The special relationship

[stevie harkness]

On the NHS,

Does anyone think the UK is healthier now after decades of the NHS ?

No, but that doesn't mean it was a bad idea.

So many factors go to make up the health of a nation, it's not just pills and potions (which are actually for ill-health)

Food production, pollution (of all kinds), the erosion of community...

[redebreck]

On the NHS,

Does anyone think the UK is healthier now after decades of the NHS ?

No, but that doesn't mean it was a bad idea.

So many factors go to make up the health of a nation, it's not just pills and potions (which are actually for ill-health)

Food production, pollution (of all kinds), the erosion of community...

NHS. A brilliant concept. Initially it worked well. I believe people are healthier since the inception of the NHS.
Treatment is/should be available to everyone. Air pollution (primarily road vehicles) is increasingly affecting people's health.
The NHS is struggling...
(a) because there are too many people living in the UK
(b) some NHS staff abusing it (c) poor management (d) waste - prescriptions for example, the NHS has to throw away millions of pounds in prescriptions that are either un-used or over-prescribed.

[CCTV]

I'd agree with both of ye it is a good concept and well intentioned.
But I'd also argue that without it Britain would be a healthier society, I'd disagree with redebreck on this matter of Britain being healthier today.
People who are poor and ill would be screwed to an extent which is why we like it. People wont care for their health as much when ill health costs them nothing or far less when they need intervention.

If you take it as a society that the aims of the NHS is to provide medical care then as a society it should aim for less demands on the NHS and this would require stringent efforts on behalf of the individual and the society/state. I dont think you can honestly say the responsibilities are performing in tandem with the rights: Individually and societally/state/commerce

[redebreck]

I'd agree with both of ye it is a good concept and well intentioned.
But I'd also argue that without it Britain would be a healthier society, I'd disagree with redebreck on this matter of Britain being healthier today.
People who are poor and ill would be screwed to an extent which is why we like it. People wont care for their health as much when ill health costs them nothing or far less when they need intervention.

If you take it as a society that the aims of the NHS is to provide medical care then as a society it should aim for less demands on the NHS and this would require stringent efforts on behalf of the individual and the society/state. I dont think you can honestly say the responsibilities are performing in tandem with the rights: Individually and societally/state/commerce

I consider the UK as being healthier because more of the population has, in theory, access to healthcare.
I can't disagree about people not caring for their own health adequately - didn't take this into account.
Do you think the old U S of A is a healthier society? Over there, all healthcare as I understand it, has to be paid for.
If you're ill or injured and can't afford it, you don't get the healthcare you need, or am I wrong?

[CCTV]

I consider the UK as being healthier because more of the population has, in theory, access to healthcare.
I can't disagree about people not caring for their own health adequately - didn't take this into account.
Do you think the old U S of A is a healthier society? Over there, all healthcare as I understand it, has to be paid for.
If you're ill or injured and can't afford it, you don't get the healthcare you need, or am I wrong?

Speak with a nurse, doc or shrink or look at stats. It's not good.

No the USA is a much sicker nation across health statistics. Roughly speaking twice as bad as the UK which has been tied in to their levels of financial inequality in the affluenza book.

America has the best healthcare in the world without doubt in terms of quality. If you dont have insurance and/or money though you're fucked. Technically you cannot be refused life saving care but you will be billed accordingly and for those without it's a crippling cost.
20-45 thousand people are said to die every year due to a lack of access and avoidance.

I've been told by a doctor working in the system there that the costs are due to the quality of care but they have a huge issue with insurance costs in case they are sued as the payouts are huge.

Believe there are say means of getting healthcare much like food banks over here.

[stevie harkness]

I'd agree with both of ye it is a good concept and well intentioned.
But I'd also argue that without it Britain would be a healthier society, I'd disagree with redebreck on this matter of Britain being healthier today.
People who are poor and ill would be screwed to an extent which is why we like it. People wont care for their health as much when ill health costs them nothing or far less when they need intervention.

If you take it as a society that the aims of the NHS is to provide medical care then as a society it should aim for less demands on the NHS and this would require stringent efforts on behalf of the individual and the society/state. I dont think you can honestly say the responsibilities are performing in tandem with the rights: Individually and societally/state/commerce

You say "People won't care for their health as much when ill health costs them nothing" - SOME people sure, but not all. There are still a few people who take responsibility for their health and don't use the NHS or GPs. And the NHS was set up in a time when British people still had that self-sufficient attitude post war.

You're always going to get people who don't take responsibility for their life and health - that is a symptom of not being fully healthy (and it's a symptom that is not addressed)

You're always going to get patients who are late for appointments or who forget appointments or miss appointments - again that is a symptom (healthy people who have their shit together don't annoy doctors in this way)

The NHS squanders time/money/resources on unnecessary treatments no doubt. People get a sense of entitlement, just because a medical procedure or treatment is possible then they think it's their right. I'd disagree. There is, and has to be, a limit, none of us can live forever.

[Nineteenx]

NHS. A brilliant concept. Initially it worked well. I believe people are healthier since the inception of the NHS.
Treatment is/should be available to everyone. Air pollution (primarily road vehicles) is increasingly affecting people's health.
The NHS is struggling...
(a) because there are too many people living in the UK
(b) some NHS staff abusing it (c) poor management (d) waste - prescriptions for example, the NHS has to throw away millions of pounds in prescriptions that are either un-used or over-prescribed.

It's struggling because the 'real term' funding has been cut year on year for the last several years which is compounded by the money it has to pay as a result of the part privatisation of it.

I'm fucking fed up of privatisation, it pisses me off, it is NOT the property of any government to sell and never was, any of it, all of the things the Tories have flogged off in the last 40 years were the property of the people who paid for them in years and years of taxes

US healthcare is expensive, they leave people to die on trolleys in they don't have insurance, the insurance is incredibly expensive if you have any pre-existing condition and there are lots of ridiculous exclusions in the policies to stop them having to pay out, medication is vastly more expensive. I read something recently, can't remeber the exact figures, but it was something like over a million people in the US had spent over 64,000 on medical bills in the last year and 73% of them HAD health insurance.

[CCTV]

You say "People won't care for their health as much when ill health costs them nothing" - SOME people sure, but not all. There are still a few people who take responsibility for their health and don't use the NHS or GPs. And the NHS was set up in a time when British people still had that self-sufficient attitude post war.

You're always going to get people who don't take responsibility for their life and health - that is a symptom of not being fully healthy (and it's a symptom that is not addressed)

You're always going to get patients who are late for appointments or who forget appointments or miss appointments - again that is a symptom (healthy people who have their shit together don't annoy doctors in this way)

The NHS squanders time/money/resources on unnecessary treatments no doubt. People get a sense of entitlement, just because a medical procedure or treatment is possible then they think it's their right. I'd disagree. There is, and has to be, a limit, none of us can live forever.

I'd argue that the NHS has in part changed peoples levels of responsibilty and self reliance, whilst it's in a way allowed itself to be used against a backdrop of shitty commercial decisions which add to its costs.
People are sicker by some measure today, while diet and exercise have changed for the worse.
Posted in the Brexit thread about the statins controversy and the huge number of deaths it caused across the eu, while the doctor who presented that talk said he couldn't find a healthy meal provided by the hospital.
The traditional British/Victorian diet was comparable with the coveted Mediterranean diet.

A symptom of what exactly ? What you call healthy people I'd argue is a little contentious.
There are people with very poor health or cognitive impairments who genuinely have symptoms of forgetfulness.
But I'd wager a £50-100 pound missed appointment fee would fix a lot of peoples symptoms- whatever they are. A lack of bloody respect and basic organisation isn't a symptom imo. To argue it is, is to diminish personal responsibility to a non entity.

Spoke with doctors from the states who'd encountered people demanding cosmetic surgeries when Obamacare was introduced. That's what they think free Medicare entails, fix all my desires and inadequacies.
Similarly spoke with psychiatrists in the NHS wholl be taking early retirement on account of their not being able to spend enough of their working week with patients and having to spend too much time on paperwork and cpd.

I'm in favour of universal access, but not where it leads to declining levels of health and personal responsibilty at ever greater costs to those who look after themselves in a basic sense.

Speaking with doctors and nurses it's my opinion that the present societies, culture and health have a calamitous relationships.

[stevie harkness]

I'd argue that the NHS has in part changed peoples levels of responsibilty and self reliance, whilst it's in a way allowed itself to be used against a backdrop of shitty commercial decisions which add to its costs.
People are sicker by some measure today, while diet and exercise have changed for the worse.
Posted in the Brexit thread about the statins controversy and the huge number of deaths it caused across the eu, while the doctor who presented that talk said he couldn't find a healthy meal provided by the hospital.
The traditional British/Victorian diet was comparable with the coveted Mediterranean diet.

A symptom of what exactly ? What you call healthy people I'd argue is a little contentious.
There are people with very poor health or cognitive impairments who genuinely have symptoms of forgetfulness.
But I'd wager a £50-100 pound missed appointment fee would fix a lot of peoples symptoms- whatever they are. A lack of bloody respect and basic organisation isn't a symptom imo. To argue it is, is to diminish personal responsibility to a non entity.

Spoke with doctors from the states who'd encountered people demanding cosmetic surgeries when Obamacare was introduced. That's what they think free Medicare entails, fix all my desires and inadequacies.
Similarly spoke with psychiatrists in the NHS wholl be taking early retirement on account of their not being able to spend enough of their working week with patients and having to spend too much time on paperwork and cpd.

I'm in favour of universal access, but not where it leads to declining levels of health and personal responsibilty at ever greater costs to those who look after themselves in a basic sense.

Speaking with doctors and nurses it's my opinion that the present societies, culture and health have a calamitous relationships.

I’m not sure the NHS is responsible for changing people’s levels of responsibility, I don’t think these societal changes were ever envisaged but the NHS has failed to adapt to them.

Agree on diet - and hospital food is a fking embarrassment, i’d be ashamed to be a doctor as part of that set up. Health Service my arse.

Disagree on charging people - whether for missed appointments, parking fees - making it about money, it just punishes the poor, it’s no deterrent to the rich. Unless of course you charge as a percentage of their wealth, eh comrade?

I’d say a symptom is any undesirable effect of being ill! That doesn’t take away personal responsibility but it needs to be recognised and addressed. I’ve spoken to cancer patients in particular who complain of “appointment fatigue” being put through the mill of the medical service, having to go here, having to go there, public transport, finding toilets, it’s hard work when what they really need is a rest!

Agree on (most) cosmetic surgery, I already said the NHS squanders money and resources on needless treatments. Some things you just can’t put a price on but we make it about money because it’s the easy (and profitable) way out. There are urban parking spaces that earn more money per hour than a human being on minimum wage. That’s Britain.

And I agree on your other points, I don’t know how attitudes are going to change unless we go through a war or a depression or famine post Brexit which forces us to change...

[Nineteenx]

We cannot afford to lose the NHS to privatisation, we have wage inequality, poverty, child malnutrition and childhood diseases like rickets at worse levels than during Victorian times.

Privatisation is the biggest swindle of UK taxpayers ever, firstly, over years of contributions of tax, the taxpayers, NOT the government have actually paid for and own the businesses, most of all almost all companies privatised see the 'investors/share holders' only take control of the operational side, the UK tax payer still foots the bill for the maintenance and upkeep of infrastructure while the investors take all the profits. As if that wasn't enough of an outrageous swindle, they then employ contractors they or their cronies have vested interests in to undertake the maintenance on whopping over the odds contracts to siphon even more taxpayers money out of the system into private hands. They're doing that to the NHS already with the part privatisation, some hospitals have maintenance contracts that prevent them from changing a light bulb and are charged as much as 85 just for a guy to come and change it for them.

It's all and always has been a device to take taxpayers money out of the system and put it into private hands and it costs the UK taxpayer billions, more than we ever paid the EU, every single year

The NHS is being deliberately underfunded, they have held the desire to privatise it for a very long time, it really isn't workable, it will kill millions, people won't be able to afford their medicines, or insurance, they'd be leaving people to die on trolleys and within 5 years UK taxpayers would be paying record amounts of their money into NHS maintenance bills, far more money than the Tories ever gave the current service as the siphoning of taxpayers money into private hands goes into overdrive, it's fucking money laundering, they should get locked up. 118 current Tory MP's have considerable financial stakes in private healthcare providers, surprise surprise

Special relationship my arse, that super volcano in Yellowstone can't erupt soon enough and bury the fuckers

[redebreck]

And I agree on your other points, I don’t know how attitudes are going to change unless we go through a war or a depression or famine post Brexit which forces us to change...

I'm wondering if the UK would ever get to the point of a revolution?

We cannot afford to lose the NHS to privatisation, we have wage inequality, poverty, child malnutrition and childhood diseases like rickets at worse levels than during Victorian times.

Privatisation is the biggest swindle of UK taxpayers ever, firstly, over years of contributions of tax, the taxpayers, NOT the government have actually paid for and own the businesses, most of all almost all companies privatised see the 'investors/share holders' only take control of the operational side, the UK tax payer still foots the bill for the maintenance and upkeep of infrastructure while the investors take all the profits. As if that wasn't enough of an outrageous swindle, they then employ contractors they or their cronies have vested interests in to undertake the maintenance on whopping over the odds contracts to siphon even more taxpayers money out of the system into private hands. They're doing that to the NHS already with the part privatisation, some hospitals have maintenance contracts that prevent them from changing a light bulb and are charged as much as 85 just for a guy to come and change it for them.

It's all and always has been a device to take taxpayers money out of the system and put it into private hands and it costs the UK taxpayer billions, more than we ever paid the EU, every single year

The NHS is being deliberately underfunded, they have held the desire to privatise it for a very long time, it really isn't workable, it will kill millions, people won't be able to afford their medicines, or insurance, they'd be leaving people to die on trolleys and within 5 years UK taxpayers would be paying record amounts of their money into NHS maintenance bills, far more money than the Tories ever gave the current service as the siphoning of taxpayers money into private hands goes into overdrive, it's fucking money laundering, they should get locked up. 118 current Tory MP's have considerable financial stakes in private healthcare providers, surprise surprise

Special relationship my arse, that super volcano in Yellowstone can't erupt soon enough and bury the fuckers

If what you say in this post about the NHS is true, the population should be made aware of it.

[stevie harkness]

I'm wondering if the UK would ever get to the point of a revolution?

Hard to imagine. Ordinary people put up with all kinds of abuse. Rioting isn't unknown though, I think if we are faced with empty supermarket shelves we'll get some of those but not an organized revolution, just lawlessness and crime targeting the vulnerable rather than those in power.

[Balinkay]

I'm wondering if the UK would ever get to the point of a revolution?

I very much doubt it. Doesn't seem like your style.

[CCTV]

I very much doubt it. Doesn't seem like your style.

Its something odd about the English. Think most other European countries with the Brexit vote and results would be far worse off as a society given the same circumstances that have followed.

[CCTV]

I’m not sure the NHS is responsible for changing people’s levels of responsibility, I don’t think these societal changes were ever envisaged but the NHS has failed to adapt to them.

Agree on diet - and hospital food is a fking embarrassment, i’d be ashamed to be a doctor as part of that set up. Health Service my arse.

Disagree on charging people - whether for missed appointments, parking fees - making it about money, it just punishes the poor, it’s no deterrent to the rich. Unless of course you charge as a percentage of their wealth, eh comrade?

I’d say a symptom is any undesirable effect of being ill! That doesn’t take away personal responsibility but it needs to be recognised and addressed. I’ve spoken to cancer patients in particular who complain of “appointment fatigue” being put through the mill of the medical service, having to go here, having to go there, public transport, finding toilets, it’s hard work when what they really need is a rest!

Agree on (most) cosmetic surgery, I already said the NHS squanders money and resources on needless treatments. Some things you just can’t put a price on but we make it about money because it’s the easy (and profitable) way out. There are urban parking spaces that earn more money per hour than a human being on minimum wage. That’s Britain.

And I agree on your other points, I don’t know how attitudes are going to change unless we go through a war or a depression or famine post Brexit which forces us to change...

For me when you change the game/rules
you change the behaviour.

If you're super rich you likely will not miss an appointment, and if you do it likely wont be in the NHS it'll be private or America.
If we take the many affluent people whose income exceeds 50k per annum, they arent the types of people to scoff at £50-100 charges. It's an effective measure as nobody likes to have to incur a charge for missing an appointment.
I'd agree and have done earlier for people with severe illnesses or cognitive disorders their could be an an excemption, but let's not make out the general public play no part. I doubt you do but replying to the text.

Yep parking is expensive and so are the cars that are commonplace as redebreck noted in a few posts which get little reply it's part of the changes in society.