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[Balinkay]

Careful noods, England's a pretty small country - not sure you can fit that gigantic brush in there.

[RedNoodle]

@Noods,

what happened mate, did one of ours cut line in front of you at Tesco? Who hurt you?

And yes, it kind of is your fault - global warming / climate change doesn't happen overnight. You can't seriously blame 15-25 year olds for the abhorrent state of things.

I do agree a lot of us are very hypocritical though. Also think a lot of this is just empty virtue signalling. It's naive and "in vogue" or however the expression in English goes.

However, it's commendable that at least young people are talking about it. It's not often I hear someone older mention the climate at all, when in reality its change is a monstrous threat to all of us. Well maybe not your generation, as you figure you'll be dead by the time Southern Europe is a desert wasteland and Northern Europe is frozen over. I plan to live long enough to see that though! If nothing else, then just for the satisfaction of seeing people who've been well of for a while be… less well off.

The only reason a lot of young people mention the environment is for a bit of virtue signalling and because 'global warming' has only been a 'thing' for the last decade or so. Had the same information been common knowledge/highlighted previously, the same type of debates would have occurred. This isn't happening because the current younger generation happen to be more caring and empathetic than previous generations, because they're certainly not.

We still don't know exactly what effect we've had on the environment, but 'we' have been responsible for likely adverse effects on the environment for a couple of hundred years at least. Trying to pin any adverse changes on any one generation is both disingenuous and a way for some to deflect any responsibility away from themselves when they may have caused/are causing their own adverse effects on the environment. This includes the current younger generation who are very good at pointing their fingers, but aren't very self aware and willing to take responsibility for what they are/should be doing.

[RedNoodle]

Careful noods, England's a pretty small country - not sure you can fit that gigantic brush in there.

I base my views on what I see/experience, not on what is deemed 'acceptable' by this current 'hear/speak/see no evil' world in which we live. There are rarely any absolutes, but there are many more 'general truths' than people want want to admit.

[ianlfc]

True, but conversely the parents in this case are too stubborn, shortsighted and lazy to see that things are actually pretty bad. The truth is somewhere in the middle I'd imagine.

And let's be honest here - if you want change in the world (and I think we all do, young and old alike) you don't turn to people in their 40s. You turn to people in their twenties, because we've not yet been chewed and spat out by life and by extension have the necessary energy and drive to actually accomplish something. It also helps that many of us are basically still teenagers eagerly looking for a hill to heroically and romantically die on. Further still many of us just do it to look good and catch starry eyed naive tail.

The last thing you should be worrying about in your twenties is saving the planet, There's far too much good things to be getting up too. Travelling, partying and mixing them both following a football team is highly recommended. Because once you start a family it slows down. Its when you're in your 30's you start to put paper in the right bins, not your 20's. And If it is youre doing something wrong.

[stevie harkness]

It sounds as though many of these youngsters are too scared to start families and bring children into this world.

If it really is the end of the world then even at my age I'll be partying with the rest of them!

although predictive text wants me to say "praying"

[Balinkay]

The only reason a lot of young people mention the environment is for a bit of virtue signalling

This is completely true. But, as you say, this is the case for many, not all, and I'd argue not the majority.

and because 'global warming' has only been a 'thing' for the last decade or so. Had the same information been common knowledge/highlighted previously, the same type of debates would have occurred.

This is not as true. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/discovery-of-global-warming/ We've known about the effects of CO2 for a good long while, quite a lot longer than you've been alive. I do agree the information was not as easily accessible, but I also remember reading somewhere that environmental issues were actually more politically relevant in the 80s than they are now (speaking time spent on them by each candidate), could be wrong though. So it's not like it wasn't public knowledge that something fishy is going on with the climate.

This isn't happening because the current younger generation happen to be more caring and empathetic than previous generations, because they're certainly not.

I'd argue this is happening because we have no "great enemy" right now. We don't have the Kaiser to smash on Flanders's fields, nor do we have an economic crisis to survive, we won't cower in the bunkers as the Luftwaffe turns our homes to rubble and we won't spend our day being constantly told about the evils of the USSR or protesting against war while consuming endless amounts of drugs and listening to odd music.

People are more easily united by fear and hatred than by anything else, again, making their voting patterns more easy to recognise and control. Which makes you wonder who profits from all of this "climate outrage".

We still don't know exactly what effect we've had on the environment, but 'we' have been responsible for likely adverse effects on the environment for a couple of hundred years at least.

It's true that we started putting gunk in the air with the Industrial Revolution (Industrial towns in England experienced some awful deadly smogs during that period iirc, indicating something might be wrong), but we've been fucking up local ecosystems ever since we invented agriculture. The really bad stuff came with coal burning, the internal combustion engine and the industrialisation of larger countries, which by and large took place in the 20th century.

Trying to pin any adverse changes on any one generation is both disingenuous and a way for some to deflect any responsibility away from themselves when they may have caused/are causing their own adverse effects on the environment. This includes the current younger generation who are very good at pointing their fingers, but aren't very self aware and willing to take responsibility for what they are/should be doing.

Of course it's not only your fault. But it's far more your fault than it is the fault of an 18/25-year-old who just got out of school and has just acquired the right to vote. Take responsibility and vote for people who will do something about it.

I base my views on what I see/experience, not on what is deemed 'acceptable' by this current 'hear/speak/see no evil' world in which we live. There are rarely any absolutes, but there are many more 'general truths' than people want want to admit.

This is, again, very true. I just think you're quite wrong when it comes to my generation, or at least the sample of it I've had the pleasure of experiencing.

The last thing you should be worrying about in your twenties is saving the planet, There's far too much good things to be getting up too. Travelling, partying and mixing them both following a football team is highly recommended. Because once you start a family it slows down. Its when you're in your 30's you start to put paper in the right bins, not your 20's. And If it is youre doing something wrong.

It shouldn't be though Ian. We can't afford the luxury of having a billion people not give a damn about paper recycling (if I can continue your synecdoche). We all have to work together towards the common goal of fucking up the place we inhabit less. And you say you don't worry about those things in your 20s, but here in Germany I'm astounded how careful pretty much every German my age I've met is about polluting. They're extremely vigilant about their waste, they try to fly less and there are initiatives all the time about cleaning our surroundings or better gathering trash. Jerry's very aware of the issue.

Being less horrible to the environment is a way of life - it should be taught to people from the day they are born - like good manners, honesty, indoctrination into the cult of LFC… all that good essential stuff.

Also one of the reasons I said you turn to people in their 20s when you want to make a change is the issue of family. Being a parent is basically a full time job, if you want to do it well. Better to turn to energetic people who don't have a family to feed and are thus probably more willing to do stupid shite for you. Well that would be one reason - the other would be that we're still basically teenagers who can legally buy alcohol.

[ianlfc]

TBF Bali you don't seem your average young twenty-something.

[Balinkay]

It sounds as though many of these youngsters are too scared to start families and bring children into this world.

If it really is the end of the world then even at my age I'll be partying with the rest of them!

although predictive text wants me to say "praying"

I know I'm very afraid of starting a family, and that goes for a few of the people I know. It's scary to think that when my sister was born my father was not much older than I am right now. It's a huge responsibility and seeing the effects of the mistakes our parents made with us and on our mental well-being makes us fear for what we might do to our kids if we're not well enough prepared. Also the world is so much smaller nowadays, there's so much more to do. Once you have a family, you're really tied down.

The questioning of exclusive monogamy and the traditional sense of the word "relationship" don't help either. I'm in no way saying it's a bad thing we're questioning these notions, but I can see how they'd affect young people's willingness to start a family.

It doesn't help that a lot of us are afraid of any sort of responsibility either.

TBF Bali you don't seem your average young twenty-something.

I guess it really depends on the environment - I'd argue I'm not too weird over here.

[CCTV]

@ Bali What do you think of the research by Soon, Connolly and Connolly which posits that since the end of the 1800s that a maximum of 0.12° of the 0.85° in increased temperature is attributable to co2. While the majority of the warming can be attributed to TSI ?

What do you think of the libel Case Mann lost ?
The one where he refused to make his data available for inspection, citing it was his intellectual property, meaning that now saying mann belongs in a state penn and not Penn state, implying fraud is fine. The court awarded costs to ball for the 8 year trial and those costs are said to be in the millions.
Would rather lose his libel case, spend millions in costs (picked up by other interested parties) than put his data and methodology out there for third party inspection and scrutiny ?
The charge is quiet serious.

What do you think of the criticism of cook by respected researchers in the field. The commonly thrown out line of 97% consensus. Poor methodology, selective sampling and poor assessment to deliver a scientific consensus, when there really isn't a consensus.
“Cook survey included 10 of my 122 eligible papers. 5/10 were rated incorrectly. 4/5 were rated as endorse rather than neutral.” —Dr. Richard Tol
“That is not an accurate representation of my paper . . .” —Dr. Craig Idso
“Nope . . . it is not an accurate representation.” —Dr. Nir Shaviv
“Cook et al. (2013) is based on a strawman argument . . .” —Dr. Nicola Scafetta

These 2 are the bedrock of the climate strike and many others campaign. Listen to the science. The hockey stick and the scientific consensus. Both are rather questionable as having scientific integrity.

In the 80s the ozone hole was a big issue and dealt with shortly thereafter largely, though today air aviation is said to be doing damage by releasing sulphites and the likes at such altitudes which eats away at the ozone, though the ozone hole has been at record lows in recent years.

I find it funny how you think global warming is more noods fault than your own. Wouldnt an actual assement of both ye're carbon footprints be a more accurate measurement if you're looking to blame people ?
I'd wager despite increased efficiencies you'll have a bigger footprint per year of life.

[CCTV]

True, but conversely the parents in this case are too stubborn, shortsighted and lazy to see that things are actually pretty bad. The truth is somewhere in the middle I'd imagine. And let's be honest here - if you want change in the world (and I think we all do, young and old alike) you don't turn to people in their 40s. You turn to people in their twenties, because we've not yet been chewed and spat out by life and by extension have the necessary energy and drive to actually accomplish something. It also helps that many of us are basically still teenagers eagerly looking for a hill to heroically and romantically die on. Further still many of us just do it to look good and catch starry eyed naive tail.

Oh dear, students and the elderly are preyed upon for their naivety being easily manipulated and having senses of guilt, dont confuse a flaw for a valour. It's part of the street charities training to prey upon vulnerable adults.

Have you read their demands yet ?

[Balinkay]

I haven't read their demands CC - as I stated, I'm not a huge fan of these protests and I'd probably be inclined to agree elderly and young are easy prey and more easily manipulated; I'm sure you'd agree that middle aged people are too stuck in their ways trying to make their way through life to notice anything farther than their own noses. As I said earlier, the truth is probably somewhere in between. For example, AOC's idea to ban flying by 2025 is utter lunacy. But is probably a good idea to take the train more often than we currently do.

Haven't look at the papers to which you're referring here:

@ Bali What do you think of the research by Soon, Connolly and Connolly which posits that since the end of the 1800s that a maximum of 0.12° of the 0.85° in increased temperature is attributable to co2. While the majority of the warming can be attributed to TSI ?

Is this he paper you mean? https://globalwarmingsolved.com/data_files/SCC2015_preprint.pdf

Might take a look at that first one. Sounds extremely fishy if I'm being honest. Also even if it is true, CO2 is hardly the only pollutant we're throwing up in the air. What's more the more the temperature increases, the more water the atmosphere holds and the more it heats itself. Could be that the study controlled for that, will have to take a look.

I honestly don't know about the cases you're citing. Tjough they do sound very interesting.

I find it funny how you think global warming is more noods fault than your own. Wouldnt an actual assement of both ye're carbon footprints be a more accurate measurement if you're looking to blame people ?
I'd wager despite increased efficiencies you'll have a bigger footprint per year of life.

I'm not looking to blame people - we're all in this together. I just don't like people waving away issues we all face by saying "well screw you guys, you're just as bad as us so there". It's also extremely dishonest to compare our CO2 footprint per year of life. You don't get to make too many decisions for yourself until you come of age at 18. CO2 per year of adult life would be a more accurate assessment imo. I think I'd do reasonably well there.

And even that doesn't really work all that well, since I'll still have to ride the bus. Which isn't electric, since noone voted for it before I came of age. Change in a society takes time.

Of course we're all in this together and we're all to blame to some extent. But it's laughable to suggest that my generation, which has only had the opportunity to impact policy for a decade or so is at fault for the current situation, simply because we've not had the time to make our impact on the world. I'd wager that in 50 years, we'd all have had a lower CO2 footprint than yours and noodle's generation. And hopefully the following ones will be lower still.

Edit: How did you form your opinion on the paper you referenced? Did you read the paper and follow all the references? If so, I'll probably just take you at your word that CO2 only contributes to 15% of global warming, unless I feel like reading more, as you seem like a reasonably critically thinking dude.

[CCTV]

Your submission could not be processed because a security token was missing. If this occurred unexpectedly, please*inform the administrator*and describe the action you performed before you received this error.

The fooking bane of my posting on here

Will try again tomorrow.

[Balinkay]

What the heck does that error message even mean.

Did you delete cookies or something? I don't think there's a session timer on the forum, so it won't have signed you out.

[Balinkay]

Aaah, I think it might be because you were writing too long a post or it was taking too long - think I had the same problem when I tried to start a Maradona vs Messi discussion.

If so, I don't think there's any cause - I fail to see where we actually disagree.

[CCTV]

What the heck does that error message even mean.

Did you delete cookies or something? I don't think there's a session timer on the forum, so it won't have signed you out.

Dunno
Think it might have happened as a result of looking at others tabs and coming back to the thread.