Other Games 21st 22nd October

[Steveo]

For the lads who seemingly don't actualy know


Here's Luis doing nothing much in 23/24

[Steveo]

And here again while he was out injured and we were shyte... from a YouTube clip titled
'This is why Liverpool Miss Luis Diaz in 2023"

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/3VYGrRvXZkA

and this doesn't even touch on what he delivered defensively - winning the ball back and the sheer threat he offered, something only Ekitike is reproducing a bit of at the moment.

The fact is despite arriving into a team with Salah Bobby and MAne and Jota - he was an instant hit.. WHY? because he was dynamite.. he suffered a horrible double injury yet still in his relatively short time here he was hugely influential and important to the the team.. He hasn't been replaced.

The end.

[CCTV]

Luis Diaz is now 7 goals and 4 assists in 12 games at his new club.

Unlike Cody - who is decent but nothing more - he isn’t mainly popping up on the end of a move crafted by others to tap home. He is defending from the front - winning the ball back - driving at teams and causing them to fracture, This is before we look at the numbers. Harry Kane thinks it’s Christmas and he’s been left alone in the house with the Turkey.

Great win last night and we looked much better … but we are massively missing this fella.

Bayern fans believe they have signed the best in Europe btw

You started out with Goals and assists...

Diaz unlike Cody.... your claim.

You've then been told that Gakpo has outperformed Diaz for goals & assists at LFC over their respective careers at LFC,
Last season in our title winning side...
And in the PL exclusively Gakpo has outperformed Diaz.

Now after pointing to goals and assists as the metric of Diaz, unlike Cody...
And having been shown that Gakpo has outperformed Diaz for Goals & Assists...

I can see why your big mad

And yes, forever.

[Steveo]

Mate, seriously? You’re still clinging to that Goals and Assists report? It’s genuinely hilarious. You've convinced yourself that Cody Gakpo....the master of the perfectly placed tap-in - is a better footballer because he’s got a few more receipts in the final third. You are confusing a tidy finisher with a World-Class Force of Nature, and the sheer weight of reality is crushing your argument.

The debate isn't about who cleaned up more easy chances; it's about who makes Liverpool win. Let's look at the only metric that truly reflects a player's fundamental value: the Team Win Percentage. The difference is brutal: Luis Díaz has a higher overall win rate than Gakpo in the league, despite the universe actively trying to stop him.

And here is the context that absolutely destroys your point: Díaz achieved that higher win percentage while battling through the most unimaginable adversity. Gakpo has enjoyed relative stability and consistency since he arrived. Díaz, on the other hand, had his career derailed by two separate, horrific knee injuries that stole an entire season from him, shattering his momentum. But even more gut-wrenching, he had to play football—and scored a crucial equalizer against Luton, by the way...while his father was held captive by kidnappers.

When you weigh all that up - the double injury, the mental trauma, the sheer pressure - and Luis Díaz still has a superior influence on the final result, what does that tell you? It tells you that his raw pace, his relentless press, and his ability to turn a game single-handedly are assets Gakpo simply doesn't possess. Gakpo is a beneficiary of the system; Díaz is the ignition switch. He's the player who frightens defenders, dictates the tempo, and embodies the fighting spirit of the club. You can keep your spreadsheet, mate. I'll stick with the player whose mere presence means we win more often, no matter what personal hell he's fighting through. Díaz is simply built different.

Forever.

[Kev0909]

Stevo mate, you're wasting your breathe

He said gakpo had a better season than salah last season, remember.

He's obviously got a thing for him, it's a bit weird at this point

I think he's just trolling

[Kev0909]

When under the cosh, particularly away from home, Diaz was a great out ball, Gakpo isn’t that kind of player. We have missed that this season

Pretty obvious apart from gakpos lover

pretty sure Slot and Klopp both rated diaz more, but what do they know.

[CCTV]

Mate, seriously? You’re still clinging to that Goals and Assists report? It’s genuinely hilarious. You've convinced yourself that Cody Gakpo....the master of the perfectly placed tap-in - is a better footballer because he’s got a few more receipts in the final third. You are confusing a tidy finisher with a World-Class Force of Nature, and the sheer weight of reality is crushing your argument.

The debate isn't about who cleaned up more easy chances; it's about who makes Liverpool win. Let's look at the only metric that truly reflects a player's fundamental value: the Team Win Percentage. The difference is brutal: Luis Díaz has a higher overall win rate than Gakpo in the league, despite the universe actively trying to stop him.

And here is the context that absolutely destroys your point: Díaz achieved that higher win percentage while battling through the most unimaginable adversity. Gakpo has enjoyed relative stability and consistency since he arrived. Díaz, on the other hand, had his career derailed by two separate, horrific knee injuries that stole an entire season from him, shattering his momentum. But even more gut-wrenching, he had to play football—and scored a crucial equalizer against Luton, by the way...while his father was held captive by kidnappers.

When you weigh all that up - the double injury, the mental trauma, the sheer pressure - and Luis Díaz still has a superior influence on the final result, what does that tell you? It tells you that his raw pace, his relentless press, and his ability to turn a game single-handedly are assets Gakpo simply doesn't possess. Gakpo is a beneficiary of the system; Díaz is the ignition switch. He's the player who frightens defenders, dictates the tempo, and embodies the fighting spirit of the club. You can keep your spreadsheet, mate. I'll stick with the player whose mere presence means we win more often, no matter what personal hell he's fighting through. Díaz is simply built different.

Forever.

You brought up goals & assists by Diaz at Bayern to state.... Unlike Cody - who is decent but nothing more

Then I pointed out Gakpo betters Diaz for goals & assists at LFC, and suddenly I'm clinging to the goals and assists...

As per Transfermarkt last season and today, both are valued at 70 million.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/liverpool-fc/kader/verein/31/plus/0/galerie/0?saison_id=2024

That's an objective measure of their valuation.
Like goals & assists. Figures given.

Given your claim our low points total in the PL, was down to the low quality of the team last season, disputing my counter claim by showing the last several seasons points totals after 34 games....
What numbers/analysis have you for the win ratio, The difference is brutal:

[CCTV]

VVD Win ratio: 68.58%
W:227 D:51 L:53

Diaz Win ratio: 67.57%
W:100 D:29 L:19

Salah Win ratio: 63.92%
W:264 D:76 L:73

Gakpo Win ratio: 62.86%
W:88 D:25 L:27

Rush Win ratio: 54.7% W:361 D:165 L:134

Gerrard Win ratio: 52.39%
W:372 D:167 L:171

Suarez Win ratio: 50.38%
W:67 D:30 L:36

That's a few win ratios for context.

Gakpo close to Salah, both sitting below VVD & Diaz.
So, Diaz is also better than Salah on Win ratio.
The difference is essentially brutal:

But on goals or assists per minute at LFC...

Career stats

Suarez
Played 825
Scored 503
Assisted 269
Minutes 67,163
Goal/or/assist per 87 minutes
(Suarez at Barcelona per 77.4 minutes just cause he's played for a lot of clubs),

Rush
Played 778
Scored 358
Assisted 111
Minutes 66,753
Goal/or/assist per 142.3 minutes

Salah
Played 653
Scored 322
Assisted 151
Minutes 50,053
Goal/or/assist per 105.8 minutes

Record at LFC

Rush
Played 654
Scored 339
Assisted 110
Minutes 56,533
Goal/or/assist per 125.9 minutes

Salah
Played 401
Scored 245
Assisted 113
Minutes 32,678
Goal/or/assist per 91.3 minutes

Suarez
Played 133
Scored 82
Assisted 31
Minutes 11,325
Goal/or/assist per 100.2 minutes

Suarez at Barcelona per 77.4 minutes

This season Salah per 79 minutes all comps

Although out of date now, Salah having played more games...
We see Salah & Suarez & Rush are better attackers than Diaz on goal-or-assists per minute.

Are you proposing Diaz is better than Salah, Gakpo, Rush & Suarez based on Win ratios ?

The per minute stats suggest Diaz trails Gakpo, and both are trailing Rush, Suarez & Salah.
That seems wholly sounder, do you think ?

[Steveo]

You’re missing the point so spectacularly, it’s almost impressive. You started by trying to prove Gakpo was better than Díaz. When your simple G+A table blew up in your face (because Díaz still has the superior win ratio despite facing trauma and double injury!), you pivoted to comparing Diaz to club legends. That's not a debate; that's desperation.

Comparing Apples to Liverpool Legends is Absurd. Only someone who never watched these players could attempt to boil their individual genius down to a single "goals-or-assists per minute" number. As if football is a video game.

Yes, Rush, Suarez, and Salah are statistical giants—they played through seasons where they carried the side to 90+ points or title contention. Trying to use their career numbers to discredit Díaz's proven impact on an identical, contemporaneous team is intellectually lazy.

You mentioned Salah? His greatest seasons were through 97, 99, and 92-point campaigns. Díaz and Gakpo played in the exact same squad, at the exact same time, under the exact same conditions - yet
Gakpo’s influence is demonstrably weaker on the single metric that matters most: WIN RATIO.

The Eye Test… The ONLY true stat Face it, mate - you haven’t got a clue because you insist on using numbers rather than your eyes.

For a kick-off, Suarez towers above all of them. His impact and sheer ability to change a game, change a season, and drag a team close to a title in 2014 is something Salah, Gakpo, and Díaz haven't done. The statistics you obsess over will never show you that fire, that terror he put into defenders. Only seeing him on the pitch can.

I’ve watched every one of the players you have mentioned and many times over. And I'll tell you this…only one of Cody and Luis is even within touching distance of the levels set by Salah, Rush, and the incomparable Suarez. And it sure as hell isn't the player who is slower, less dynamic, and less impactful defensively. It's Díaz.

Liberation….You are watching football through a calculator. Please, for the love of god, try and get yourself a ticket. I know it isn’t easy, but do it. Liberate yourself. Go and watch the team you say you support. Go and sit in the ground, feel the anticipation, hear the shouts, and truly see the difference between a player who merely finishes a move and a player who creates the very possibility of victory. You will have your eyes opened, and you will finally understand what the Win Ratio is actually telling you.

Forever.

[CCTV]

You really are Tony Blairs Son.

You brought up goals and assists to slate Gakpo.

I showed you Gakpo is better than Diaz at LFC for goals and assists.

You then brought up Win ratio, your new most important thing....

Analysis by Win ratio would suggest Diaz is the best forward.
Better than Salah, Suarez, Rush & Gakpo. Diaz is also better than Salah on Win ratio

You started with goals & assists, then you pivoted to win ratio, then you dont like what this metric suggests, so you ramble absolute bollocks.

Goals & assists per minute is the best metric to gauge an attackers contribution.

As said you have most cockeyed eye in football.

[Steveo]

I understand accepting reality is not easy for some: But goals and assists per minute can lead anyone up the garden path…. which opponents? which competitions? - Mickey Mouse cups or the big league games that win you titles?

Regardless even by your own ridiculous yard stick - it’s time to face the music…

Not that I think these stats come close to exposing the gulf in class differential between these 2 players here but IF you cannot do the eye (smell) test - and are wedded to statistics… Even on this most basic metric the numbers are below

From - https://www.lfchistory.net

Gakpo
Win ratio: 62.86% W:88 D:25 L:27
Games/goals ratio: 3.11
Games/assists ratio: 8.24

https://www.lfchistory.net/players/player/profile/1409


Diaz
Win ratio: 67.57% W:100 D:29 L:19
Games/goals ratio: 3.61
Games/assists ratio: 9.25

https://www.lfchistory.net/players/player/profile/1396


:forever….

[CCTV]

I've already provided those stats.

And shown you that by your new measure, one would conclude Diaz is better than Salah, Gakpo, Rush & Suarez.
Using your new most important metric Win ratios.

Using goals and assists per minute, the best metric of an attackers quality, we see that Salah, Suarez & Rush are better attackers than both Diaz & Grav. This measure suggests Gakpo is better than Diaz as an attacker.

Heres a bit from another thread....

Diaz due to goals & assists at Bayern is Unlike Cody - who is decent but nothing more

The player ratings don't support that...
The objective market valuations don't support that....
The goals or assists per minute stats don't support that...

Steveo has concocted a new formula though. Under Steveos formula, Diaz on Win ratio is superior to Salah, Gakpo, Rush & Suarez.
------------------

Apparently that is the measure which best aligns with Steveos eyes

[Steveo]

Oh, I see. When other more meaningful stats stack up in Diaz's favour, suddenly that metric is now "Steveo's formula," and it ranks Díaz above Salah, Rush, and Suárez.? How so when Diaz never played in the 97 and 99 point Liverpool side or in the Same Era as Rush and Suarez????

This is exactly why you're a stat-obsessed fool who lacks context. You accidentally stumbled onto the one truth that exposes your entire argument: Simple G+A is useless without advanced context.

Let’s unpack your absolute meltdown:

1. The Win Ratio Fallacy
You claim the Win Ratio is flawed because it makes Díaz "better than Salah and Suárez." Congratulations! You've successfully pointed out the fundamental limitation of using ONE metric in isolation.

Win Ratio is a TEAM metric. Díaz has a higher win rate because his style of play (elite pressing, high ball progression, 1v1 threat) is exactly what transforms a good Liverpool side into a winning Liverpool side. He is the system upgrade that leads to more points.

Salah (much of what makes up his ratio), Rush, Suárez played in different eras, under different managers, and with completely different defensive responsibilities. Comparing them using this single metric is as pointless as comparing their shorts length.

2. The G+A Per Minute baloney
You call G+A per minute the "best metric." In the analytic world, this is known as the Beginner's Metric because it actively ignores everything that happens outside the opposition box.

Díaz vs. Gakpo is a qualitative difference:

Gakpo has a better G+A per minute because he overperforms his Expected Goals (xG)—meaning he finishes his chances clinically.

Díaz's value lies in creating xG through unique, high-risk actions. He is elite at progressive carries and (like you do over John Henry) successful dribbles (the things G+A ignores). He’s creating the chance out of nothing; Gakpo is waiting for the perfect moment.

The Final Reality Check: Market Value, Ratings, and the Eye Test
You threw out player ratings and market value to prove your point, but they directly contradict your G+A claim:

Market Value: The market values players based on their versatility, profile, pace, and future potential - all areas where Díaz is considered superior to Gakpo. Money follows impact, not just clean-up goals.

Ratings: Player ratings are designed to incorporate the very factors you keep ignoring: Dribbles, Defensive Pressure, Ball Progression, and successful take-ons. These metrics consistently show that Díaz has a higher overall contribution rating than Gakpo in open play.

Your argument boils down to: "My single favorite stat says Gakpo is better, but every single other metric—including the one I introduced—says Díaz is better. I choose to ignore reality."

The eye test, the Win Rate, the progressive metrics, and the simple reality of his performance under extreme duress all scream the same thing: Díaz is well ahead - Gakpo is very good, I think we need better. Keep worshipping your G+A spreadsheet. I'll stick with the player who actually drives the WINNING culture.

Forever.

[Kev0909]

Hey CCTV considering you're the statmaster, last place and around 100 pts behind next place me, not going too well ey ?!?!

forgot to check it lately, glad you're still far behind

you should be pro at this.

Fantasy football king, glad someone is lower than me xoxo

[CCTV]

Oh, I see. When other more meaningful stats stack up in Diaz's favour, suddenly that metric is now "Steveo's formula," and it ranks Díaz above Salah, Rush, and Suárez.? How so when Diaz never played in the 97 and 99 point Liverpool side or in the Same Era as Rush and Suarez????

This is exactly why you're a stat-obsessed fool who lacks context. You accidentally stumbled onto the one truth that exposes your entire argument: Simple G+A is useless without advanced context.

Let’s unpack your absolute meltdown:

1. The Win Ratio Fallacy
You claim the Win Ratio is flawed because it makes Díaz "better than Salah and Suárez." Congratulations! You've successfully pointed out the fundamental limitation of using ONE metric in isolation.

Win Ratio is a TEAM metric. Díaz has a higher win rate because his style of play (elite pressing, high ball progression, 1v1 threat) is exactly what transforms a good Liverpool side into a winning Liverpool side. He is the system upgrade that leads to more points.

Salah (much of what makes up his ratio), Rush, Suárez played in different eras, under different managers, and with completely different defensive responsibilities. Comparing them using this single metric is as pointless as comparing their shorts length.

2. The G+A Per Minute baloney
You call G+A per minute the "best metric." In the analytic world, this is known as the Beginner's Metric because it actively ignores everything that happens outside the opposition box.

Díaz vs. Gakpo is a qualitative difference:

Gakpo has a better G+A per minute because he overperforms his Expected Goals (xG)—meaning he finishes his chances clinically.

Díaz's value lies in creating xG through unique, high-risk actions. He is elite at progressive carries and (like you do over John Henry) successful dribbles (the things G+A ignores). He’s creating the chance out of nothing; Gakpo is waiting for the perfect moment.

The Final Reality Check: Market Value, Ratings, and the Eye Test
You threw out player ratings and market value to prove your point, but they directly contradict your G+A claim:

Market Value: The market values players based on their versatility, profile, pace, and future potential - all areas where Díaz is considered superior to Gakpo. Money follows impact, not just clean-up goals.

Ratings: Player ratings are designed to incorporate the very factors you keep ignoring: Dribbles, Defensive Pressure, Ball Progression, and successful take-ons. These metrics consistently show that Díaz has a higher overall contribution rating than Gakpo in open play.

Your argument boils down to: "My single favorite stat says Gakpo is better, but every single other metric—including the one I introduced—says Díaz is better. I choose to ignore reality."

The eye test, the Win Rate, the progressive metrics, and the simple reality of his performance under extreme duress all scream the same thing: Díaz is well ahead - Gakpo is very good, I think we need better. Keep worshipping your G+A spreadsheet. I'll stick with the player who actually drives the WINNING culture.

Forever.

Unlike Cody - who is decent but nothing more

Thats what you said and cited Diaz goals and assists at Bayern.

When goals and assists didn't suit you, you moved to win ratio.

The Transfermarkt valuations shows 2 players, both highly valued at 70mill. This doesn't support your idea at all

Now using win ratios as you have decided to do, well this leaves you with the unfortunate position of stating Diaz is a better player than Salah. As Diaz win ratio is much higher than Salahs.

Whereas via goals & assists per minute there is no such issue. Salah is clearly better than both Gakpo & Diaz.

With goals and assists per minute each of Suarez, Salah & Rush are better attackers than Gakpo & Diaz.

So at this point, if you had any integrity, you would decide to stick with your claim and pronounce Diaz a better attacker than Salah, Gakpo, Rush & Suarez based on your new found love of win ratios.
Or you would admit that goals and assists are a better metric for an individuals performance.

The with/without stats are inherently poor measures of an individual. You have to do a fair bit of detailed analysis to get anything out of them. This was covered by me on 2 previous occasions, once with Coutinho and the other with 4231 v 433 in one of Klopps season.

As said my suspicion was that you'd be using this stat and analysis, in the much the way you used points totals to infer that our squad had low quality last year. Refusing to accept our points totals after 34 games and the last 4 games we were celebrating on the beach.

Low and behold, it only took the introduction of Salahs win ratio to get you upset.

There's never a time where I need to exclude players, or clubs, cause it doesnt benefit my ends.
Any club any players is fair game for comparison.

Hey CCTV considering you're the statmaster, last place and around 100 pts behind next place me, not going too well ey ?!?!

forgot to check it lately, glad you're still far behind

you should be pro at this.

Fantasy football king, glad someone is lower than me xoxo

I really hope you finish above me, I've done better in other years but not really too fussed, and it seems to be very important to you.
You do know you can click in and see points totals in previous years