Brexit thread 2 Electric Boogaloo

[CCTV]

So is Bojo resigning now or what? This whole thing is such a mess, it'd be hilarious, if weren't so detrimental to the EU and UK.

Resigning for what exactly ? Never !

Bojo will carry on fighting, to deliver Brexit and restore the UK as a respectable sovereign democracy for the people, if necessary for years until the next election, if necessary alone against the establishment.

[Balinkay]

I'm sure that's the exact tone he'd go for in a speech right now. ^

[Nineteenx]

Resigning for what exactly ? Never !

Bojo will carry on fighting, to deliver Brexit and restore the UK as a respectable sovereign democracy for the people, if necessary for years until the next election, if necessary alone against the establishment.

Johnson IS the establishment, he needs removing

Democracy? Johnson? You are having a laugh aren't you?

I'm of this point of view

Cameron is to blame for all the delay and everything being so problematic because he didn't to and risk or legality assessments prior to giving ppl a vote to leave

A lot of people voted to leave with a deal and not no deal because a lot really are gullible enough to believe everything Johnson promised them in the EU Ref

A lot of ppl thought Remain was a forgone conclusion and didn't turn out to vote with some even making a protest vote

Johnson's repeated claims of "The will of 17.4m ppl" is entirely false because 17.4m didn't vote for no deal

In the UK a 'Term' for Gov lasts 5 years unless the Gov calls the election earlier

In 2017 millions of people had changed their minds from how they voted just 2 years earlier in 2015

In 2017 54% of people voted for a parties either ruling out no deal or with a remain stance, 44% voted Tory, although they were thought to be negotiating a deal at that time. even if all the 44% who voted Tory were for no deal, it was still blindingly obvious that the majority did not want or give any mandate for a no deal Brexit

Considering the length of a 'term' and how many millions changed their minds between 2015 and 2017 and that 3 years have passed since the referendum, the only reasonable democratic way of resolving Brexit is to let the people have the final say

The US model the UK has followed for 40 years is very broken and we desperately need to move away from it. The money the UK pay to the EU is a drop in the ocean compared to the amount of taxpayers money that's syphoned out of the system through privatisation each year which is 100's of billions

[RedNoodle]

If you think Johnson alone is 'the establishment' you are sorely mistaken. The same 'establishment' you speak of contains those on the so called opposite side of the fence to Johnson, such as those judges who ruled that his suspension of parliament was illegal.

Why did they all vote that way? Well some believe it's because they want to ride the EU gravy train and get jobs (they may have already been 'offered' to them) within the European courts, something that was put forward to those saying they are/were all 'impartial' when all twelve voted the same way. 'They' are in it for themselves, as are most other politicians and those with power including those who have been made out to be anything but part of the perceived 'establishment'.

Most of these politicians are one and the same, they just wear slightly different masks and take slightly different routes to the same destination. Most of those who voted leave want/wanted to leave one way or the other, with a favourable deal being the preferred option, but being 'fine' with a no-deal Brexit if we're not offered a deal that Britain finds acceptable.

[Nineteenx]

If you think Johnson alone is 'the establishment' you are sorely mistaken.

Lol I do NOT think that, I do know my conclusions I drew as a 12/13 year old that adopting the US social and economic model, selling council homes for votes and privatisation were the road to the ruination of the UK were absolutely correct

You get a shit load of absolute whoppers posting RW crap on twatter and FB about how everything is the EU's fault and having followed it since I formed my beliefs and watched it turn to shit for the reasons I thought it would for the last 36 years it's really easy to pull it apart. Long threads about the EU gave this, that and the other company a loan to move to x, y or z and you're like ok, rewind 30 odd years and work your way forward and you'll see how a lack of investment in Uk business, poor living standards, poverty wages, tax breaks for crony donors instead of tax breaks for companies offering long term investment to create jobs with dedicated 'paying' development programs for a highly skilled workforce and increasing levels of stress fucked UK productivity levels, skills levels and industry

Really need a Corbyn Gov, Labour are the only party who are offering a move away from the broken model with sensible plans to. I'm not living on cloud cuckoo land thinking it won't be hard or take time, it took us 40 yrs to get where we are from where we were, it will make a difference to a lot of the most vulnerable immediately, but it's going to take 3 or 4 terms to really fix things, need to do what the Tories did and at the very least successfully change the model to the extent that any Gov that follows (God forbid) can't easily undo what's been done and has to follow the new model

[redebreck]

Amongst other reasons, a large part of why Liverpool and Merseyside voted remain was/is because of the money they are/were getting from the EU.

Interesting. I live in Blaenau Gwent which is top of the league for deprivation in the UK.
Blaenau Gwent, also, is receiving money from the EU. The overwhelming majority of people in Blaenau Gwent voted out!
The EU money is, in people's opinions, not going to where it should go. There is a high level of unemployment in the area and this needed, and still needs, to be addressed before spending money on artistic designs that are easy on the eye and might make the area look good.

[RedNoodle]

Interesting. I live in Blaenau Gwent which is top of the league for deprivation in the UK.
Blaenau Gwent, also, is receiving money from the EU. The overwhelming majority of people in Blaenau Gwent voted out!
The EU money is, in people's opinions, not going to where it should go. There is a high level of unemployment in the area and this needed, and still needs, to be addressed before spending money on artistic designs that are easy on the eye and might make the area look good.

Unfortunately what you said is exactly how/why some have been hoodwinked into thinking they and the areas in which they live are benefiting from being in the EU. The UK is a net contributor to the EU, so any money we get back was our money to begin with.

Not only is that bad enough, but like you alluded to the money areas such as yours gets 'from the EU' has to be spent the way the EU decides it should. This means that money gets spent on things such as vanity projects, or 'perhaps' projects which in some way benefits the EU and it's cronies when it should be used to help the area as a whole, particularly those most in need of a helping hand.

[fiordearg]

A study was done on Liverpool and found that anti EU sentiment declined year on year with the ban on The Sun and higher readership of the more Europhile Mirror.
Seemingly English people in Wales voted heavily for Brexit resulting in a Welsh majority for same.

[redebreck]

My understanding of the EU, as it has been for a fair few years, is this.
Countries "contribute" a percentage of their GDP if they can afford it. The money goes into a central fund.
EU politicians and civil servants take their wages/salaries, not forgetting their expenses.
The people running the EU then decide where the remaining funds will be spent.
My belief is that a small number of countries are "propping up" the EU by contributing far more than they are taking out. I imagine those countries include Germany, France and the UK. Can't think of any others but they might exist. We know for example that Italy and Greece are in a mess financially and are in all likelihood being subsidised by the EU and the primary contributors.
One of my arguments for us leaving the EU is that our UK government should be in charge of distributing the funds that we are, instead, paying into the EU.
This is a very simplistic way of looking at it, I know. Are my assumptions correct or wildly wrong?

[Balinkay]

I think you're right in saying there's very few net contributors to the EU. DEUTSCHLAND being the greatest iirc. Think the UK is second and then it's France. Maybe the likes of Denmark and Sweden are too? No idea. There's fewer countries that pay more than they get back than vice-versa iirc.

[redebreck]

This country/island is becoming a laughing stock, thanks to our parliament's inability to deliver Brexit,
something the electorate voted for through a referendum.

[Nineteenx]

The issue is this, Cameron failed to do the necessary legal and impact assessments prior to giving ppl a vote

He asked a binary question

A binary question requires both answers to be quantified, pretty much set in stone, so he really had to do the assessments and work out what types of leave were possible under UK law to make the leave option as near to that as possible, but failed to

What Cameron in effect did was ask ppl if they wanted to go out for fish and chips or and Indian, a small majority chose Indian, but the menu was massive and a lot of them wanted different things, now Johnson is trying to serve most of those ppl with cold meals that aren't what they ordered and haven't been subject to food standards, including all those who wanted fish and chips

[redebreck]

The issue is this, Cameron failed to do the necessary legal and impact assessments prior to giving ppl a vote

He asked a binary question

A binary question requires both answers to be quantified, pretty much set in stone, so he really had to do the assessments and work out what types of leave were possible under UK law to make the leave option as near to that as possible, but failed to

What Cameron in effect did was ask ppl if they wanted to go out for fish and chips or and Indian, a small majority chose Indian, but the menu was massive and a lot of them wanted different things, now Johnson is trying to serve most of those ppl with cold meals that aren't what they ordered and haven't been subject to food standards, including all those who wanted fish and chips

..and some of those ppl want to re-order and/or try a different restaurant/take-away..

[Nineteenx]

Jesus wept, just watched Question Time from South Shields a lot up there have forgotten it was Tories who destroyed their industry in the first place, a hell of a lot appear to have fallen entirely for the Leave "Don't believe experts mantra" even when those experts are their employers and are THE biggest employers for the entire region and anyone with half a gram of common sense would see that 10% tariffs on car exports, plus massive disruption to the supply chain, plus administration costs of applying the tariffs would make Nissan's position in the NE completely untenable and lead to the loss of over 50k jobs with nothing to replace it and there were idiots talking about voting Tory/Brexit party and 'cleaning up' and leaving with no deal.

[Nineteenx]

Here's another Brexit thing that makes no sense whatsoever

A lot of people prattling on about reclaiming our sovereignty and making our own laws, first off it was our own parliament making our own laws that fucked the UK bugger all to do with the EU, second off, the laws we share with the EU or 90 odd % on workers rights (which we all need) food standards (that protect all our health) and the environment, these are all GOOD laws and necessary laws for our own benefit and for seamless trading with 27 other countries that are THE best and most suited market for what we produce

This 'taking back control' under Tory idea of it is to scrap all those shared laws that are invaluable protections for all of us and to our ability to trade with our biggest market in or out of the EU and wait for it align our laws with God awful US standards that the majority in the US desperately want to get away from and have ones more like ours that's not 'taking back control is it?

So rip up our workers rights, back to 10 days paid holidays, no maternity pay, no contracts of employment, bosses allowed to fire you on a whim with no protections for you, flogging off our NHS

And on top of all that there isn't a better trade deal than the one we have, we don't have to be full EU members, we could pay just for single market access, but a US trade deal isn't mutually beneficial, it's a one way street, they don't have a market for most of what we produce, it's a fucking shit idea