Brexit thread 2 Electric Boogaloo

[Balinkay]

Fry had shared it on twitter - that Mark character is hilarious.

[CCTV]

I'm not sure I follow you either, dude....

All I'm saying is that I think people have legitimate concerns about the Tories having ultimately more clout outside of the EU. Maybe I completely misunderstood the point you were trying to make.

The stuff about fishing - I'll bite. You got sources?

And about pedophiles - well. I'll be honest, I read the article you linked, and just by reading that one article, I can't sum up the problem. What is the problem? OK, I get it, there's some EU law that basically enables pedos to pedo, and if only that pesky law wasn't there, then all the pedo crimes could be solved tonight, right? But take all the sensationalist stuff away and what's the problem, really? What's the law, what's the actual thing it prevents, and is it really a bad thing? I literally can't tell from the article. And I only ask because I know Theresa May in particular is BIG on snooping. So I'm a bit cynical as to Sajid Javid's motives on this. I don't necessarily agree that being able to spy on everyone is a good thing.

I'm looking for you to expand your idea or fear.

What exactly are the fears in a specific sense ?
Are there any instances where they've tried 'it' before now, as in challenged eu rulings to warrant such fears ?
Where are the issues perceived to be ?
Is there a human right you see coming under attack?
Do you think the Tories might lead Britain into an unjustifiable war after leaving the EU, which the eu would prevent if ye were still in it ?
Is it just ye fear Tories? Do you fear labour outside of the EU?
------

I listed 2 items off the top of my head where I've seen the eu being challenged on its rulings/decrees. Neither were mad as I see it. That was my point.

The point here was to show, as I understand it that when issues with rulings are contested they are practical and sensible. Which suggests as it's been claimed/outlined they will keep most if not all of the rulings/precedents.

One example highlighted difficulties with respect to tackling pedophilia. Your response seems to be that this in itself isn't enough (true), but that is besides the point surely ?
It demonstrates where an issue was actually raised and unless you have a problem with that issue being raised, it's an actual case. It's not bemoaning your data protection, its showing where a problem was raised against it. I believe that instance to be sensible.
If you think children's charities are part of some Tory conspiracy to get at your private data, we'll simply have to leave that there tbh. I doubt you do.
I doubt you have a problem with pedophiles data protections being voided in the interest of protecting children or in prosecuting offenders.
It is a huge problem area and it will take far more to tackle it.
In this instance the pedophile would have to give their consent for their data protection to be breached legally otherwise.

Javed Khan, chief executive of Barnardo’s, Britain’s biggest charity, said:
“Online child abuse is appalling. Any regulation change should not restrict the ability of tech companies and law enforcement to work together to stop child abuse online.We would urge the EC to make a simple change to the new e-privacy regulation so that all EU countries can continue to fight this horrific crime effectively....The purpose of the regulations are stop the abuse and misuse of people's data and privacy but the consequence is it potentially undermines what is being done to tackle child sexual abuse online.”

It is understood a number of other European countries have raised concerns in an attempt to force through an alternative option aligning the privacy laws with the GDPR exemptions.
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The documentaries I listed would be a good starting place. Atlantic (https://theatlanticstream.com) in particular if you have an interest in fishing and how stocks become decimated.

The other 1 (shell to sea iirc) shows not so much on fishing itself. But it shows how weak environmental protections in the eu actually are as detailed earlier. It shows our liberal/pro-europe coppers beating protesting pensioners. Another documentary on over fishing is , the end of the line by Rupert Murray?.

There are loads of articles out there about fishing & overfishing. I'm not looking through them for you to find ones I've read before and try and convince you that we are overfishing and this resource is being poorly managed.
I've gone out of my way to find this article as it is a specific source on a claim I make and it's not the exact piece I read before. https://www.google.ie/amp/s/phys.org/news/2009-01-fish-guts-marine-carbon-mystery.amp

I'm not particularly good with search engines.

If in your own research into fishing you've come across or come across in the future a piece on how fishing bans restore corals, post it here please.

[CCTV]

It's quite clear what I mean. CCTV wants to come across as some kind of hero/protector of the meak but is being taken for a ride by believing everything that he reads on this forum. There are hell of a lot of people in England who choose from an early age that being on benifits is a career and do well for it. I might sound like some right wing nutter but I see and experience it everyday of my life.

Sorry for losing it in the matchthread with you, though I'd likely do it again.

I thought it was poor form, what you said and your insinuations as I saw it (still maintain that tbh), still I'll hold myself up as behaving in a poor and ineffective manner. A bit of a dick.

If you behave like a dick online, you can be treated like a dick online. I hold that for myself on here and believe many posters do agree with you that I am dick. Such is the world and free speech.

Think its bizarre to look at the unemployed in the Brexit vote when the majority of people work.

If you think the generationally unemployed or an approximation to that idea have it very easy I'd disagree.

[CCTV]

Might not be much of an apology.

[CCTV]

Next up

Demographics

Now in the 1970s I'm guessing 2.4 children per family in Blighty.

Recent times , you'll need to check, as low as 1.2 children.

Ageing population, baby boomers, just after the war , living longer putting extreme strains on nhs, services, and so on.

Coupled with the fact that to be a university graduate you need £45k+ to become a nurse, doctor, and so on.

So where do you get the qualified people.

Elsewhere.

Britain needs migration. Always has always will. And especiallywith the above stats.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/articles/overviewoftheukpopulation/november2018
"Meanwhile, young males were more likely to be living with their parents than young females (32% of males aged 20 to 34 years, compared with 20% of females aged 20 to 34 years). In general, young adults in the UK are more likely to be living with their parents now than in any time for which comparable data exists (1996 onwards)."

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/livebirths/bulletins/birthsummarytablesenglandandwales/2017
"In 2017, the total fertility rate (TFR) declined for the fifth consecutive year to 1.76 children per woman, from 1.81 in 2016.

'Fertility rates decreased for every age group in 2017, except for women aged 40 years and over, where the rate increased by 1.3% to 16.1 births per 1,000 women in that age group, reaching the highest level since 1949.

The average age of mothers in 2017 increased to 30.5 years, from 30.4 years in 2016 and 26.4 years in 1975.

In 2017, just over half of all live births were born to parents who were married or in a civil partnership (51.9%); however, 67.3% of live births born outside of marriage or civil partnership were to parents who lived together.

28.4% of live births in 2017 were to mothers born outside the UK, following a gradual rise from 11.6% in 1990."

1.8 children per woman say.
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Heard a 'Tory' called moggy saying that there are more places at university since the fees came in, while the lowest 10% of the income distribuiton are now getting into university more easily. He talked about some thresholds for those who took out loans to go to university whereby if they didnt earn above 21k/year they are exempted. Proposed raising to 26k/year.
Not rechecked that so open to correction.

[CCTV]

Magic washing machine
And the incredible stats the other

Lots of great interesting videos on Ted

Jamie Oliver... obesity
And Mike Biddle ..... about plastics
Elon Musk and travel under the city

https://www.ted.com/talks/mike_biddle/up-next

Oh and Google driverless car... x2

Watched the Oliver obesity one, hes passionate
It's amazing how the general quality of food consumed has decreased.
The amount of sugar one can consume thinking your having a healthy diet is scary. Seen it over here with a doctor and one non-obese or even close family and the parents were shocked at the guidelines versus their young kids consumption. The doctor said as well that there are visually obese people but that there are also people who are internally obese.

From wikipedia (quiet bali)
"TOFI[1][2] (thin-outside-fat-inside) is used to describe lean individuals with a disproportionate amount of fat (adipose tissue) stored in their abdomen. The figure to illustrate this shows two men, both 35 years old, with a BMI of 25 kg/m2. Despite their similar size, the TOFI had 5.86 litres of internal fat, whilst the healthy control had only 1.65 litres."

Think this is a great tedtalk. Mick the vegan a youtuber critiques it, but his critique seems to be rather poor, including assumptions about the methodology that were incorrect.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vpTHi7O66pI
Hes written a book and has massive support in the farming community. Explains more elsewhere too.

[CCTV]

Yep another valid point.
This is the case in other wealthy European countries.
Immigrants (I hate this term) taking our jobs. Bullshit , people too lazy to work.

The average EEA migrant arriving in 2016 will contribute a discounted total of around £78,000 to the UK public finances over his or her lifetime.

Overall, the future net contribution of 2016 arrivals alone to the UK public finances is estimated at £25bn.

Had there been no immigration at all in 2016, the rest of us would have had, over time, to find £25bn, through higher taxes, public service cuts, or higher borrowing.

The means to an end argument, should imo dissipate the grandstanding on higher moral principles, but it does have material consequences perhaps.

25 billion is no laughing matter over their lifetimes. Say 25 years and its a shortfall of a billion a year from revenue.
Revenue?

https://www.ukpublicrevenue.co.uk/current_revenue
"Total UK public revenue will amount to £775.8 billion in 2019. Of this 42 percent will be in indirect taxes, 33 percent in income taxes, 18 percent in national insurance contributions, and 7 percent in business and other revenue." Not sure if that is representative of years, guess so for now.

Obviously there's likely to be or may be tariffs on goods that presently do not have them, which would hit consumers spending, but it might benefit the exchequer if you are concerned about revenue overall. I dont know on this so cant claim anything. Just a thought ?

Have you seen 'the UK gold' documentary? Could grab a billion out of them.

[CCTV]

Question

5. What does the UK pay for Europe , but gain from being in the European Union?

6. How can you offer a referendum to the people on such a complex issue?

5 --- https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

"The UK pays more into the EU budget than it gets back.

In 2017 the UK government paid £13 billion to the EU budget, and EU spending on the UK was forecast to be £4 billion. So the UK’s ‘net contribution’ was estimated at nearly £9 billion.

Each year the UK gets a discount on its contributions to the EU—the ‘rebate’—worth about £5.6 billion last year. Without it the UK would have been liable for £18.6 billion in contributions.

The UK pays more into the EU budget than it gets back.

In 2017 the UK government paid £13 billion to the EU budget, and EU spending on the UK was forecast to be £4 billion. So the UK’s ‘net contribution’ was estimated at nearly £9 billion.

Each year the UK gets a discount on its contributions to the EU—the ‘rebate’—worth about £5.6 billion last year. Without it the UK would have been liable for £18.6 billion in contributions.

The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18.6 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day. The rebate is applied straight away (its size is calculated based on the previous year's contributions), so the UK never contributes this much.

The UK’s contributions to the budget vary from year to year, and are forecast to grow towards the end of the decade. They’ve been larger recently than in previous decades.

A membership fee isn’t the same as the total economic cost or benefit of EU membership.

Being in the EU costs money but does it also create trade, jobs and investment that are worth more?

We can be pretty sure about how much cash we put in, but it’s far harder to be sure about how much, if anything, comes back in economic benefits.

£350 million a week doesn’t include the rebate
It’s been claimed that we send £350 million a week to the EU. That misses out the rebate, and it doesn’t represent the total economic costs and benefits of EU membership to the UK.

£350 million is roughly what we would pay to the EU budget without the rebate. The UK actually paid closer to £250 million a week.

The UK Statistics Authority has said the EU membership fee figure of £19 billion a year, or £350 million a week, is "not an amount of money that the UK pays to the EU each year".

Since then, the new chair of the Authority described use of the figure by the Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson, as “a clear misuse of official statistics”.

The UK gets money back
The government then gets some of that money back, mainly through payments to farmers and for poorer areas of the country such as Wales and Cornwall.

In 2017, the UK's ‘public sector receipts’ are estimated to be £4 billion.

So overall we paid in £8.9 billion more than we got back.

The Treasury figures note payments the EU makes directly to the private sector, such as research grants. In 2015, these were worth an estimated £1.5 billion, so including them could reduce our net contribution further still.

The money we get back will be spent on things the government may or may not choose to fund upon leaving the EU. It’s not enough to look at the net contribution in isolation because what we get back isn’t fully under our control."
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6 - the people are sovereign. Referendums are critiqued in theory as those who do tend to say politicians are elected to govern and should do so themselves. It's a fair point but then referendum's should all be critiqued.

The unusual thing about Brexit is that it seems to be a rare referendum where the opportunity to vote and decide the outcome was say not what the government wanted.

In general I'd say you only get to vote in a referendum, where its given freely and not mandated, when the possibility to change is in line with government or institutional desires.

[dicko1969]

A lot to take in.
First thanks to everyone for discussing .

I really do believe that Europe is a good way forward.

The brexiters voted pretty much re immigration and nhs

I think I stated the increase of population is mainly down to an ageing population and baby boomers

UK population increase by 10million.
(Last 15years - 20 years)

Probably 8.5 million the baby boomers and ageing population.

1.5 million net migration

Why do I believe in Europe :

1. Because we are at the negotiating table in Brussels

2. Trade and access to 500million market

3. Peace and collaboration with access to shared technology re planes, ships for military

4. Environment unity to tackle

5. Cultural exchanges (google it)

6. Movement of people within the community. I can work easily in Holland, france, Germany and so on.

7. University access

8. Creating partnerships towns, companies, governments to create better living.

On all the points above , a brexiter can challenge me. Sure he/she can. Because I have not researched anything in depth.

But this is what I believe is Europe. For our kids. For the next generations. I believe it's better to be in Europe.

What has happened is the European debate has been laid out on the table.

Everyone is talking about it.
Nobody knows all the facts
But Everybody now has an opinion.
Probably stronger than ever before.

Farage said in the European union parliament a few days ago , how there was "stronger unity in the people of UK".... WOW.

Demented , trying to plot the downfall of Europe.

There are 73 MEPs for the UK.
Can you name them?
What do they do?
What's their agenda?
What parties?
How to elect them?
(Elections end of May 2019)
There are 12 regions in the UK...
Are they voicing their opinions, or hiding?

This is where Europe fails.
We don't know what they are doing there
It looks very old school in their parliament
Quite a strange set up.

I think people should now say ok.
Let's stay in Europe
Put proper politicians in the European Union, parliamen (whatever that means.)
Get real value for money.

Thing is only about 30% of the public turnout for European elections. They are the end of May.

Right I have admittedly written a load of old bollox. But I don't care.

It's off the cuff, ideas , brainstorming, Saturday night. Best thread ever.

24 UKIP MEPs
20 Labour MEPs
19 CONS MEPs
+10

[dicko1969]

Having listened to Mr Farage and his colleagues and seeing the hubris with which he stands here and
the self-gratification of his position, I sometimes wonder: has he gone to Sunderland and talked to the
workers at the Nissan plant and said to them 'It might cost you your job, but I will get my pipe dream
of so-called sovereignty

– but it might cost you your job, sorry, but I will get my pipe dream of so-
called sovereignty' – has he done that?


Has he gone to Oxford to the Mini plant and said 'I know what
BMW are thinking if there is a no-deal Brexit, but I want it so badly, this no-deal Brexit, that I really do
not care about your job' – has he done that?


That would have been the honest thing to do, I suppose.
Has Dr Liam Fox ever said 'Well, I said it would be the easiest trade deal in human history, but on
second thought, it is much more complicated than I promised before the referendum.'

Has Boris
Johnson gone to the doctors and nurses of the NHS and said 'I did promise you 350 million extra
Pounds a week, but sorry, I cannot deliver on that promise.' Have they done that?

I think frankly that
we would need, if want to come out of this situation, a bit more modesty and honesty on all sides.


I also believe – I just refer to a report by the UK government published in November last year – where
it said that if there is a no-deal Brexit, this would cost approximately 9.3% economic growth.

Are you
willing to pay that price, I ask the Brexiteers on this side?

Are you willing to pay that price?

Are you
willing to sacrifice all those jobs for your pipe dream of so-called sovereignty.

What is that sovereignty
going to bring to you if you live that pipe dream?

[Balinkay]

Whoa, the unis used to be free in the UK?

You commies!

[dicko1969]

As a 'mature' student, over 21+ tuition fees free. 1990s.

[Aldo1988]

Whoa, the unis used to be free in the UK?

You commies!

The student numbers are dropping like a bomb and the Universities are in millions in dept. The government will bail out the bankers but not the universities.

[dicko1969]

UK is a mess
Massive debt
Did I read 90% of GDP

[CCTV]

A lot to take in.
First thanks to everyone for discussing .

Demented , trying to plot the downfall of Europe.

There are 73 MEPs for the UK.
Can you name them?
What do they do?
What's their agenda?
What parties?
How to elect them?
(Elections end of May 2019)
There are 12 regions in the UK...
Are they voicing their opinions, or hiding?

This is where Europe fails.
We don't know what they are doing there
It looks very old school in their parliament
Quite a strange set up.

I think people should now say ok.
Let's stay in Europe
Put proper politicians in the European Union, parliamen (whatever that means.)
Get real value for money.

Thing is only about 30% of the public turnout for European elections.

First sentences agree. Think we need to add more detail and corrections though. On my points too.

The euro is the downfall of Europe. Germany as a central authority its consequence.

72.2% turnout for Brexit shows it is a highly interesting vote for the electorate imo and shows the level of totally disaffected voters in the UK. Ie if you didnt vote for Brexit you probably have 0 trust in politics or voting.
It seems you are attacking the eu and demanding this failed institution should be retained regardless.

Having listened to Mr Farage and his colleagues and seeing the hubris with which he stands here and
the self-gratification of his position, I sometimes wonder: has he gone to Sunderland and talked to the
workers at the Nissan plant and said to them 'It might cost you your job, but I will get my pipe dream
of so-called sovereignty

– but it might cost you your job, sorry, but I will get my pipe dream of so-
called sovereignty' – has he done that?


Has he gone to Oxford to the Mini plant and said 'I know what
BMW are thinking if there is a no-deal Brexit, but I want it so badly, this no-deal Brexit, that I really do
not care about your job' – has he done that?


That would have been the honest thing to do, I suppose.
Has Dr Liam Fox ever said 'Well, I said it would be the easiest trade deal in human history, but on
second thought, it is much more complicated than I promised before the referendum.'

Has Boris
Johnson gone to the doctors and nurses of the NHS and said 'I did promise you 350 million extra
Pounds a week, but sorry, I cannot deliver on that promise.' Have they done that?

I think frankly that
we would need, if want to come out of this situation, a bit more modesty and honesty on all sides.

I also believe – I just refer to a report by the UK government published in November last year – where
it said that if there is a no-deal Brexit, this would cost approximately 9.3% economic growth.

Are you
willing to pay that price, I ask the Brexiteers on this side?

Are you willing to pay that price?

Are you
willing to sacrifice all those jobs for your pipe dream of so-called sovereignty.

What is that sovereignty
going to bring to you if you live that pipe dream?

"A bit more modesty and honesty on all sides" You could apply your critique in a more balanced manner, guess we all could.

Nissan voters do not need to be protected from political thought.

Projections like these I'd suggest are rather hollow "it said that if there is a no-deal Brexit, this would cost approximately 9.3% economic growth."

The economy hasnt tanked already as predicted, nor has been outside the euro currency manifested as foretold. Trying to discuss these claims will take time and effort.

Again balanced characterisations might he best included.
On the day of Brexits results it was an interesting and purported issue, how would the elected politicians who oppose Brexit manage to deliver Brexit as per the results of the referendum. Reported figures 66% of elected mps favour remain.

Whoa, the unis used to be free in the UK?

You commies!

Iirc the finances were directed into the NHS, so maybe they're all commies !!

The rising costs in healthcare and poorer and poorer daily living standards rise, an issue about our lifestyles today. Treating more ailments which have arisen from poorer conditions.