Brexit thread 2 Electric Boogaloo

[redebreck]

As usual, the politicians may manipulate the laws to suit themselves rather than the population.
Too many corrupt, dishonest politicians and people in power in this nation. Problem is, there could well be as many running the EU.
Question is, how do we change politics so that corruption is reduced or preferably eliminated?

[stevie harkness]

Question is, how do we change politics so that corruption is reduced or preferably eliminated?

Get a guy and a few barrels of gunpowder...

I was reading about a community in Guatemala where if you want to be elected to govern then you must give away your wealth which then provides a week long banquet party to feed the poor and disadvantaged, having given away your wealth means you start from scratch and so you have a vested interest in the society being a success. And if it is a success then you'll make your wealth back again after your stint in office, if you think you have what it takes to be a leader that is...

[RedNoodle]

Money and power corrupts, from the very bottom of society to the very top. The rich and powerful have always prospered off of the backs of the poor and powerless and that will continue to be the case for centuries to come, if not longer.

The problem at the moment is that we're living in the most selfish age ever where more people than ever are out for number one and number one alone.

[Nineteenx]

As usual, the politicians may manipulate the laws to suit themselves rather than the population.
Too many corrupt, dishonest politicians and people in power in this nation. Problem is, there could well be as many running the EU.
Question is, how do we change politics so that corruption is reduced or preferably eliminated?

Elect a Labour Gov, pretty simple

I can list the unreasonable put perfectly understandable reasons a lot of MPs and very wealthy people are so objectionable to Corbyn and why he constantly gets so much unsubstantiated bad press from media owned and run by billionaires or laden with close Tory allies like Cameron did with the BBC

1. He wants to make MPs honest, curb foreign donors, curb donations for votes, curb milking expenses and curb second jobs and jobs for votes most current MPs are neoliberal types who learned politics was 'a good gig' at Uni and are only in it for gravy train politics and removing all those things makes it no longer a good gig for them

2. He wants to make the billionaires pay their taxes, he wants to increase their taxes and crack down on and potentially jail all those dodging taxes using offshore accounts and companies using offshore headquarters to avoid paying tax

3. He wants to remove all privatisation from all our public services, 100's of billions of tax payers money is syphoned out of the system into the hands of billionaires who don't pay any tax on it every year

4. Rather than flog off our NHS to US private insurance firms and do a non mutually beneficial trade deal with US caving in on drugs prices to big US pharmas which will cost us an extra 25 bn a year (EU SMA costing us 13 bn a year) He wants to buy the rights to produce drugs with expired patents and produce them in the UK and sell them at a fraction of the cost the big US pharmas do and fully fund our NHS

These are all the real reasons opposition Mps, the media, the billionaires who have been running things for the last 40 yrs and even Mps in his own party who only signed up for 'gravy train politics' have a collective stance of ABC (anyone but Corbyn)

Bernie Sanders is running for US President and wants to do all the things in the US Corbyn wants to in the UK and he's constantly attacked for the same reasons, the only difference being, Bernie is Jewish, so when he rightly criticises Israeli Gov for actrocities against Palestinians they can't accuse him of being antisemitic, which it clearly isn't anyway and also there is a lot more free press in the US compared to the UK, media that will actually allow democracy to function and give people all the facts from both sides and let them make their own mind up, yes there's a few big players who are massively biased to the people in 1-4 because those people own them, but there is a lot more free press

[RedNoodle]

You should never believe anything any politician says, especially when it comes to their dealings with big businesses, namely because they often have vested interests and will tend to do whatever they can to safeguard them, often resulting in doing they exact opposite of what they should be doing and what they said they'd do.

If anyone seriously thinks that any Government is suddenly going to get tough on big businesses (including those who make big donations to the party in power), they really heed to give their head a wobble.

The reason many politicians want to remain in the EU is because of the exact opposite of what was mentioned in point 1, namely that almost all politicians want to ride the gravy train, and they'll do whatever they can (including completely ignore/destroy democratic process when it suits them) to keep themselves riding the gravy train for as long as possible.

[Nineteenx]

You should never believe anything any politician says, especially when it comes to their dealings with big businesses, namely because they often have vested interests and will tend to do whatever they can to safeguard them, often resulting in doing they exact opposite of what they should be doing and what they said they'd do.

If anyone seriously thinks that any Government is suddenly going to get tough on big businesses (including those who make big donations to the party in power), they really heed to give their head a wobble.

The reason many politicians want to remain in the EU is because of the exact opposite of what was mentioned in point 1, namely that almost all politicians want to ride the gravy train, and they'll do whatever they can (including completely ignore/destroy democratic process when it suits them) to keep themselves riding the gravy train for as long as possible.

You see this is where people get it wrong

Labour do not have donors funding the party, Corbyn got rid of all crony donors who expect their voting intention for donations, the Labour party is funded by it's members and donations from it's members during GE campaigns. Corbyn and Labour shadow cabinet are the few honest politicans in politics for the right reasons who don't have crony donors

Tories are funded by hedge funds
Libdems are funded by many of the same backers as the Tories, because, well, they're also Tories
Brexit Party are funded by Bannon

Trump, Bannon, Johnson, Cummings and Farage are all in bed with Putin and Russia and their combined aim is for the UK to cease trading with the EU entirely to try and enable Trump's desired trade war against the EU, which would benefit Russia and the US but not the UK

Trump was elected courtesy of Russian interference in US election
Brexit party MEP's recently voted against EU special powers to stop Russian interference in UK and other EU nations elections, Mr UK sovereign law wants to allow Russian interference in UK election?
Cummings is under investigation over the 3 years he lived in Russia after graduating from Oxford and some very dodgy pro Putin characters he closely associated with during that time
Johnson is currently sat on an M15 report about Russian interference in the EU ref and collusion in interfering in Ge 2017 and the coming one

[RedNoodle]

Nineteen, without dissecting your whole post, if you think that the Labour party has no donors or is 'poor' in comparison to the Tories, I suggest you go and update your knowledge on the subject.

[Nineteenx]

Nineteen, without dissecting your whole post, if you think that the Labour party has no donors or is 'poor' in comparison to the Tories, I suggest you go and update your knowledge on the subject.

I suggest you do, Corbyn kicked all the crony donors out, some of the Blairite Mps take crony donations individually, a lot of them from ppl wanting them to disrupt the party with their made up AS claims

[RedNoodle]

In 2017 the Labour party raised £55.8m, £10m more than the Conservatives.

Labour members, who number about 550,000, generated £16.1m in subs for their party in 2017. A further £18.2m came via donations, partly from online campaigns. As the party’s annual report highlights, on one day alone, during last year’s general election campaign, Labour was able to raise £500,000.

The party’s traditional paymasters, the trade unions, have fallen in financial importance. Fees from affiliations amounted to a relatively modest £6.2m, although the union Unite, led by key Corbyn supporter Len McCluskey, remains the party’s biggest single donor and unions continue to contribute millions in donations.

[CCTV]

Johnson IS the establishment, he needs removing

Democracy? Johnson? You are having a laugh aren't you?

I'm of this point of view

Cameron is to blame for all the delay and everything being so problematic because he didn't to and risk or legality assessments prior to giving ppl a vote to leave

A lot of people voted to leave with a deal and not no deal because a lot really are gullible enough to believe everything Johnson promised them in the EU Ref

A lot of ppl thought Remain was a forgone conclusion and didn't turn out to vote with some even making a protest vote

Johnson's repeated claims of "The will of 17.4m ppl" is entirely false because 17.4m didn't vote for no deal

In the UK a 'Term' for Gov lasts 5 years unless the Gov calls the election earlier

In 2017 millions of people had changed their minds from how they voted just 2 years earlier in 2015

In 2017 54% of people voted for a parties either ruling out no deal or with a remain stance, 44% voted Tory, although they were thought to be negotiating a deal at that time. even if all the 44% who voted Tory were for no deal, it was still blindingly obvious that the majority did not want or give any mandate for a no deal Brexit

Considering the length of a 'term' and how many millions changed their minds between 2015 and 2017 and that 3 years have passed since the referendum, the only reasonable democratic way of resolving Brexit is to let the people have the final say

The US model the UK has followed for 40 years is very broken and we desperately need to move away from it. The money the UK pay to the EU is a drop in the ocean compared to the amount of taxpayers money that's syphoned out of the system through privatisation each year which is 100's of billions

The term no deal is wto terms.
People voted to leave the eu which is essentially a single market and customs union.

Cameron gave the vote, the outcomes were known at the time. It would be a seismic shift in the landscape.

No deal Brexit has been predicted as less risky to the economy than a Corbyn premiership.
Today due to bojo & co actually taking some action to prepare the forecast for a no deal Brexit is down significantly than it was last year.

I think people are entitled to vote outside of economic opinion/forecast.
If Corbyn won the ge and the result was contested that people didnt truly understand their vote and the even greater economic risk him as PM presents, I think you'd see this more fairly.

Youd prattle on about how it would be beneficial in the long run and question the city of London, big banking and multinationals desire/predictions.

If you followed the financial establishment youd vote Tory and remain presently.

You cant include 4 million labour leave voters in your remain argument off the general election. It's ridiculous.

The current model should have fallen in 2008/9 but the eu/Germany was intent on propping it up.
The last model had too much power in one direction, this model too much in the other direction. Some meeting in the middle might have been desirable as both models have intrinsic faults they produce that leads to economic collapse.

Thanks to the eu policy and ECB, the eu has seen itself lose serious ground to the USA, Russia and China over the last decade. Britain due to the pound has been able to escape the effect to a greater extent.

I think we have serious differences on the eu.
Just look at its head honchos FFs.

[CCTV]

Lol I do NOT think that, I do know my conclusions I drew as a 12/13 year old that adopting the US social and economic model, selling council homes for votes and privatisation were the road to the ruination of the UK were absolutely correct

You get a shit load of absolute whoppers posting RW crap on twatter and FB about how everything is the EU's fault and having followed it since I formed my beliefs and watched it turn to shit for the reasons I thought it would for the last 36 years it's really easy to pull it apart. Long threads about the EU gave this, that and the other company a loan to move to x, y or z and you're like ok, rewind 30 odd years and work your way forward and you'll see how a lack of investment in Uk business, poor living standards, poverty wages, tax breaks for crony donors instead of tax breaks for companies offering long term investment to create jobs with dedicated 'paying' development programs for a highly skilled workforce and increasing levels of stress fucked UK productivity levels, skills levels and industry

Really need a Corbyn Gov, Labour are the only party who are offering a move away from the broken model with sensible plans to. I'm not living on cloud cuckoo land thinking it won't be hard or take time, it took us 40 yrs to get where we are from where we were, it will make a difference to a lot of the most vulnerable immediately, but it's going to take 3 or 4 terms to really fix things, need to do what the Tories did and at the very least successfully change the model to the extent that any Gov that follows (God forbid) can't easily undo what's been done and has to follow the new model

I've seen Owen Jones cited as having stated in his book chavs that in the first 5 years of eu membership that 1/3 of manufacturing jobs left the UK for cheaper labour markets.
Having taken a quick look at wikipedia it seems that during this timeframe labour formed the government.
What do you recall from those years ? Is Jones incorrect on his research.

The answers Corbyn is proposing are ott imo. He seems like a reasonable enough git imo, but utterly powerless with the MPs in the party.
It's a pity he couldn't have ousted them and taken the party back from Blair and at the same time quash some of the identitarians in his party.

He and Sanders have some grandiose ideas that are the same pie in the sky stuff that lefties now bemoan after voting in the benevolent Tony Blair and the president of Peace Obama.

[CCTV]

You see this is where people get it wrong

Labour do not have donors funding the party, Corbyn got rid of all crony donors who expect their voting intention for donations, the Labour party is funded by it's members and donations from it's members during GE campaigns. Corbyn and Labour shadow cabinet are the few honest politicans in politics for the right reasons who don't have crony donors

Tories are funded by hedge funds
Libdems are funded by many of the same backers as the Tories, because, well, they're also Tories
Brexit Party are funded by Bannon

Trump, Bannon, Johnson, Cummings and Farage are all in bed with Putin and Russia and their combined aim is for the UK to cease trading with the EU entirely to try and enable Trump's desired trade war against the EU, which would benefit Russia and the US but not the UK

Trump was elected courtesy of Russian interference in US election
Brexit party MEP's recently voted against EU special powers to stop Russian interference in UK and other EU nations elections, Mr UK sovereign law wants to allow Russian interference in UK election?
Cummings is under investigation over the 3 years he lived in Russia after graduating from Oxford and some very dodgy pro Putin characters he closely associated with during that time
Johnson is currently sat on an M15 report about Russian interference in the EU ref and collusion in interfering in Ge 2017 and the coming one

Oh dear, Russia is a mighty country but theres a lot of bs about it.

It's a very lefty idea to say look at the xenophobic righties, then prattle on paranoid about Russians and Americans.

Heres a list of people accused of being Russian agents by Hillary Clinton....
Julian Assange - after he leaked on liberals
Jill Stein- the green party presidential candidate who she claims cost her the election in 2016. Despite reality testing with facts.
Tulsi Gabbard a Democrat who opposes the interventionist regime change wars of Blair Bush Cameron Clinton Obama
Bill Binney analyst who has claimed/proved the Russian hack was not possible and the leak was internal, links to seth rich who died in mysterious circumstances.

Corbyn rightly questioned the skripal findings, he had contracted a toxin left his home went to the park and then a restaurant.
The table he sat at had to be destroyed, but the children who on cctv/video he gave bread to by hand and fed the ducks with it, whereby the kids touched their mouths none of them got sick. Haskell has been on the record as saying she presented trump with what would seem to be fabricated photos of sick children and dead ducks.
It's a lame story as far as I can tell, if the security services of a large nation come after you, it's more likely you'll be robbed and murdered, or suicided in a field or after you pack your belongings to go on the run.
Same with the chemical attacks in Syria, winning the war, inspectors due and allegedly then decide to use chemical weapons. Result more NATO bombings. Daily mail has scrubbed stories from its online service whereby they had stories about how these weapons had been previously intercepted in Turkey iirc for the non-Assad militias.

Youd have to believe that Russia is antagonizing and looking for a cold war. Yet the trend of aggressions seems to suggest that it was Iran and then Russia to follow for interventions and regime change.

Corbyn to his credit can see the folly and underlying threats this ideology presents.
I think he had to defend himself from being a Russian shill ?

The Russian bots, later determined as Venezuelan bots by Twitter when the needs must, played fook all of a role in the us elections.
The money spent was minimal and the impact of such measures is weak. It's quite possible they were a Democrat ploy, since one Democrat rep has been found to have created his one bots already for such purposes. The real damage to Clinton was when she had to defend deleting emails, dealing with Wikileaks and when she attacked trump for his comments in the debate about pussy grabbing, and he replied about bill and the rape allegations, the women who claimed she was more vicious than him and a few other citations in this area. Christopher Hitchens has spoken about this aspect of the Clinton's a few times and how they treated these women.

The EU/Germany anti-Russian measures include nordstream 2 and using Russian gas for electrical supply.
Sanctions havent worked against Russia either and presently Macron, the eu and trump are all trying to work away at the Russian and China relationship.
Due to mismanagement it's quite possible that China and Russia will become more dominant than the eu and USA alliance.
The eu and usa relationship looks more likely to be volatile and collapse presently.

NATO essentially has overextended itself in the middle east and brought economic and societal threats onto itself.

[dicko1969]

1. An ageing uk population

2. A lack of UK skilled people , because of lack of investment into the uk education system.

3. Extremely high costs for uk students to become doctors, dentists, engineers.

4. Lack of support for UK families, if you have a large uk family you are penalised, lack of cheap nanny system, and same people will ... ah shouldn't have had such a big family.

5. Lack of social support, and council housing for UK families.

It's all called lack of UK GOVERNMENT planning, investment, and who gets the blame ... Europe and immigration.

And the uk trying to get skilled labour on the cheap.

LOL

[Nineteenx]

1. An ageing uk population

2. A lack of UK skilled people , because of lack of investment into the uk education system.

3. Extremely high costs for uk students to become doctors, dentists, engineers.

4. Lack of support for UK families, if you have a large uk family you are penalised, lack of cheap nanny system, and same people will ... ah shouldn't have had such a big family.

5. Lack of social support, and council housing for UK families.

It's all called lack of UK GOVERNMENT planning, investment, and who gets the blame ... Europe and immigration.

And the uk trying to get skilled labour on the cheap.

LOL

Can't argue with any of that, it's been my mantra for 36 years, so I was obviously made up when The Economist of all papers put out an article this week that for capitalism to work it needs a robust welfare system, in the UK, the Tories, including Blair have spent 40 years trying to destroy it.

They piss me off with their use of the 'Heroes of WW2' as a right wing nationalist thing. Having fought and lived through the horrors of war our 'heroes of WW2' knew better than anyone the value of looking after each other and elected a Labour Gov to build a social and economic model that did that, including forming the NHS, watchig Remembrance Sunday made me even more determined to honour those people by fighting for a UK Labour Government to rebuild the society and model they wanted for the UK.

It is absolutely shocking that right now we're at the point we were at after years of war in that respect, scandalous, we're in a post war situation of needing to rebuild and remodel our society and economic model because of what 40 years of Tories has done to the UK, they did it, it beggars belief.

[dicko1969]

Yeah 19x. You take care mate.