Brexit thread 2 Electric Boogaloo

[Balinkay]

some say far more corrupt

Why doesn't that surprise me.

[stevie harkness]

The chancellor of the exchequer threatens to quit if Boris gets in, Sir Alan Duncan of the foreign office already just did quit in protest against Boris, it's a bit fking late in the day to realize he might get in, it's been going on for ages

[OhhEnnEmm]

It's sad to see that our country is being "run" by these toddlers with their tit-for-tat mentalities and petty, pocket-filling ways...

I'm sick of being lied to. Do we really have much of a choice? If we only ever get to choose between a bunch of bad options (liars and corrupt mf's) then how on earth is this an effective democracy?

There is no system that favours the everyday people. They just create the illusion of choice in order to keep us all ticking along in order and making them money. IT'S DISGUSTING.

[redebreck]

It's sad to see that our country is being "run" by these toddlers with their tit-for-tat mentalities and petty, pocket-filling ways...

I'm sick of being lied to. Do we really have much of a choice? If we only ever get to choose between a bunch of bad options (liars and corrupt mf's) then how on earth is this an effective democracy?

There is no system that favours the everyday people. They just create the illusion of choice in order to keep us all ticking along in order and making them money. IT'S DISGUSTING.

welcome to the forum, and the real world

[CCTV]

welcome to the forum, and the real world

The real world. Left wing ideologies appeal to emotions and lack a sound basis philosophically.
People refuse to see it as they absolutely hate the idea that proper rightwing ideologies are the best.

[Balinkay]

The real world. Left wing ideologies appeal to emotions and lack a sound basis philosophically.
People refuse to see it as they absolutely hate the idea that proper rightwing ideologies are the best.

Depends on what you mean by proper right wing I guess. If it's ethnonationalists, I'm not a huge fan.

[stevie harkness]

The real world. Left wing ideologies appeal to emotions and lack a sound basis philosophically.
People refuse to see it as they absolutely hate the idea that proper rightwing ideologies are the best.

We are emotional beings not robots (yet)

A nation is essentially made up of millions of homes.

Every home I have ever been a part of, grown up in, visited, lived in or shared, is essentially run according to a "left wing" model of family, sharing, looking after each other, every person contributing according to their ability and receiving according to their need. Every family worthy of the name operates in this way.

This then extends out into the street, villages, tribes (look how the surviving indigenous tribes of the world live)

So perhaps the problem comes when humans try to live in groups of more than a few hundred people.

Suddenly there are people we don't know, strangers, and we look at each other differently (or not at all) and treat each other differently, and loving each other and sharing is no longer 'practical' and there are profits to be had, and right wing ideologies are best for that.

[redebreck]

We are emotional beings not robots (yet)

A nation is essentially made up of millions of homes.

Every home I have ever been a part of, grown up in, visited, lived in or shared, is essentially run according to a "left wing" model of family, sharing, looking after each other, every person contributing according to their ability and receiving according to their need. Every family worthy of the name operates in this way.

This then extends out into the street, villages, tribes (look how the surviving indigenous tribes of the world live)

So perhaps the problem comes when humans try to live in groups of more than a few hundred people.

Suddenly there are people we don't know, strangers, and we look at each other differently (or not at all) and treat each other differently, and loving each other and sharing is no longer 'practical' and there are profits to be had, and right wing ideologies are best for that.

spot on, can't disagree with your logic

[CCTV]

Depends on what you mean by proper right wing I guess. If it's ethnonationalists, I'm not a huge fan.

I wouldn't say ethnonationailsm is a right or left wing ideology, more a conception of what a nation should be ethno/civic/lingual/noneofthose. Imo none of those is the worst outcome.
Think it's an area of human nature more so to a point. Though it is politicised in modern culture wars/politics. Not sure I should expand further on this issue.

[redebreck]

I wouldn't say ethnonationailsm is a right or left wing ideology, more a conception of what a nation should be ethno/civic/lingual/noneofthose. Imo none of those is the worst outcome.
Think it's an area of human nature more so to a point. Though it is politicised in modern culture wars/politics. Not sure I should expand further on this issue.

"Look after your own" comes to mind.
Household, Family, Neighbourhood, Village/Town/City, County/Area, Country. Mostly tribal if you think about it.

[CCTV]

We are emotional beings not robots (yet)

A nation is essentially made up of millions of homes.

Every home I have ever been a part of, grown up in, visited, lived in or shared, is essentially run according to a "left wing" model of family, sharing, looking after each other, every person contributing according to their ability and receiving according to their need. Every family worthy of the name operates in this way.

This then extends out into the street, villages, tribes (look how the surviving indigenous tribes of the world live)

So perhaps the problem comes when humans try to live in groups of more than a few hundred people.

Suddenly there are people we don't know, strangers, and we look at each other differently (or not at all) and treat each other differently, and loving each other and sharing is no longer 'practical' and there are profits to be had, and right wing ideologies are best for that.

I'd agree with you to a point, socialism/communism works best on very small scales. The family or the small tribe/community. But on larger scales it simply doesnt work as well and to some degree, which is the realm in which I think right and left wing ideologies are most aptly applied. On a smaller scale like families left right ideals overlap or mix.

I'd disagree that the family runs on left wing ideals. I dont know any family that redistributes its wealth by formal means to reduce inequality within the family. If we were siblings and dependent on our parents and you worked at weekends and I didn't i dont know a single family that would make you share your earnings with me. If I moaned I think the vastest majorities would say get your own job, where basic needs are met.
Do you receive or give money each week from your wage to balance out the needs of others in your immediate family ? Is it mandated or done freely ?

[stevie harkness]

I'd disagree that the family runs on left wing ideals. I dont know any family that redistributes its wealth by formal means to reduce inequality within the family. If we were siblings and dependent on our parents and you worked at weekends and I didn't i dont know a single family that would make you share your earnings with me. If I moaned I think the vastest majorities would say get your own job, where basic needs are met.
Do you receive or give money each week from your wage to balance out the needs of others in your immediate family ? Is it mandated or done freely ?

I wasn't talking about money or redistribution of wealth. I was talking about everyone having a roof over their head and food to eat and clothes to wear, "contributing according to their ability and receiving according to their need". Nobody needs money if their needs are met (unless they don't trust the future).... This is how families work, and family can extend beyond the walls of a home.

Perhaps the terms "left wing/right wing" doesn't adequately describe it so we're not talking about the same thing, but that's my sense of what left wing / right wing are. Even if deep down we know that both wings belong to the same bird. And it's a cuckoo.

When the Bushmen of the Kalahari return from a hunt they give some meat to the poor widow who contributed nothing except her prayers...why? Some mandate from the boss? tradition? honouring the ancestors? or just because it's the decent thing to do? (or because the meat is going to quickly go off in the hot sun?) whatever, their society works.

The right thing to do is to do the right thing.

[redebreck]

I wasn't talking about money or redistribution of wealth. I was talking about everyone having a roof over their head and food to eat and clothes to wear, "contributing according to their ability and receiving according to their need". Nobody needs money if their needs are met (unless they don't trust the future).... This is how families work, and family can extend beyond the walls of a home.

Perhaps the terms "left wing/right wing" doesn't adequately describe it so we're not talking about the same thing, but that's my sense of what left wing / right wing are. Even if deep down we know that both wings belong to the same bird. And it's a cuckoo.

When the Bushmen of the Kalahari return from a hunt they give some meat to the poor widow who contributed nothing except her prayers...why? Some mandate from the boss? tradition? honouring the ancestors? or just because it's the decent thing to do? (or because the meat is going to quickly go off in the hot sun?) whatever, their society works.

The right thing to do is to do the right thing.

Works well in relatively small communities because people know each other.
Once the number of people escalates, you'll always get some greedy twot who spoils it for everyone else.
And then, the politicians get involved, businessmen...

[Nineteenx]

Most of what the UK achieved was built on socialism, well, a form of socialism, it worked for years, the UK's become increasingly broken and divided since the Tories changed from a system that worked incredibly successfully to Reeganomics, the only thing thats going to arrest the Uk's slide is returning to the model that worked and binning off Reeganomics. Every single one of the major issues in the UK has been caused by Reeganomics, if you follow a model like that, you're going to end up with a society like that and thats what's caused the UK to go to shit.

Any model for society is workable but can be easily broken by excessive greed. Capitalism could work fine without the excessive greed, in the old system we had socialism and capitalism running side by side in relative harmony, there wasn't this US ideal of smashing profit margins every year, banking and investment was conducted far more responsibly and that benefited the majority, because they could save and have bank accounts that would give them reasonable returns on their savings, they could borrow money without excessive interest and it was pretty well balanced. People got paid a fair wage for fair work because there wasn't the excessive greed or number of interested parties (investors) in businesses that wanted people working for as little as possible again to try and maximise and increase their profits year on year. People doing normal jobs, that would be zero hour contract jobs in today's Tory society could buy a house or get a council house in their early twenties, have 2 or 3 kids and feed and clothe them. Obsolesence and the witholding of the newest technology only to release it in phases a year to 18 months after each next higher tech model wasn't anywhere like as rife.

It's as you saym down to what really are a few very very greedy bastards who want more money than they can ever spend and are quite happy to see billions of other people suffer to achieve that

[RedNoodle]

There will always be a few "greedy barstewards" who will want more and more even if that's at the expense of the less fortunate, namely because it's human nature to want more and because there will always be those who have faulty 'moral compasses. That is why true socialism will not work. You need a system which allows for personal freedom, individual goals etc but also makes sure that those most in need are taken care of and given ample opportunity themselves to be given the means and freedom to pursue their own individual goals.

The trouble is that there is too big a disparity between "the haves and the have nots" and also that hard truths/the greater good are being ignored in favour of societies where it's more important to not upset anyone, rather than discuss/act upon 'hard/painful truths', especially when it's those occupying the 'bottom rungs' of society are those being most adversely affected.

There is a time for a variety of political stances/ideologies. Rigidly sticking to anyone one ideology is in my opinion a bad thing no matter which system is in place. I've never liked any kind of "one size fits all" approach.