managerial abilities, and then when it's pointed out to you, for example that Klopp wouldn't be here if FSG hadn't hired him, you then turn around and argue (as you did a little before), that they only hired him because of his record of doing things on the cheap - which entirely undercuts the notion that he's a good manager, as opposed to just a really cheap option.

Which is it?
Is he a a good manager responsible for our success (in which case, FSG therefore also DO deserve the credit they're due for not only hiring him, but also picking him out prior to that and supporting him after it)?

Or was he just a cheap option who somehow managed to luck himself into some success the past couple of years against the grain of FSG cheapness and reluctance to spend when he needed them to?

These two positions can't live in the same reality, you do know that, right?

Either he's a good manager or he's not (and just a cheap guy who happened to be lucky).
And if he's good, then you're not being very honest in not giving FSG the credit they're due in hiring him and supporting him.

[HLOGI]

What's missing is Thiago, the Fab four would be back on and include him with his range, variety and disguise of passing, we only have Hendo and Thiago in all our midfielders who can actually pass a ball in ways that best suit the abilities of our other players.

We need to recruit other players with these abilities, it is staggering for me that we only have 2 capable of playing balls of the required standard that compliment our other players abilities and system of play.

I watched the Filthy's recent defeats against PSG and Leipzig in both games both those sides ran them ragged with constant high quality switches, switch out to the flank, back to a player in the centre then switched to the opposite flank, or out to the flank and switched right the way to the other flank.

For PSG every single player in every position played the switches to the very highest quality seamlessly and effortlessly, for Leipzig all the players except their 2 CBs, it's bordering on criminal that we only have Hendo and Thiago in midfield who can, Virgil at CB (we miss his long diagonals as much as his defending) and Trent (not as often as he should) at RB and Robbo very sporadically and occasionally at LB who can

19 u love Bobby. Dont like Fabinho. So on that premise I won't engage your insight. I do think from time to time you provide solid footballing talk and tactics but as soon as you use it to show up someone you dont like or you want defend the one you do, you have lost me as a listener.

Not that it matters but I will ignore your football brain until you stop pimping an idea using above.

[HLOGI]

On a side note. Love the thread length and energy going about. As lovely as it has been since those Hodgson days and B-Rod all abroad. Lol. Threads have been biting in these 97/99 points days.

[Nineteenx]

19 u love Bobby. Dont like Fabinho. So on that premise I won't engage your insight. I do think from time to time you provide solid footballing talk and tactics but as soon as you use it to show up someone you dont like or you want defend the one you do, you have lost me as a listener.

Not that it matters but I will ignore your football brain until you stop pimping an idea using above.

That wasn't any kind of dig at Fabinho, all our other midfielders bar Hendo and Thiago are incapable of playing those kind of balls to the required standard, they're not on their own, Bacon face at UAE FC has been attempting them a lot this season and failing miserably at it, but he has quite spectacular ability at other types of passing from other areas that only Thiago of our current midfielders has

[HLOGI]

That wasn't any kind of dig at Fabinho, all our other midfielders bar Hendo and Thiago are incapable of playing those kind of balls to the required standard, they're not on their own, Bacon face at UAE FC has been attempting them a lot this season and failing miserably at it, but he has quite spectacular ability at other types of passing from other areas that only Thiago of our current midfielders has

Agree there is no dig at Fab in your post. That is not the point I am making. I'm say9ng that as it appears you have love of Bobby so would debate every footballing manual to show horn him into the side. Vice versa with Fabinho you will show everything to try and convince that he is not good enough.

So on that your response on my is very analytical I must say but with clear bias towards those 2 arguments. So I dont have a problem whether you love Bobby or any player and dislike others or not. You have your thoughts I respect that. But in terms of a debate or talk on tactics, formation, players etc. I will stand aside as it sometimes appears that your premise is based on bias no matter its eloquence. So I wont engage and talk football with you. I will talk Liverpool with you because that is one of our true lives and that means you are a brother. But the dissection of football etc. I look pass. Think this is the most we have commented on each others post in like 12 months since the time we had a previous spat lol.

[HLOGI]

That wasn't any kind of dig at Fabinho, all our other midfielders bar Hendo and Thiago are incapable of playing those kind of balls to the required standard, they're not on their own, Bacon face at UAE FC has been attempting them a lot this season and failing miserably at it, but he has quite spectacular ability at other types of passing from other areas that only Thiago of our current midfielders has

I see what you mean about the passing range. Switching etc. Football is not just for passers and switchers there us also place Gatuso, Makalele types. Fabinho is those types. He merits his place imo but I understand now finally where you coming from. Think if you played football you would have been an attacker/maverick type. I see the type of players you admire most and the ones you maybe feel could be better. Peace my brother. I like bacon face though. lol.

[RedNoodle]

@Crimson

A sad indictment of Klopp?!?!? You taking what I said in that fashion shows me that you're not interested in taking things as they are obviously meant, but just want to twist things in order to suit your (in my opinion) blinkered/flawed arguments.

FSG hiring somebody else who might have had a reasonable amount of success, but did so on even more of a budget than Klopp did has obviously got sweet FA to do with Klopp's ability, but everything to do with FSG trying to attain success as cheaply as possible, which is why they acquired us in the first place. That is something that is the modus operandi of many/most business people, especially those involved in big business.

The reason they spent the Coutinho money straight away is exactly the same reason Kenny did that with the Torres money, and Rodgers with the Suarez money, because if we had let any of our best players at the time leave and not replaced them, not only would there have been serious issues with our owners and each of those managers, but our fanbase would have also been seriously p***ed off. Given what we've 'spent' under FSG, if you think that FSG would have sanctioned the acquisition of the likes of VVD and Alisson without knowing that Coutinho was on his way, you are seriously naive.

Yes we brought Jota, But again, considering our very low net spend since Klopp arrived, the fact we've not signed a load of players, the fact we're the PL champions, have made record revenue, have signed one of the largest sponsorship deals ever, and are already the fifth richest club in the world (something that makes Covid a fair bit less relevant than if we were say Dagenham and Redbridge), again Klopp/we would have been seriously p***ed off if we had not signed someone to help out our attack, which not only largely consisted of just three players, but wasn't/isn't getting enough assistance from those behind them.

I believe what I say about Klopp not being backed as much as some believe he's been as no half decent/sane manager would want a bench full of sub par, inexperienced/young, aging, or unfit players, especially given the style of football he plays. Anyone who says otherwise is being disingenuous in the extreme. Then on top of that you only have to look at what we've spent and when we've spent it. We've had a few obvious areas that have needed addressing (long before Covid could be used as an excuse) and yet we've still had seasons where we've 'spent' very little, and a few transfer windows where we've spent sweet FA despite having deficiencies. Again if you're telling me this was Klopp's choice you are being extremely/purposely disingenuous.

Why Klopp played the players he did recently is a completely different issue. Why he did that is anyone's guess. He has the occasional brain fart, and it's quite possible that in that instance he just had yet another one.

Nobody has said that our owners aren't first and foremost businesspeople, or that us being successful and FSG doing likewise in terms of their investment is mutually exclusive. All that has been said is that FSG are not 'perfect', have not backed Klopp as much as some like yourself would have others believe, and that if we don't want to unnecessarily risk things going tits up, they should give Klopp the means (without having to raise fund through selling players) in order to address any issues in our first XI, and to beef up our squad, as the way things are looking it could well be the reason for us not defending our title this season and/or going far in the CL, especially as the overall quality on show from virtually everybody at the moment is between poor and very inconsistent.