EFL Cup Final Match Thread: Liverpool v Newcastle

[jozza800]

The Geordies are having a trophy parade on Saturday week. Just fucking right, there's a so-called elite snobbery over winning what's was known as the league Cup
Their fans will have a brilliant day, they deserve it.

Absolutely. Especially considering the length between this and their last trophy!

Whilst we've not always been at the top table for a lot of the time i've followed the club, we've always had a reasonable collection of trophies. 95 to 01 and 2012 to 2019 being the longest. And they felt like awful long time.

Can you image waiting 50 years!

[teesred]

The Geordies are having a trophy parade on Saturday week. Just fucking right, there's a so-called elite snobbery over winning what's was known as the league Cup
Their fans will have a brilliant day, they deserve it.

100%. All the fans on socials taking the piss will be the ones who aren't celebrating a trophy win.
Fair play to them. Who gives a fuck what other fans think.

[Daffydd]

Cup wins are often made out to be about winning a one off game on the day but it's also about the journey to the final. Some teams waltz past lower league opposition to get to Wembley but Newcastle had to get past the current top four in the league to win this.

[RedMagic]

It would be us they ended their trophy drought against wouldn't it. I had hoped that they would win nothing and would get relegated, at least until their murderous, human rights denying owners got bored and buggered off.

Pre the takeover Newcastle were one of the clubs I wouldn't have minded lifting a trophy, just so long it wasn't against us. However given it was against us, combined with their fans doing f-all to even give the impression they really didn't want the Saudis to take them over, it is doubly aggravating, well at least to me at any rate.

I can't believe some of you seem to be perfectly fine with Newcastle winning a cup, albeit frustratingly at our expense. I get the impression that some of you would be fine with us getting taken over by a similar bunch to Newcastle's overlords just so long as it meant getting rid of FSG, akin to the Geordies just being glad that Ashley finally relinquished his control of the club.

[Crimson Dynasty]

Hope you feel better after that.. Reads like an inner monologue.. While much of it is sarcastic and the points valid - none of it excuses the facts.. Klopp was't backed sufficiently - and almost all of us know it. That is wht despite Peps perenial winning Klopp gets plaudits at the same level or more.


Thank you mr Henry - Thank you so much for not pocketing some of that £140 million

Very good of you

So we at least agree on the very basic baseline fact that he(Klopp) was indeed backed, .....but probably not sufficiently (.....we can probably even agree on that count too - even though we may argue and differ on to what degree actually counts as "sufficient"), and that FSG for all their shortcomings, ills and failings (....and there are PLENTY of them...) DO in fact deserve 'some' credit for the success we've experienced in the last 15 years.

Maybe not a whole lot. Sure.

We agree on the basic "the sky is blue" facts and the baseline premise.
We're just haggling on the price now.

To wit.....

Thank you mr Henry - Thank you so much for not pocketing some of that £140 million

Virgil Dan Dijk - £75 million
Allisson Becker - £66.8
Fabinho Henrique Tavares - £39 million
________________________________
Total - £150.8 million

Philippe Coutinho fee from Barcelona - £142 million


.....hhmmm....

Wierd.

It almost seems like FSG actually didn't pocket some of that £142 million, but actually added ('their own???) money to that, to get those three players in the two windows around that sale to make it possible to get 3 players I think we can all agree were mighty pivotal to Klopp's success (...and in the case of two of them, possibly even to Slot's) in his time here - including the Champions' League and Premier League win and the other two trips to the final(......well.....one trip. The other final was before we got the three).

But what do I know?
My calculator might be broken and it's been acting all crazy recently.

But looking outside the window it seems the sky is still blue outside. So that's safe, at least.

(.....at least, I hope it is. It's cloudy, really......so you never know.)

[Steveo]

Yea... ok


Are you suggesting that the balance Klopp was granted during his tenure doesn’t make an absolute mockery of what he achieved? This is an important one.. I'll wait..

Can you point to another manager in any of the top 3 leagues who inherited a mid table squad - was granted a similar level of transfer balance - relative to his rivals - and went on to 3 CL finals - winning a domestic league title and coming so close on 2 other occasions ?

IF you can - then he deserves similar legendary miracle worker status surely.. ?


I will list out where our net spend sits for the decade onto a squad that finished with 60pts in 6th - just 2 points ahead of Southampton - 8pts ahead of Stoke City who had beaten us 6:1 in Gerrard’s last game.

Man United €1,385 Billion
Man City €1,110 Billion
Chelsea €1,048 Billion
Arsenal €942
Spurs €688
Newcastle €579
West Ham €578
Liverpool €471


8th..

That’s on a squad that finished:
8 points behind United
13 points behind Arsenal
17 points behind Man City
23 points behind Chelsea.

So When I say he could and should have been backed far better - I think we all know with certainty that he could. He would not have had to sell to buy - and we would not have suffered the repeating boom and bust that comes along with overstretching a smaller squad than is needed.

[Crimson Dynasty]

Yea... ok


Are you suggesting that the balance Klopp was granted during his tenure doesn’t make an absolute mockery of what he achieved? This is an important one.. I'll wait..

No.
I did not at all suggest anything remotely resembling that, so I'm afraid you'll be waiting a while

It's already been conceded (thought it really doesn't need conceding or even openly stating at this nor any point...), that Klopp was and is a superlative manager who achieved vastly more than his contemporaries with a fraction of the resources that his contemporaries and rivals did during his tenure here.

I don't know why you keep arguing like anyone is disputing or debating that fact.

But likewise, would you be willing to concede that he didn't do this on ZERO help at all from FSG?
You've kind of got part of the way there, but seem to want to constantly keep backsliding to your default "FSG - USELESS/Klopp deserves all the glory" stance.


Again.... I agree, that they could/should have done more.
But I'm realistic about the fact that they're not Saudi Oilmen or wealthy Emiratis with bottomless pockets - and I place that in perspective of what level of help to expect they'll grant or give any manager.

Unlike you, it seems.

Can you point to another manager in any of the top 3 leagues who inherited a mid table squad - was granted a similar level of transfer balance - relative to his rivals - and went on to 3 CL finals - winning a domestic league title and coming so close on 2 other occasions ?

IF you can - then he deserves similar legendary miracle worker status surely.. ?


I will list out where our net spend sits for the decade onto a squad that finished with 60pts in 6th - just 2 points ahead of Southampton - 8pts ahead of Stoke City who had beaten us 6:1 in Gerrard’s last game.

Man United €1,385 Billion
Man City €1,110 Billion
Chelsea €1,048 Billion
Arsenal €942
Spurs €688
Newcastle €579
West Ham €578
Liverpool €471


8th..

That’s on a squad that finished:
8 points behind United
13 points behind Arsenal
17 points behind Man City
23 points behind Chelsea.

So When I say he could and should have been backed far better - I think we all know with certainty that he could. He would not have had to sell to buy - and we would not have suffered the repeating boom and bust that comes along with overstretching a smaller squad than is needed.

All of those clubs and managers managing them you've listed that vastly outspent us - with the exception of City and Arsenal have consistently finished below us over the past several seasons that Klopp has been in charge.

And YES, Klopp's nous and tactical genius had a lot to do with that.
But there's also the fact (Which is yet another thing you seem to be unwilling to concede) that we're simply a better run club than the rest of them that splunk billions on players and have nothing to show for it.

Gee....."better run" by whom, I wonder?

But maybe you're right.
Maybe we'd be better off with owners who splurge hundreds of millions to billions on the Antony's and the Madueke's and the Casemiro's and the Havertz's......just so we can say we have owners that are spending as much as City is and are doing a great job owning the club (....even though they're running it like idiots. Ask United/Chelsea/Spurs/..and even some Arsenal fans just how well you think their clubs are being run at the moment by their high-spending owners. When they can spare a moment from their respective "Levy OUT!!!!/Boehly OUT!!!/Glazers OUT!!! protests, that is.)


You're not going to get an argument from me over the assertion that FSG can, and indeed should do a much better job running this club in terms of backing the manager with more funds, and being on top of refreshing and squad earlier than before players lose their legs to age and injuries.

But you're not going to get the sort of denialism from me that seems to want to believe that they've been a net negative for this club and deserve little to absolutely none of the credit for the success we've experienced.

We simply don't have Klopp (or Slot) without them - whether you like it or not.
And for whatever success you want to totally attribute to either of them, none of it happens without FSG signing on the line to hire them here in the first place or give them the bare minimum to have some of the best players of their generations and their respective positions to put on a red shirt playing for them.

[Steveo]

Good

rant continued:

Convenient for those who say Chelsea finished below us that Roman soon after returning from exile and before being ripped from Chelsea just as he had them on the cusp and virtually back to their pomp. Don’t forget with Tuchel they were Champions of Europe and the world more recently than us.

I know many struggle with the facts and memory but they are there for all to see. Klopp was the difference maker which I think we all know isn’t a debate.

When our owners spend like misers certain ‘folk’ cite how well we did under Klopp - and credit them as though it was by design - while City and Chelsea who have each massively out performed us on FSG’s watch spend fortunes it’s cheating - unfair - when United do it with US owners and fail it’s fine and funny - ditto Todd dollar boys at Chelsea.

Small time is what I call FSG - because small time is what FSG are. Small time on the ground - 2 stands instead of redeveloped ground. - half a stadium - cheap build both imo - and the low level future proofing all lumbered on the club to pay for.. & fast…& with interest while competing - is poor form from those making record profits.

When the truth about the deal to hand Liverpool FC from one bunch of US cowboys to their mates - speculators - finally comes out - they will have danced off into the sunset with $billions to add to the $billions they have already made via the leverage used from their biggest asset.They have already diluted their percentage - we don’t even know who or what Redbird even is.

Yes we won a title and another CL and came close on other occasions - as Liverpool FC has done so often in its history - and the same manager that made that happen in this era - imo is - 90% or more responsible for us being on the cusp of another. And it’s no thanks to our owners. They who are turning the ground into a day trippers paradise - passion dwindling - atmosphere waning - corporate hospitality rising - as the money ramps up and up in the TV revenue generating….merchandise the shite out of everything….Yankee Doodle…live shows at HT…shytefest that is coming to - you - me and everyone whether we like it or not.

The future fan lives over seas - never goes to a game…unless it’s a holiday… Buys the kit - pays the subscription to watch on the telly… and tells us all that Liverpool FC just had to accept it. It’s the modern game .Its all a business these days… We are just customers…!


Load of 💩

[Nineteenx]

Good luck to the Geordies

[CCTV]

So we at least agree on the very basic baseline fact that he(Klopp) was indeed backed, .....but probably not sufficiently (.....we can probably even agree on that count too - even though we may argue and differ on to what degree actually counts as "sufficient"), and that FSG for all their shortcomings, ills and failings (....and there are PLENTY of them...) DO in fact deserve 'some' credit for the success we've experienced in the last 15 years.

Maybe not a whole lot. Sure.

We agree on the basic "the sky is blue" facts and the baseline premise.
We're just haggling on the price now.

To wit.....




Virgil Dan Dijk - £75 million
Allisson Becker - £66.8
Fabinho Henrique Tavares - £39 million
________________________________
Total - £150.8 million

Philippe Coutinho fee from Barcelona - £142 million


.....hhmmm....

Wierd.

It almost seems like FSG actually didn't pocket some of that £142 million, but actually added ('their own???) money to that, to get those three players in the two windows around that sale to make it possible to get 3 players I think we can all agree were mighty pivotal to Klopp's success (...and in the case of two of them, possibly even to Slot's) in his time here - including the Champions' League and Premier League win and the other two trips to the final(......well.....one trip. The other final was before we got the three).

But what do I know?
My calculator might be broken and it's been acting all crazy recently.

But looking outside the window it seems the sky is still blue outside. So that's safe, at least.

(.....at least, I hope it is. It's cloudy, really......so you never know.)

Virgil €84.65 mill
Alisson €62.5 mill
Fabinho €45 mill

Total €192.15 mill

Coutinho €135 mill

€57.15 mill shortfall

Steveo is still fixated on the 1 decent fee FSG recouped from a star player under Klopp. We've spent a lot more since.

A player worth €90 mill by the Pogba fee that Klopp laughed at during this era & by transfermarkt valuation, sold to a desperate Barca trying to recover from Neymars departure to PSG.
https://www.transfermarkt.com/philippe-coutinho/marktwertverlauf/spieler/80444

Ox, Keita, Origi, Firmino & a fee for Mane brought in €32 million.
€192.83 million spent on bringing them in to the club.

The club is in a good position. Klopps 2nd rebuild almost complete.

Here's
https://tomkinstimes.com/2015/11/klopp-reversing-the-laws-of-gravity/