Florian Wirtz

[Insidious]

"He then got rid of Coutinho and played a midfield of (James) Milner, (Jordan) Henderson, Fabinho or (Gini) Wijnaldum. He had three aggressive, not creative, workers in midfield. They decreased the amount of goals they conceded and scored more."

With a 4-4-2 Diamond you can have Wirtz as a 10 AND have your three "aggressive, not creative" midfielders if you so wish.

If only we had quality strikers for it - oh we do, in Isak and Ekitike - and we're capable of going into the market to bolster that. A "front two" with depth also solves some recruitment issues for us as it means you can probably have 4 (or 5 to be safe) forwards rather than needing 6 of them, with a returning Harvey a natural back-up for Wirtz. That also gets someone off the wage bill to help free up funds for other areas. We could for example invest in another right-back (Porro let's say) which frees up Frimpong to be depth at right-back and at right-wingback (for such games where we go 4-3-3 or 3-5-2) rather than worrying about depth if it's Frimpong and Bradley as your right-backs, given the injury record.

Plus we always having the option of slotting someone like Jones in there as that "10" if you want FOUR of those "aggressive, not creative" midfielder types in key games.

If only we had flying full-backs for the Diamond - oh we do, in Kerkez and Frimpong.

Alternatively to all of the above we could actually get some pressing out of our forward line and not leave the monstrous gap between the front players and the midfield that leaves a diminished Mac Allister having to track back across oceans of space when he can't run properly. We could even consider replacing him, get some more capacity for recovery runs and energy into the midfield via an Anderson, a Wharton or whatever your personal choice may be.

The squad has some imbalance issues but I personally don't have Wirtz as being anywhere near one of our biggest problems.

[Steveo]

I don’t know but perhaps the above is the sort of ‘rationale’ being carried out by the new team led by H’edwards - behind the scenes.

Regardless - it seems clear to me that someone involved is clueless or wilfully dismissive as to what it was that took a “bang average” squad - injected them with belief - got average players to perform at their peak -land quality players to outperform world beaters - and take us to the very top.

I do wonder what level Wirtz would be at if Jurgen was still here. I can guarantee he would look twice the player.

[miller0863]

It really would be interesting to see what Jurgen could get out of him but we haven’t got Jurgen, we are destined to be managed by mere mortals for the rest of eternity

And I have NEVER said that Wirtz is THE problem or the Main problem but he definitely IS a problem. We don’t appear to know where to play him for a start. The midfield is weaker when he starts there and I think we’re pretty much all agreed he’s ineffective on the left, he’s not a false 9 so … I dunno, can we ask the Premier League if we can play with 12?

[Steveo]

I know - I was going to mention that too,

At times it goes from the simple and totally valid claim that ‘player x hasn’t - as yet - shown the consistent levels expected’ to - well he isn’t the biggest problem we have….

Seemingly there is a genuine push from some sections to try and stymie perfectly reasoned debate on the matter and ignore what has consistently been observed - by defending against claims that haven’t been made.

[Insidious]

And I have NEVER said that Wirtz is THE problem or the Main problem but he definitely IS a problem. We don’t appear to know where to play him for a start.

I know miller There's a portion of the online narrative (moreso the Twitterati) where I see Wirtz as being the scapegoat player and I am inclined to take conversations away from that; you could perhaps call me "defensive" on Wirtz and it'd be a fair comment - I know that you personally don't subscribe to a narrative of "Wirtz out, everything fine" - just to assure you that isn't my take on your position.

As to playing him, Wirtz operated very well in the left half-space at Bayer Leverkusen so we should be getting him in there, where we can. I have said in a few threads that an aspect of our recruitment that confused me was the imbalance of our recruitment given what we already had, as we have multiple players who are capable of "standing on each other's toes" as it were, as they all do good work there - Kerkez if he underlaps, Gakpo if he cuts inside, Ekitike prefers the left half-space to the right one, Isak the sake, Mac Allister too if he drives inside to join the attack, Jones too when he plays.

That all seems "off" to me given Salah's presence in the side. A lot of excellent individual players, but the blend is wrong - and if we have committed on Wirtz, we should be set up to leave him the appropriate room to operate, or cutting losses in him - the latter of which I feel would absolutely be the wrong call.

[miller0863]

Not aimed at you Sid, it has been intimated by one or two on here repeatedly, LFC-DPG (I think it is) for one, who follows me around on match days to make moronic comments for example if the keeper makes a mistake or Mo misses a sitter with, “must be Wirtz’s fault”, the sad git.

[ianlfc]

He had a decent first 30 minutes then disappeared like the rest of them.
We could've saved ourselves £130 million by keeping Harvey Elliott, he could've done no worse this season.
Unfortunately for us Wirtz wasn't really needed.

[miller0863]

Said that several times Ian, Harvey never had the run of games Wirtz has had

[justme]

I seem to be always criticising Wirzt., But for the right reasons in my own personal opinion. The likes of Ekitike needs someone quicker behind him.. Hugo is always having to hold the ball..and it slows the play down.. If he had someone with a bit of directness behind him, He'd be able to get the box more.

When we had the likes of Jota (rip) at least he ran at back line and put the opposition under pressure and made defenders come out to press the ball or sit off.
All Wirt does is slow the play with his need to hold and play the ball. You don't get the time.. That's why i'd happily let him go and let Dom be the attacking midfielder. Hes more than likely to get a shot away as well

Until Wirzt shows some physical strength and break the lines and does something spectacular. hes nowhere near the money we paid for him
Hes been nothing but average this season and hes ruined our play (again in my opinion). we need to go back to a proper 3 in midfield and ditch the fancy passing number 10

[jozza800]

I liked Harvey, but he's nowhere near Wirtz's level.

And I'll keep saying this but most didn't think Harvey was up to the level required.

Even if he'd have stayed, Slot wouldnt have used him anyway.

[jozza800]

I do think our finishing is not helping. His numbers would look far healthier had we finished better.

I watched a YouTube clip the other day of the chances he created and there was a lot of them. Gakpo and Mo being chief culprits...

I still think in properly set up and confident team he'll be brilliant.

[justme]

Elliot is another, half and half midfielder.. He can't play in a 3 or can't play wide. so there's no place for him..
Fine coming on in the second half of games when the game is a bit more open.

Wirzt is the same. he can't play left cause we have no natural width and he can't play in a 3., Its never worked for us. going back to the days of Smicer and Garcia.. we can remember games where they did well. Ie Luis Garcia against Chelsea.
But overall their end product wasn't enough..

The solidity of 3 main midfielders. Not only helps the physicality of the team. It helps the defending side of the team as well.
Wirzt will have good games. But overall on win ratio.. He will be more of an issue than a positive (in my opinion)

You simply can't get away with him in the number 10 role., maybe a false 9 role if he ups his end product. But otherwise. we need to get 2 more centre midfielders in the summer

[miller0863]

Thing is jozza, I wouldn’t be starting Wirtz or Elliott, there’s no room for either in a first choice line up imo.

We know what worked and Slot has just torn it up and set us back years. We look terrible and have absolutely no pattern of play whatsoever.

[miller0863]

Very very little to report here again I’m afraid, couple of nice touches around the box is all. His assist was absolutely nothing to do with the goal

[justme]

Dom looks much better off the front man. he can drop and defend as well. We dont need a play maker in the 10 role.